G-man69 Posted September 19, 2021 Author Share Posted September 19, 2021 (edited) Hi all, You were kind enough to help me with my original enquiry above, and I'm hoping that you can help me again, . For anyone that has read the posts above you will know that I have little, or no real knowledge about railways, so I apologise for asking what might seem a daft question, . I have started a second 00/H0 scale diorama, again on an A4 sized base, but this time actually incorporating a locomotive and a carriage...see image below of progress thus far...so I don't feel such a fraud asking for your help this time, . For anyone interested, the building façade, quay walls, steps and cobbles are all made from DAS with the stonework scribed into it. However, my question is this...would all of the ‘chassis’ (not sure what the lower part of rolling stock is called, ) be painted the same colour as the main body? I imagine that the wheels would not be painted, but would be dirty, though I presume the rims would be shiny if they were in regular use? Thanks in advance, and cheers, , G Edited September 19, 2021 by G-man69 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJS1977 Posted September 19, 2021 Share Posted September 19, 2021 On most locomotives, the frames would be black (as they were difficult to keep clean). However some express locos around the beginning of the 20th century had red frames, and there were possibly other colours. Wheels would generally be unpainted or painted black, but again some railways (and industrial owners) did things differently. As you say, wheel rims on a loco in regular use would be polished. The valve gear (rods linking the cylinders to the wheels) would generally be polished metal, although some railways painted them. The locomotive in question in your model (Lancashire & Yorkshire Railway 'Pug' saddletank) would generally have been black with polished wheel rims and motions throughout its ownership with L&YR, LMS and BR. However, if the loco was sold into industrial use, its new owner would have painted it however they liked. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingEdwardII Posted September 19, 2021 Share Posted September 19, 2021 1 hour ago, G-man69 said: would all of the ‘chassis’ be painted the same colour as the main body? No, not in all cases. In your example, the thing that does not look right is actually the 16T mineral wagon. They were painted a BR freight grey on the bodywork (bauxite brown if vacuum fitted, rarer). When pristine they were a lot lighter than you're showing in your diorama and usually had a white diagonal stripe on one side plus some lettering on the lower sides. Usually they were heavily "weathered" in use with rust and peeling paintwork in ever varying quantities. Bachmann sell their OO versions with various amounts of weathering. Eric Kemp has a selection of beauties on his site here: https://erickemp.smugmug.com/BR-16T-Mineral-Wagons/ One other item to note from Eric's pictures is the flash of white (usually stained to grey) on the end of the brake lever. He also has an exceptional almost pristine vacuum braked example in there, which is a simply gorgeous colour. The chassis was painted black when new and it usually stayed that colour although the paintwork soon lost its lustre. There were occasionally spots picked out in white on the chassis as Eric's pictures show. I lived in South Wales as a child and remember trainloads of these wagons regularly rumbling past the end of our street. Happy modelling! Yours, Mike. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted September 19, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 19, 2021 I don't think many of us, and certainly not me, can teach you much about modelling these diarama scenes, G, you are making very high quality stuff and seem to have got the basics of the railway side of things. The Quayside diarama suggests the 1950s or 60s, the dating being mostly provided by the wagon. All-steel 16 ton mineral wagons were trialled by the LMS in the late 30s and produced during the war, and then in massive quantities by the nationalised BR throughout the late 40s and the entire 1950s. Livery, as has been stated, was grey body (bauxite for the few that were built new as vaccuum fitted, and those that recieved vacuum brakes later in their lives). The diagonal white stripe designated the end that had the end door, used for tipping into ships, and the wagon number was placed in the bottom left hand corner of the side, with the rated tonnage, 16T, above it. A tare weight was shown in the right hand corner. !6 tons, and what do you get, was the load capacity of the wagon, which weighed 5 tons empty, so a loaded wagon weighed 21tons. Some wagons had a 'V' marking on the side doors which indicated bottom opening hopper doors. There were several 'diagrams' of similar wagons with minor differences, and I can do no better than refer you to Paul Bartlett's website, (hmrspaul on the forum) for photos and details. There were also slope sided versions for easier unloading in tipplers, and a version for the SNCF, which had a wagon shortage in the period following the Normandy landings and for some years after. These had the side opening 'cupboard' type doors preferred in France, and were given back to what was by that time the Ministry of Transport when the SNCF replaced them with longer wheelbased air braked wagons in 1950; the MoT gave them to British Railways. The cupboard doors were unpopular with British customers but they lasted a further 20 years or so in service. The handbrake lever end was painted white, but rapidly discoloured in service, often with rust staining. The actual shade of grey varied as well, as post war shortages of material including paint were still a factor well into the 50s and the workshops used what they could get and mixed it for economy. The wagons could, when new, be anything from a quite light grey, sometimes with a blueish tinge, to a dark warship sort of grey. Underframes, brake gear, buffers, couplings, wheels, anything below the body, were black but the works plate would have it's raised border and lettering picked out in white. Check out the mineral wagons thread in 'Musings and Miscellany', where there are numerous photos. Transfers are available from several sources but I don't think anyone will mind if I point you in the direction of Cambridge Custom Tranfers, no connection happy customer. The loco is an ex Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway 'pug', built for dock shunting on the tight curves at Liverpool, Manchester, and Hull docks. In later life they could also be found doing this work at Gloucester, Bristol, and Swansea. The model is the Kitmaster/Airfix/Dapol/Kitmaster again plastic kit, dimensionally fine but there are detail differences between the kit as supplied and the real locos, mostly the buffers, which were wooden 'dumb' buffers, blocks of wood rather than the steel sprung buffers in housings on the model, a common feature of small locomotives (especially industrials), and the slide bars, piston rods, and crosshead were enclosed in a sheet steel casing, a safety feature on a loco that worked alongside roadways and in areas where non-railway staff were in the vicinity. The wagon is possibly a plastic kit from the same manufacturer as well, and is to scale and well detailed. You've modelled yours loaded, but a minor drawback to this kit, and some manufacturers' RTR versions as well, is that there is no internal detail; there should be the outline of the side and top side doors at least, should you wish to model them empty. Avoid RTR models from Dapol or Hornby as these have an incorrect generic chassis with the wrong wheelbase. Bachmann, and Peco Parkside kits, are fine. The 3 link plastic couplings in the kits are correct for the loco, but not the wagon; these were all TTBOMK built with 'instanter' couplings, a type of 3-link with a shaped centre link that could be coupled in a long or short position, long for easy shunting and short for faster running with less 'slack' in the train. Better versions than the kit coupling for the loco and 'proper' instanters for the wagon can be found from Smith's Models website; they include finer drawhooks as well. I would also suggest replacing the buffers; there's nothing better or cheaper than real wood cut to size for the loco's dumb buffers, dipped in real creosote or similar for colouring and left outside for a few weeks to weather naturally, and whitemetal castings for the wagon buffers will give crisper detail on the housings and a finer edge to the buffer heads. Paint them and weather them in the same way as the underframe. If the scene is intended to represent WW2, check out Ministry of Supply versions of the steel wagons, but my feeling is that a 7-plank wooden version would be more likely, in a very heavily weathered and faded private owner livery. There were a couple of million of these running on Britain's railways, nobody even knew exactly how many or where they all were, and these were pooled for common use in, IIRC, 1938, with the war clearly on the horizon. Only a few hundred steel versions had been built by the outbreak of war, and even at the end they were still vastly outnumbered by the ex PO wagons, which had ordinary 3 link couplings btw. End doors were indicated by the diagonal strapping being picked out in white. And you thought coal wagons were just coal wagons! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cypherman Posted September 19, 2021 Share Posted September 19, 2021 Hi, They quite often painted the connecting rods red. This was a safety feature to make them easier to see. Just as in these picture. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hodgson Posted September 19, 2021 Share Posted September 19, 2021 (edited) Excellent scenic modelling. I particularly like those quayside warehouses. Warehouses in a small port like this would typically hold supplies needed by the boats or for storage of loads brought in by coastal shipping. Some might be ships' chandlers. Most weren't really rail-served, as goods would be man- handled on carts/taken over to boats on barrows etc. Those that were rails-served often had a doorway only just big enough to take a small 4-wheel van or open wagon and which were accessed by a wagon turntable onto a track running at 90 degrees right through the doorway. Even after such methods were abandoned the turntable and associated rails would simply be left in place. It was (probably still is) very common to find isolated lengths of old rail among the cobbles on quaysides, because track layouts evolved over time and old rail wasn't worth the cost of recovering. The type of loco you have chosen is ideal for a port - short wheelbase, only 4 wheels means it can negotiate the sharp curves usually found in such places whereas larger engines would derail. Regardless of the colour of the side rods and loco body, red buffer beams were almost universal, and all locos would have a name and/or number. Wagons also all had markings - a number, load capacity in small characters albeit perhaps only on a cast iron plate on the frame, and often but in much bigger lettering a company name or initials on the side. The track you have laid would mostly be used to convey traffic direct to/from vessels rather than these warehouses. The type of railway vehicle would depend on the nature of the goods - typically fish in vans, general supplies such as barrels or crates in open wagons or maybe lengths of timber on bolsters or in open wagons. As Johnster says, these BR standard 16T Steel mineral wagons date the scene very firmly to post WW2 when coastal shipping had largely gone - before that, coal was usually moved in 12T 7-plank wooden bodied wagons. Coal would be needed for a small steamer so it's certainly not wrong, but I think I would have chosen a 5-plank open conveying miscellaneous goods or a perhaps fish van for such a diorama, depending on what kind of vessels you envisage. As finishing touches I would suggest a little more maritime clutter - perhaps a lifebelt on a post, lengths of old rope, nets, a capstan or maybe iron rings you can use to tie up. Choice of boat would determine what kind of quayside clutter to expect - lobster pots etc perhaps most likely? Or are you thinking militarily of small naval vessels - torpedoes, small arms munitions etc as loads, with sentry boxes and barbed wire to defend the harbour? Edited September 19, 2021 by Michael Hodgson 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-man69 Posted September 19, 2021 Author Share Posted September 19, 2021 Hi all, Firstly, a big thank you in general to everyone that has taken the time to read and respond, it's much appreciated, . the images/links provided by KingEdwardII and Cypherman are going to be especially useful, thanks chaps. Secondly, I should have probably mentioned that the black is just a primer finish, so a grey for the wagon isn't a problem. However, I wish I'd spoken with you all before starting my diorama as my idea was for this to represent a small fictitious British South coast harbour at the time of Dunkirk. However, reading the above responses it sounds like my choice of coal truck might be wrong for that period. Are there any inexpensive kits of either12T 7-plank wooden bodied wagon or 5-plank open wagons, as described by Michael, for me to more accurately represent the time period? If anyone has any other information they think might be relevant to the period/location it would be gratefully received, . Thanks again to everyone, and cheers, G Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cypherman Posted September 19, 2021 Share Posted September 19, 2021 Hi G-Man, There are plenty of cheap second hand wagons on Ebay. Make sure you get the correct company for the region. Or go for a private owners wagon so that it does not really matter. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hodgson Posted September 19, 2021 Share Posted September 19, 2021 (edited) If the rolling stock is static, I would suggest you remove the unrealistic couplings if you buy a RTR wagon. During the war ordinary goods wagons like this were pooled (effectively nationalised/commandeered) so it wouldn't really matter which railway company owned wagons for Dunkirk. I'm no military historian, but most of the small boats presumably used diesel oil? Maybe an oil company tank wagon would be appropriate - or maybe they got oil drums loaded in an open? Ambulance trains were run to evacuate the casualties to other parts of the country but these would be from the passenger station not the harbour. Edited September 19, 2021 by Michael Hodgson 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingEdwardII Posted September 19, 2021 Share Posted September 19, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, G-man69 said: Are there any inexpensive kits of either12T 7-plank wooden bodied wagon PECO Parkside kits do 2 versions of a wooden 12T coal wagon: https://peco-uk.com/collections/parkside/products/rch-1923-design-12ton-coal-wagon and https://peco-uk.com/collections/parkside/products/rch-1923-design-7-plank-coal-wagon ...the second has fixed ends. You should be able to pick up one of these for £10 or so, but you will need to have paints and transfers for them. The kits have the advantage over RTR models in that you can assemble them without couplings (tension lock etc) which is probably what you need for your diorama. Alternatively, as Cypherman says, buy one on eBay. Yours, Mike. PS Since I'm a GWR fanatic, you could always base your livery for the wagon on this as used by Dapol on their 'O' gauge version : https://www.petersspares.com/Dapol-7f-071-032-7-plank-wagon-gwr-06579-o-gauge.ir Edited September 19, 2021 by KingEdwardII 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Andy Hayter Posted September 19, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 19, 2021 For a South coast port during WW2 the loco is also very improbable. Built by The Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway, they and the company were absorbed into the London, Midland and Scottish Railway - which well describes where they might have been found. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-man69 Posted September 20, 2021 Author Share Posted September 20, 2021 Hi all, And again, firstly, a big thank you for taking the time to read and respond and, even though each answer often seems to generate additional questions, your time and effort is greatly appreciated. Because this diorama is part of a group build on another site I feel obligated to build as much as possible from kits, as opposed to ready built. though I am struggling to find any at the moment. However, I notice that 'planked' wagons seem to come in anything from about 4, through to about 9 planks, would it be okay to use any 'planked' wagon for the era? Also, Andy makes the comment that the Pug is probably incorrect for the setting, so is there a small shunter that would be better for an early 1940s South coast scenario. It has to be about Pug sized as 1} the base footprint is only A4, and 2) I need to fit a couple of road vehicles into the overall picture. I apologise for all the questions, some of which probably sound a bit dumb to experienced railway modellers, but whilst I'm not pedantic about accuracy, I would like to get as much of the basics as correct as possible. Thanks again to everyone for their help thus far, and cheers, G Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingEdwardII Posted September 20, 2021 Share Posted September 20, 2021 29 minutes ago, G-man69 said: 'planked' wagons seem to come in anything from about 4, through to about 9 planks It depends on what you want to model the wagon as carrying. Coal tended to be hauled in the wagons with more planks - 7 or 8 typically in the early 1940s. Wagons with fewer planks tended to be used for other commodities, like stone, china clay and so on. Coke - even lower density than coal - often used wagons with extra planking tacked on top. However, there could be examples of smaller wagons carrying coal - so you are probably free to choose. Yours, Mike. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hodgson Posted September 20, 2021 Share Posted September 20, 2021 Wooden bodied wagons came in anything from 1 plank high to about 9, and are suitable for different types of load. Medium-height wagons (4 or 5 planks) were convenient for general merchandise, some loads needing a tarpaulin tied over the top to keep stuff dry. These generally have a drop down door used when loading, so you could use a porter's barrow to/from a platform in a goods shed. Low wagons might be used for machinery or early containers, and by permanent way departments for work on the track. 7 plank wagons were generally used for coal (perhaps a little lower prior to WW1), that taking it to the maximum weight you could safely put on two axles, but you could go a little higher with coke as it's less dense. Coal wagons usually also had a door (as does the steel mineral you currently have) but the top plank usually went full length of the wagon to reinforce its strength against the wagon bending. They were loaded by gravity but often emptied by shovelling out through the door, but some places had facilities for tipping wagons on end, hence an end door (like the steel mineral) was commonly provided. They sometimes also had trap doors in the floor for unloading by gravity (less obvious but also in the 16t Steel mineral), but that practice tended to be more a feature of the North East of England. As mentioned the LYR pug is a bit out of area but as the War Office conscripted the railways (railwaymen were a "reserved occupation"), they could and did order locos to go anywhere the military deemed necessary, perhaps more common later in the war. In the early part of the war locos tended to stay on the duties they were on, and were manned by crews who were used to them. The pug would have been ideal for this job and any physically similar loco would do. I don't think there are any suitable kits for a Southern Railway equivalent, there are some ready to run industrial locos which might be owned by a dockyard. The best suggestion I can come up with for an alternative is the slightly bigger J94 or "Austerity" 0-6-0 also produced as an Airfix/Dapol kit but currently perhaps difficult to find. However I think these started being built in quantity later in the war than Dunkirk. Various kits are available for military road vehicles, but again beware the best-known WW2 examples which would have been those produced later in the war. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hodgson Posted September 20, 2021 Share Posted September 20, 2021 Most coal wagons were rated at 12 tons before the war. During the war they were uprated to 13 tons. This was merely an administrative change because of shortages of rolling stock and other war-related use of building/maintenance resources - all that really changed was that you could overload them slightly! Railway works were producing military vehicles, armaments such as shell casings etc instead. Not sure quite when the uprating occurred. Overloading and minimal maintenance didn't do them any good of course and that's why we needed the post-war steel minerals. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cypherman Posted September 20, 2021 Share Posted September 20, 2021 Hi, The only problem I can think of for your engine is price. There are quite a few little 0-4-0 locos being produced. But A, They are Not kits and B, their price. Perhaps and I know that this may not be what you wanted you could use horses instead of an engine. It was not until the 1960's that shunting horse's finally stopped being used. I do not own these pictures and am only using them to highlight what you could use instead of a steam engine. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-man69 Posted September 20, 2021 Author Share Posted September 20, 2021 Hi all, A brilliant response, as per...your assistance has been outstanding throughout, it's been informative and friendly, and I thank you all for that, . Really appreciated seeing the images of wagons being shunted by a horse, thanks Cypherman, and I promise not to replicate them as they're not yours. I will see if I can pick up a couple of 'planked' wagon kits as I have another WW2 A4 diorama idea forming. though I have no idea what engine I might yet use on it, but for this build I think I am going to have to exercise a bit of artistic licence and use the Pug. As an aside, after the great feedback from you guys I gave the Hornby site a once over, shame not everyone uses the 'Era' classification system, would have made my choice a tad easier, . Thanks again to everyone for their kind and continued support relating to my enquiries, and cheers, G Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-man69 Posted September 20, 2021 Author Share Posted September 20, 2021 Hi all, A brief update, there were no suitable Dapol kits of 'planked' wagons, so I ended up buying both a 5 and a 3-plank 8t wagon kit from the Slater's brand. I'm hoping that, on the back of your kind help, that both of these are suitable for the WW2 era? Has anyone any experience of this manufacturers products? Cheers, G Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJS1977 Posted September 20, 2021 Share Posted September 20, 2021 They would probably still be in use in the WW2 era, but without the 'MR' lettering, as the Midland Railway ceased to exist in 1923. In terms of locos, I'd suggest a 'Terrier' 0-6-0T. Whilst these are available new from Hornby, there are plenty around secondhand, and you don't need a working one! 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hodgson Posted September 20, 2021 Share Posted September 20, 2021 Midland Railway (which had become LMS shortly after WW1) is theoretically out of area, but that doesn't matter for your purpose as wagons from all companies went all over the country anyway and as already mentioned above, "pooling" had come into force before the war. These wagons would be old by WW2 and a little run down but still serviceable. Lettering probably like this one, just not as spotless! http://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/pics/474558.html Horse shunting perfectly plausible - they could even be moved short distances by man-power using pinch bars, a quayside would be level. Or you could simply remove the loco altogether, as it would bring in the wagon, abandon it there to be unloaded/loaded and only come back when it's ready to go. Not unusual to have a few wagons just standing around for a few hours. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingEdwardII Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 12 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said: just not as spotless! Ah yes, the preservation boys love a bit of spotless - zero weathering there!! Those are the wagons - and coaches - for which a shiny gloss finish is often true to life. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 I see no one has mentioned Scalescenes for detailing parts, are they still trading Also in the past I have come across a company supplying architects with a wide range of items and materials in various scales 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-man69 Posted September 21, 2021 Author Share Posted September 21, 2021 Hi all, Another big thank you to everyone for their continued help, it is appreciated. I quite like the fact that the wagons will be a bit long in the tooth for the intended era, it means I can have a go at showing them weathered and worn. I've never painted railway elements, but being primarily a 1/35th armour modeller, bent and battered representations of items is in my DNA, . I've also started to look for a 'Terrier' as suggested by RJS1977, but so far have drawn a blank due to cost, but will keep looking. Thanks again everyone, and cheers, G Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold tomparryharry Posted September 21, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 21, 2021 O gauge might be the scale for you. !/32"... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 5 hours ago, G-man69 said: Hi all, Another big thank you to everyone for their continued help, it is appreciated. I quite like the fact that the wagons will be a bit long in the tooth for the intended era, it means I can have a go at showing them weathered and worn. I've never painted railway elements, but being primarily a 1/35th armour modeller, bent and battered representations of items is in my DNA, . I've also started to look for a 'Terrier' as suggested by RJS1977, but so far have drawn a blank due to cost, but will keep looking. Thanks again everyone, and cheers, G look for a cheap ( possibly built) K’s terrier white metal kit without a motor they can be quite cheap 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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