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[halsey]

IF you do decide to introduce a gradient can I put in a plug for Woodland Scenics polystyrene gradients/inclines - they are incredibly easy to use and so flexible - even on my first ever layout this was a g'teed success even with a lift out section followed by an immediate 90 degree curve 

[Harlequin]

Just experimenting to see if something like the original concept can be compressed into the sunspace area.

You have to squint and use your imagination a bit:

 

• Just guidelines at the moment - the circles set a min radius of 762mm / 2ft6in.
• Grabbed a bit more space from the room. Dining table would have to move.
• Double track circuit to allow two trains to run simultaneously unattended.
• Curved the entire station to try to maximise the scenic length - works out as ~4600mm / 15ft.
• Triangle feed to 1800mm traverser - so loco plus 5 coaches.
• There might just be room to reverse a whole train off-scene.
• Branch line and main lines cross lifting section on the level. Lots of rails to align...
• Very little countryside running - if any.

Hmmm...

Edited February 13, 2021 by Harlequin

[halsey]

11 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

Just experimenting to see if something like the original concept can be compressed into the sunspace area.

You have to squint and use your imagination a bit:

 

• Just guidelines at the moment - the circles set a min radius of 768mm / 2ft6in.
• Grabbed a bit more space from the room. Dining table would have to move.
• Double track circuit to allow two trains to run simultaneously unattended.
• Curved the entire station to try to maximise the scenic length - works out as ~4600mm / 15ft.
• Triangle feed to 1800mm traverser - so loco plus 5 coaches.
• There might just be room to reverse a whole train off-scene.
• Branch line and main lines cross lifting section on the level. Lots of rails to align...
• Very little countryside running - if any.

Hmmm...

 

Just a couple of early observations -

your lift out section is pretty busy to get all those tracks lined up and working well

your top LH corner will present significant "reach" issues 

 

[Zomboid]

I'm surprised that it requires as little compromise as it seems, actually. The countryside running seems to be the main thing that you'd lose, in exchange for it being less dominant in your living space. But whether that will make the whole thing terminally unsatisfactory I couldn't say.

 

You could have a bit more open running by making the branch to main connection only at the South West of the design, and then the northern edge could be a purely scenic section of track.

[Flying Pig]

 

2 hours ago, Zomboid said:

The countryside running seems to be the main thing that you'd lose, in exchange for it being less dominant in your living space.

 

If staging on the circuit is abandoned and trains are basically operated end to end as per @Keith Addenbrooke's suggestion, with the main circuit for pure round and round running when the mood takes, then most of the circuit can be scenic, with a fair amount of open country between 12 and 3 o'clock.

 

It still needs a bit of a trot between the well and the fiddle yard, so batch processing is probably the best way of operating.

 

To go really crazy, could the fiddle yard be made to store under the layout? I imagine a height-adjustable mounting on a mobile piece of furniture.  That way it is not a fixture in the space and might even be made a carriage or two longer.

[Harlequin]

Going a bit further:

 

Streamline parts in the off-scene triangle junctions. Track spacing 51mm (red circles) off scene and reduced to 45mm in the scenic area (blue circles).

No way to reverse whole trains yet... (Edit: Sorry, I mean no way to turn whole trains off-scene.)

Lots of practicalities yet to be sorted out.

 

Edited February 14, 2021 by Harlequin

[Chimer]

If you next decide not to have a station on the main line, but get your operational fun from a BLT perched above the main lines in the top left corner, I'm going to accuse you of reading my mind in search of compromises!  See "Lessismore", hopefully later today.

 

If you do have a station, then at the cost of losing the sweeping curves to nasty angular pointwork you will be able to "reverse whole trains" using a pair of trailing crossovers, but I'm guessing that's not what you meant? 

 

Cheers, Chris

[Zomboid]

42 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

No way to reverse whole trains yet...

On the eastern edge you can put a reversing siding along as much of the length as you like, hidden behind the cutting slope. On the Southern edge you can use the branch as a reversing siding. Obviously both need some more points in the triangle, but in theory it should work.

[Harlequin]

20 hours ago, Flying Pig said:

 

 

If staging on the circuit is abandoned and trains are basically operated end to end as per @Keith Addenbrooke's suggestion, with the main circuit for pure round and round running when the mood takes, then most of the circuit can be scenic, with a fair amount of open country between 12 and 3 o'clock.

 

It still needs a bit of a trot between the well and the fiddle yard, so batch processing is probably the best way of operating.

 

To go really crazy, could the fiddle yard be made to store under the layout? I imagine a height-adjustable mounting on a mobile piece of furniture.  That way it is not a fixture in the space and might even be made a carriage or two longer.

 

The removable fiddle yard is a really good idea. It would make the layout a bit less intrusive again. It would need some good engineering but that doesn't put me off. I'm sticking with 5 coach trains for now until I see the proportions of longer trains in the scene. It's easy to make the FY longer - er, in the computer...

 

I'm thinking that if the traverser had a handle on it facing the operating well, or maybe a lever pivoting on the main baseboard for more control, I could at least change traverser tracks without leaving the operating well.

 

I haven't discounted @Keith Addenbrooke's idea of a high level branch FY yet but I need to see if I can fit the proper branch double junction in the scenic area first. If I can then there's probably not enough length to climb up to it.

 

2 hours ago, Chimer said:

If you next decide not to have a station on the main line, but get your operational fun from a BLT perched above the main lines in the top left corner, I'm going to accuse you of reading my mind in search of compromises!  See "Lessismore", hopefully later today.

Ooh, intriguing!

 

Quote

 

If you do have a station, then at the cost of losing the sweeping curves to nasty angular pointwork you will be able to "reverse whole trains" using a pair of trailing crossovers, but I'm guessing that's not what you meant? 

 

Cheers, Chris

 

Sorry for using confusing/incorrect terminology. I meant "turn a whole train" and specifically, "turn a whole train off-scene".

 

I'm going to try to design the scenic pointwork using the new Finetrax OO-SF products. I need to get more info but they are standard geometries so I think I can make very close templates already. They can be curved more easily than Peco parts which is great for curving stations but makes designing with templates more difficult! I think I know how to do it in my drawing program, though.

 

2 hours ago, Zomboid said:

On the eastern edge you can put a reversing siding along as much of the length as you like, hidden behind the cutting slope. On the Southern edge you can use the branch as a reversing siding. Obviously both need some more points in the triangle, but in theory it should work.

 

I've been trying things along those lines but the minimum radius and the constrained space make it very difficult. The hidden track needs to be long enough for a train (say 1800mm), outside one of the triangle junctions and needs a crossover in the main line. The only major leeway is to push the triangle further to the right but that brings it's own problems.

 

Edited February 14, 2021 by Harlequin

[Harlequin]

On 11/02/2021 at 10:26, halsey said:

Just a thought which occurred to me whilst reading this - how hot does your sunspace get - is it going to present an issue with expansion?

 

It's definitely something to think about. I have had buckled tracks on my test layout in really hot weather but in mid-summer the sunspace windows are usually shaded by climbing plants. It was actually quite dark in there last year thanks to runner beans.

 

Much more serious track damage is done by one of my cats, who thinks it's an excellent place to sharpen her claws... And yes, that does have implications for the new design that I have ignored so far.

 

Edited February 14, 2021 by Harlequin

[Chimer]

37 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

Much more serious track damage is done by one of my cats, who thinks it's an excellent scratching to sharpen her claws... And yes, that does have implications for the new design that I have ignored so far.

 

 

Might have implications for the cat, I would have thought 

[halsey]

6 minutes ago, Chimer said:

 

Might have implications for the cat, I would have thought 

Can you fit a decoder in a cat??

[Flying Pig]

1 hour ago, Harlequin said:

Sorry for using confusing/incorrect terminology. I meant "turn a whole train" and specifically, "turn a whole train off-scene".

 

Why do you need to turn entire trains if you're working the layout end to end?  Surely the journey doesn't reverse the train and it will be the same way round on its return - i.e. the London end remains the London end and the south side remains the south side.  That doesn't change if you add some circuits to extend the run.

 

You do need some loco handling off scene, but you can turn them on the triangle between sessions if you wish.

[Harlequin]

4 minutes ago, Flying Pig said:

 

Why do you need to turn entire trains if you're working the layout end to end?  Surely the journey doesn't reverse the train and it will be the same way round on its return - i.e. the London end remains the London end and the south side remains the south side.  That doesn't change if you add some circuits to extend the run.

 

You do need some loco handling off scene, but you can turn them on the triangle between sessions if you wish.

 

Yes, it's not essential at all. It's a "would be nice" and a "would be clever" feature.

The design would still work without it.

 

[jbg]

Not sure if its been covered earlier but could you do this by dropping the fiddle yard or staging sidings under the station/scenic area or is there insufficient clearance?  At least then you could keep the layout within the sun room area rather than affecting other parts of the living space.

 

Jeremy 

[AndyB]

Afternoon Phil 

I like your idea of a continuous run with a branch line station. Instead of it terminating it at the top left hand corner would it be an idea to keep it running round the whole of the baseboard and terminate above the FY? 

 

I see a couple of advantages to that.

Firstly you could operate the whole layout from one position- adjacent to the FY.

Secondly you'll need a way of chopping up the whole scene to avoid the tail-chasing effect; by weaving the branch line in you could achieve some visual blockers. You could also have a halt along the branch line? Some forced perspective modelling would really work well if you ioeratedit from the FY but had vistas across the whole layout.

 

Two downsides to this idea. 

If you say in the middle you could swivel around and watch the trains go by.

Some thought would need to go into how to operate the FY if you had a BLT above it.

 

(Very) Rough sketch below. Apologies if anyone has already suggested this. 

 

[Harlequin]

12 minutes ago, jbg said:

Not sure if its been covered earlier but could you do this by dropping the fiddle yard or staging sidings under the station/scenic area or is there insufficient clearance?  At least then you could keep the layout within the sun room area rather than affecting other parts of the living space.

 

Jeremy 

Hi Jeremy,

 

Clearance would definitely be a problem and the gradients involved would be very steep or very long. In my book hidden/covered fiddle yards are a bad thing, anyway.

 

But you have given me an idea that I need to think through before I explain it here - because it might be stupid!

 

[SteveyDee68]

Would a simple, temporary, single line return loop be possible at the other end of the traverser? Fed by whichever empty road is designated for the incoming train? Effectively, train sent to traverser runs straight through, around the loop and back into the same traverser line, to stop automatically upon its return?

 

As it is a temporary, non-permanent fixture it could curve out into the living area to give sufficient length to allow the train to reverse itself without encountering its own tail.

 

Take it a step further and add scenics to the loop so it runs through open countryside ... if that isn't mad enough a suggestion, put a second "dummy" line on the inside to create the impression of double track, with the operating outer curve always the left running track (clockwise in my imagination!). It may only be a temporary section but it would provide a "running through countryside" fix...

 

And with some cleverly positioned miniature video cameras, stream live video through to screens in the operator's area so that the effect can be enjoyed by the person operating the layout...

 

Nurse ... I think it is time for my medication!

 

Steve S

Edited February 14, 2021 by SteveyDee68
Far too many typos!

[Keith Addenbrooke]

 I really like @Flying Pig’s idea of a removable fiddle yard that lowers and tucks under the layout when not in use: a really good way to keep some “non-railway” living space and shows the layout as scenic to any visitors.

 

Taking that idea a step further, if it was made reversible (rotatable?) then it could solve the problem of turning trains between sessions, if it had enough tracks for a good operating session.  As I understand it, the “Denny” pattern fiddle yard worked like that - the catch is it needs a fan of points so all tracks are accessible, but the plus is it only needs turning occasionally.  The layout could then be on one level (my suggestion for a double level fiddle yard isn’t then needed).

 

There’s no real engineering involved in making a removable fiddle yard rotatable as well.  But you could also make it into a Traverser?  That does involve a bit more engineering.  Keith.

 

Edited September 30, 2022 by Keith Addenbrooke
Edited for text only as photo no longer available

[Chimer]

Mount it on an old-fashioned tea-trolley maybe 

[halsey]

10 days and no updates - just wondering how it was developing or perhaps you have a "life" 

[Harlequin]

Not much change on this plan, I'm afraid. I have been working (very slowly) on Minories.

 

I have drawn a more balanced curve, with wider radii in the scenic area (red):

 

I need to make templates for OO-SF turnouts and work out how to curve them reasonably.

 

I had an idea about the fiddle yard: Since it's in the living room, and since lots of stock will be standing in it that needs to be protected from cats, dust and general knocks it would be a great if it had a glass (or acrylic) cover. Practical and an attractive display cabinet of sorts.

 

Edited February 24, 2021 by Harlequin

[halsey]

Presumably not much change means you are broadly happy with it??

 

I find the challenges of the removable fiddle yard interesting - Chris's idea of adapting a trolley is an interesting one - a good look around for workshop sales might turn up an engineering trolley of some sort ............

 

J

[AndyB]

Looking good Phil. 

May I ask what size the grids are. I'm trying to imagine those in comparison to a OO coach.  Or 5 coaches and a loco to be precise, and whether view blockers in front would be beneficial. 

[Harlequin]

2 hours ago, AndyB said:

Looking good Phil. 

May I ask what size the grids are. I'm trying to imagine those in comparison to a OO coach.  Or 5 coaches and a loco to be precise, and whether view blockers in front would be beneficial. 

305mm grid. (1 "metric foot")