Class 21 Scottish sphere of operation.

[TravisM]

I’ve been asked by a friend in the US who’s been given a Dapol Class 21 and wondered how far they roamed from home base.  I know they weren’t the most reliable machines around but did they stick close to home or were they trusted from time to time to wander further afield?

[pH]

The Wikipedia article on them gives a quick summary of their use in Scotland. There is a sentence in that section which reads “They were common on the West Highland lines, Great North of Scotland lines and in the works.”

[TravisM]

He’s now asked if the Scottish one’s ever made it down as far as Carlisle or were they split working between Glasgow and Aberdeen?

[darrel]

Can I recommend the recently published book about class 21s and class 29s. Very detailed and well illustrated. Got it for my Christmas and throughly enjoyed it.

[pH]

6 hours ago, jools1959 said:

He’s now asked if the Scottish one’s ever made it down as far as Carlisle or were they split working between Glasgow and Aberdeen?

At least one made it to Kingmoor:

 

https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p463703822/h2B83C0FF

['CHARD]

18 minutes ago, pH said:

At least one made it to Kingmoor:

 

https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p463703822/h2B83C0FF

 

Wow!  That's a first for this student!

[The Border Reiver]

They definitely made it to Carlisle. Just after some were transferred from Stratford I saw quite a few of them double headed on freights which arrived in Carlisle each evening around 2130 some still wearing 30A shed plates. I reported this fact to Trains Illustrated which appeared in Motive Power Miscellany

[russ p]

I've seen a picture of one at Appleby on a troop train. Remember when new some were based at Ipswich and I think hornsey 

[D9020 Nimbus]

I don't think they were ever used on the lines to Fort Willliam/Mallaig until after conversion to class 29s but they were often used, in pairs, on the Oban line (then run independently of the Fort William line).

[Rail-Online]

They worked quite extensively from Grangemouth depot on oil trains after conversion to class 29

 

Tony

[pH]

The map of operations of class 21/29s on this page shows class 21s making occasional visits to Birmingham:

 

http://www.revolutiontrains.com/class-2129/

 

It would be nice to see the evidence.

[Rail-Online]

Regarding these coming to Birmingham it says 'Condor freight deputising occasionally for the usual class 28'.

 

This is absolute garbage. 

 

For starters class 28s were not used on the Birmingham Condor freights -they were a class 24 duty.  There is no evidence whatsoever that NB type 2s ever visited Birmingham.

 

You might as well say they occasionally worked to Doncaster- as they passed by returning to their makers for rectification.

 

Tony

[luckymucklebackit]

On 07/02/2021 at 18:02, D9020 Nimbus said:

I don't think they were ever used on the lines to Fort Willliam/Mallaig until after conversion to class 29s but they were often used, in pairs, on the Oban line (then run independently of the Fort William line).

 

This site https://brdiesels.livejournal.com/537.html shows that the WHL was well populated with class 29s, but as is usual there is always one exception to the rule, If you scroll down to D6137  there is a photo of this loco in its original form double heading No. 256 Glen Douglas through Tulloch Station.  The caption adds that D6137 had been added to assist the train at Rannoch, replacing ex-NBR Class S (LNER Class J37) 0-6-0 No. 64632 which had failed earlier at Gorton Crossing.   i am sure I have seen another photo of this pairing at Fort William.

 

Jim 

[russ p]

Remember when new some werebased at Ipswich and I believe hornsey 

[scottystitch]

On 08/02/2021 at 10:06, Rail-Online said:

Regarding these coming to Birmingham it says 'Condor freight deputising occasionally for the usual class 28'.

 

This is absolute garbage. 

 

For starters class 28s were not used on the Birmingham Condor freights -they were a class 24 duty.  There is no evidence whatsoever that NB type 2s ever visited Birmingham.

 

You might as well say they occasionally worked to Doncaster- as they passed by returning to their makers for rectification.

 

Tony

Interestingly though, there is this:

 

I'm still trying to find the source for this on BR Database.

 

EDIT: Sayers' book also has the following for D6123:

 

13th August '63 - Gushetfaulds -Aston (Birmingham Condor)

 

13th August '63 - Aston - Gushetfaulds (Birmingham Condor)

 

Also was noted at Aston on 20th August 

 

Best

 

Scott.

Edited February 9, 2021 by scottystitch

[Halvarras]

8 minutes ago, scottystitch said:

Interestingly though, there is this:

 

I'm still trying to find the source for this on BR Database.

 

Best

 

Scott.

 

This was my understanding too, it appeared in an article in the erstwhile 'Classic Diesels & Electrics' magazine - only D6123, and this was just after its Paxman transplant so mileage accumulation would make sense. Even so this was quite some distance, they must have had considerable confidence in the conversion.....

[scottystitch]

Just now, Neil Phillips said:

 

This was my understanding too, it appeared in an article in the erstwhile 'Classic Diesels & Electrics' magazine - only D6123, and this was just after its Paxman transplant so mileage accumulation would make sense. Even so this was quite some distance, they must have had considerable confidence in the conversion.....

 

Sayer doesn't list BR Database as a source, either, so I'm surmising it was from a spotter's notebook or some other primary source, or more probably the original source that BR Database got it from (that I still can't locate).  I'm scouring the book to find a partner for 6123 on that working, but drawing a blank.  I'd be surprised if it made the journey on it's own, but by then the Condor would have been at it's reduced capacity (13 Conflats?) so maybe it did...

 

Best

 

Scott.

[D9020 Nimbus]

1 hour ago, luckymucklebackit said:

 

This site https://brdiesels.livejournal.com/537.html shows that the WHL was well populated with class 29s, but as is usual there is always one exception to the rule, If you scroll down to D6137  there is a photo of this loco in its original form double heading No. 256 Glen Douglas through Tulloch Station.  The caption adds that D6137 had been added to assist the train at Rannoch, replacing ex-NBR Class S (LNER Class J37) 0-6-0 No. 64632 which had failed earlier at Gorton Crossing.   i am sure I have seen another photo of this pairing at Fort William.

 

Jim 

You're right — I'd forgotten about that, but the photograph is one I've seen before; I think the novelty of a class 21 rescuing something rather than being rescued itself, probably accounts for that. However, I'm fairly sure that this was a "one-off", unlike their use in later form.

[scottystitch]

43 minutes ago, scottystitch said:

Interestingly though, there is this:

 

I'm still trying to find the source for this on BR Database.

 

EDIT: Sayers' book also has the following for D6123:

 

13th August '63 - Gushetfaulds -Aston (Birmingham Condor)

 

13th August '63 - Aston - Gushetfaulds (Birmingham Condor)

 

Also was noted at Aston on 20th August 

 

Best

 

Scott.

Further to this, Dave Peel's "The Unusual and the Unexpected on British Railways", reinforced that "D6123, with new Paxman engine, is given a two way trial on the Aston - Gushetfaulds 'Condor' fitted freight. 13 & 20 August 1963"

 

Best

 

Scott.

[Jim49]

On 07/02/2021 at 19:22, pH said:

The map of operations of class 21/29s on this page shows class 21s making occasional visits to Birmingham:

 

http://www.revolutiontrains.com/class-2129/

 

It would be nice to see the evidence.

 

Peter, in this case could " Birmingham" be similar to "Moscow" i.e. a small village in Ayrshire?

 

Jim

[Michael Hodgson]

On 07/02/2021 at 07:44, pH said:

At least one made it to Kingmoor:

 

https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p463703822/h2B83C0FF

 

Interesting photo.  I hadn't realised the class 21's steam heating boiler was coal fired,

[MidlandRed]

On 09/02/2021 at 14:03, scottystitch said:

Interestingly though, there is this:

 

I'm still trying to find the source for this on BR Database.

 

EDIT: Sayers' book also has the following for D6123:

 

13th August '63 - Gushetfaulds -Aston (Birmingham Condor)

 

13th August '63 - Aston - Gushetfaulds (Birmingham Condor)

 

Also was noted at Aston on 20th August 

 

Best

 

Scott.

 

Also stated in Sayer's book on 21/8/63 and 29/9/63 at Aston (though the latter clashes with dynamometer tests, so presumably is an incorrect date). The book states the dynamometer tests ran to Carlisle no 9 (Forks Junction M and C), from Hurlford MPD.

 

Also stated as seen on a test train at Fullwood Junction, Mossend on 10/7/63.

 

Observed running trials on the Clacton line on 29/5/63 (this predates its repaint in two tone green at St Rollox in June 63, released 11/7/63). This loco, as is well known, retained the disc headcodes, unlike the other conversions to class 29.

 

The dynamometer test info is referenced to Nov 63 Railway Observer - the others are not referenced directly.

 

Excellent book (as is the class 28 one from the same author).

[ardbealach]

Back in the early 60's in my train spotting days I seem to recall the Glasgow London Condor had a pair of Metro Vick CoBos in charge.  Never saw it with a NBL at the front. (Alisdair)

[tiger]

On 10/02/2021 at 01:45, D9020 Nimbus said:

You're right — I'd forgotten about that, but the photograph is one I've seen before; I think the novelty of a class 21 rescuing something rather than being rescued itself, probably accounts for that. However, I'm fairly sure that this was a "one-off", unlike their use in later form.

 

I have a second hand copy of "Diesels of the Regions - Scottish Region" by Tom Noble, published in 1984 by OPC. I was fairly sure it has a picture of a class 21 at the original Fort William station so I've just had a look. Sure enough Plate 148 illustrates D6137 at Fort William - on the above mentioned train!

 

The caption reads "Part of the ... original Fort William Station can be seen in this view of No. D6137. It has just arrived on 1st June 1963 after rescuing "The Jacobite" steam rail tour from Glasgow, following the failure, at Gorton, of one of its locomotives. Behind No D6137 is preserved NBR No.  256 Glen Douglas, whose brick arch has just collapsed. The excursion proceeded to Mallaig behind two Class J37 0-6-0s, one of which was a write-off on arrival. Return to Glasgow was behind a diesel." Photo attributed to W. Smith. 

 

There have been some diesel rail tours over the years described as farcical but this surely takes the cake. 

[ardbealach]

On 09/02/2021 at 13:35, luckymucklebackit said:

 

This site https://brdiesels.livejournal.com/537.html shows that the WHL was well populated with class 29s, but as is usual there is always one exception to the rule, If you scroll down to D6137  there is a photo of this loco in its original form double heading No. 256 Glen Douglas through Tulloch Station.  The caption adds that D6137 had been added to assist the train at Rannoch, replacing ex-NBR Class S (LNER Class J37) 0-6-0 No. 64632 which had failed earlier at Gorton Crossing.   i am sure I have seen another photo of this pairing at Fort William.

 

Jim 

I was fortunate enough to have travelled on this special, "The Jacobite" - not to be confused with the Fort Bill / Mallaig steam version of today.  The trip, organised by the Scottish Locomotive Preservation Fund, was to be the last occasion of a steam hauled passenger train from Queen St to Mallaig and back with NBR 256 Glen Douglas and J37 64632 for the first leg of the journey.  For the record the double headed train was banked out of Queen Street by NBL D6126.   As noted 64632 failed at Gorton on the outward journey and we were rescued by NBL D6137 that took us onward to Fort Bill, as far as I recall, with the two steam locomotives.  In FW Glen Douglas was failed.  

 

On the run up on the Mallaig Extension we had J37's 64592 and 64636.  One of these then failed at Glenfinnan, but we limped  on into Mallaig.  Class 27 D5351 brought us all the way back from Mallaig to Glasgow, where we arrived two hours late after midnight.  BR had to organise taxis for the onward journeys home for passengers.  Details of the trip can be found on the Six Bells Junction website for 1 June 1963.

 

Attached are images of the two J37's on Mallaig pier having finally made it, of checking the problems at Glenfinnan, and of D5351 heading the train ready for the return trip to Glasgow.  (Alisdair)