Rapido dangles Class 13 RTR carrot...

[mdvle]

40 minutes ago, Legend said:

 

Funny thats what our marketing guys say . I then take them gently by the neck , sorry,  hand to the profit and loss account  which  in its most basic form is Sales - Cost =Profit .  This is good I tell them .  Sales - bigger cost = Loss . This is bad . We dont like that I say . 

 

Cost is never irrelevant . You don't throw money at something just to enter a market . 

 

Except you chose to take my comment out of context.

 

The context was in the decision Rapido made to enter the UK market, at which point whether the tooling cost for a loco was in the $200,000 range (as a manufacturer has stated) or the $700,000 that dibber25 is quoting is irrelevant - because Rapido have already indicated that despite the cost a profit can (in their judgment) be made.

 

 

[mdvle]

5 hours ago, dibber25 said:

So, you just need to find another 4,999 people who have those same issues, (and who don't have something else they would prefer to spend their money on) otherwise you have to decide whether it's really worth risking your (rapidly approaching) half a million quid. And then, what if Hornby retools the louvres just as you've committed your investment? It really isn't as easy as just looking at which models you think you can do better. (CJL)

 

Is there a risk?  Of course - though it is also possible that the Hornby tooling can't be fixed.

 

But your comment implies that there are other choices that are risk-free, which is no longer the case in the UK market.  Just look, Rapido are going to tool up a steam loco that only had 10 made and an industrial that had 44 made but looks very similar to the existing EFE Rail J94.  Those are risks - and also models that people would have laughed 5 years ago if you said were going to be available in RTR.

 

If Rapido wanted risk-free they would have been better off remaining in the US market - there are a lot of GE and Alco locos that have either never been done, or haven't been done in 30+ years that had lots of liveries - and realistically only 2 other companies tooling up locos currently - and they both seem to be quite happy tooling up duplicates of more modern items.

 

 

[dibber25]

14 minutes ago, mdvle said:

 

Is there a risk?  Of course - though it is also possible that the Hornby tooling can't be fixed.

 

But your comment implies that there are other choices that are risk-free, which is no longer the case in the UK market.  Just look, Rapido are going to tool up a steam loco that only had 10 made and an industrial that had 44 made but looks very similar to the existing EFE Rail J94.  Those are risks - and also models that people would have laughed 5 years ago if you said were going to be available in RTR.

 

If Rapido wanted risk-free they would have been better off remaining in the US market - there are a lot of GE and Alco locos that have either never been done, or haven't been done in 30+ years that had lots of liveries - and realistically only 2 other companies tooling up locos currently - and they both seem to be quite happy tooling up duplicates of more modern items.

 

 

I don't recall saying anywhere that there are choices which are risk-free. My intention was to point out that the financial risk is very high these days.  As Rapido say in the newsletter, they are late to the party and all the good booze has been drunk. I'd say, in relation to the REALLY good booze, the glasses have been washed and put away for the next 25 years. Today, if your choice fails to attract sufficient buyers the cost can be huge. It is noticeable that Rapido is doing more and more for its US market particularly if it can also make a Canadian version with just some detail changes. Pure Canadian stuff, like the CNR 4-6-0, well that's not surprisingly (but disappointingly) gone on the back burner. But the promise of a Co-Bo in 'N' shows that they are not risk averse. Indeed, even in 'OO' it would be the last thing I'd make, two other manufacturers having seen little success with it. Throughout my time in the model press I've been told repeatedly by experienced major manufacturers that steam models sell much better than what they called 'blue diesels' (i.e. modern traction) so , yes, I'm not surprised at all to see small obscure steam classes being chosen. (CJL)

[Mel_H]

2 minutes ago, dibber25 said:

I don't recall saying anywhere that there are choices which are risk-free. My intention was to point out that the financial risk is very high these days.  As Rapido say in the newsletter, they are late to the party and all the good booze has been drunk. I'd say, in relation to the REALLY good booze, the glasses have been washed and put away for the next 25 years. Today, if your choice fails to attract sufficient buyers the cost can be huge. It is noticeable that Rapido is doing more and more for its US market particularly if it can also make a Canadian version with just some detail changes. Pure Canadian stuff, like the CNR 4-6-0, well that's not surprisingly (but disappointingly) gone on the back burner. But the promise of a Co-Bo in 'N' shows that they are not risk averse. Indeed, even in 'OO' it would be the last thing I'd make, two other manufacturers having seen little success with it. Throughout my time in the model press I've been told repeatedly by experienced major manufacturers that steam models sell much better than what they called 'blue diesels' (i.e. modern traction) so , yes, I'm not surprised at all to see small obscure steam classes being chosen. (CJL)

 

And, of course, there are plenty of 'obscure' steam classes, to go at if you start on the LNER!

 

[dibber25]

1 minute ago, Mel_H said:

 

And, of course, there are plenty of 'obscure' steam classes, to go at if you start on the LNER!

 

Or go back a bit further on the GWR........'Aberdare' anyone? No, I thought not. (CJL)

[Mel_H]

1 minute ago, dibber25 said:

Or go back a bit further on the GWR........'Aberdare' anyone? No, I thought not. (CJL)

 

Now I'm very excited.  I'd always fancied having a go at a kit, but decided it was way beyond my skills. 

[Steamport Southport]

18 minutes ago, dibber25 said:

Or go back a bit further on the GWR........'Aberdare' anyone? No, I thought not. (CJL)

 

Maybe not here as the thread is mainly dominated by diesel diehards. However I would buy four or five.  

 

Unfortunately the old K's kits go for stupid money for what they are worth (£200+).

 

So it's the Brassmasters/Finney kit which will be a lot more. With all the parts it's getting towards £400.

 

 

http://www.brassmasters.co.uk/gwr_aberdare_2-6-0.htm

 

 

Jason

[Mel_H]

4 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Maybe not here as the thread is mainly dominated by diesel diehards. However I would buy four or five.  

 

Unfortunately the old K's kits go for stupid money for what they are worth (£200+).

 

So it's the Brassmasters/Finney kit which will be a lot more. With all the parts it's getting towards £400.

 

 

http://www.brassmasters.co.uk/gwr_aberdare_2-6-0.htm

 

 

Jason

 

Wow.

 

I know that it's often pointed out in magazine reviews that just the cost of the parts for a kit, before assembly, is often the same as an RTR model, and this is before it's painted.

 

With RTR achieving better livery finishes than ever the best professional could produce (says Tony Wright), it makes RTR cheaper than ever, despite what people say (complain?)

 

Add to this the extraordinary standards of detail and finesse of some suppliers, such as Rapido*, what's not to like?

 

* Jason, is that good enough to earn my tenner?

 

[Steamport Southport]

It is a bit of a Rolls Royce of kits though. Top end quality wise.

 

If Nucast reissued the old K's Kit version I would expect it to be about £100 without wheels and motor.

 

 

Jason

[rope runner]

1 hour ago, Steamport Southport said:

So it's the Brassmasters/Finney kit which will be a lot more. With all the parts it's getting towards £400.

 

 

I think that £400 is a bit strong. Inclusive of wheels, gearbox and motor I think It'd be sub £300 - and you've got the bonus of working inside motion....and dare I even suggest the enjoyment of building it yourself. 

 

Paul A. 

[Steamport Southport]

5 minutes ago, 1whitemoor said:

 

I think that £400 is a bit strong. Inclusive of wheels, gearbox and motor I think It'd be sub £300 - and you've got the bonus of working inside motion....and dare I even suggest the enjoyment of building it yourself. 

 

Paul A. 

 

I did the maths.

 

£140 loco

£55 tender

Decent motor and gear box? About £100 

Wheels? You're not going to put rubbish on it so the recommended Ultrascales. Which are £22 each. Markits aren't that much cheaper.

 

https://www.ultrascale.uk/eshop/products/view/CAT001/170

 

Or £94 for the set

 

https://www.ultrascale.uk/eshop/products/view/CAT006/48

 

You could build it down to a budget. But that surely misses the point?

 

 

Jason

[rope runner]

27 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

I did the maths.

 

£140 loco

£55 tender

Decent motor and gear box? About £100 

Wheels? You're not going to put rubbish on it so the recommended Ultrascales. Which are £22 each. Markits aren't that much cheaper.

 

https://www.ultrascale.uk/eshop/products/view/CAT001/170

 

Or £94 for the set

 

https://www.ultrascale.uk/eshop/products/view/CAT006/48

 

You could build it down to a budget. But that surely misses the point?

 

 

Jason

 

I'm afraid I tot it up rather differently while still using high spec components - 

 

£195 loco & tender

 

Gibson wheels & appropriate cranks £35

Tender wheels (Gibson) £ 18

HL Roadrunner+ £18

Mashima Can motor or equivalent £25

 

Paul A. 

[Big James]

As an example look the SR majority of the big SR classes are done. With only the U class, Q class and the ex SECR 4-4-0’s (even if the Dapol D class has taken a slice of the pie) left to do in large numbers. Other then that most of the other classes left to do number under 30. 
 

Big James

[dibber25]

5 hours ago, Big James said:

As an example look the SR majority of the big SR classes are done. With only the U class, Q class and the ex SECR 4-4-0’s (even if the Dapol D class has taken a slice of the pie) left to do in large numbers. Other then that most of the other classes left to do number under 30. 
 

Big James

On the basis that diesels seem to warrant retooling after 20 years, then the Maunsell 'Mogul' - especially the 'N' should be top of the list, surely? Arguably the most widely used of all SR locos, from Kent to Padstow. (CJL)

[Big James]

5 hours ago, dibber25 said:

On the basis that diesels seem to warrant retooling after 20 years, then the Maunsell 'Mogul' - especially the 'N' should be top of the list, surely? Arguably the most widely used of all SR locos, from Kent to Padstow. (CJL)

I agree with your there. Although with weathering the N class does scrub up really well. Tbh I don’t really know a lot about diesel classes unless it run on the former SR. 
But I feel like the U-boat or N class would be a prime candidate. 
 

Big James

[mozzer models]

will just put this here  built before there was a kit

4mm BR Class 13 Shunter Converted from 2x Hornby class 08 Shunter by brian mosby, on Flickr

Edited February 10, 2021 by mozzer models

[C126]

If I may drag the thread off-topic in a different direction, I hope the following might prove inspiration enough to those with the will and space to build a hump yard layout needing a '13':

 

A miniature hump?

ELLIS, Chris & ANDRESS, Michael.

Model Trains, 1980, OCT.

(Mentions "the Rev. Edward Beal built one for his famous West Midland layout over 30 years ago!"  Does anyone know this layout?)

 

 

Hump yard layout.

LINK, Roy C.

Railway Modeller, 1994, JAN.  (There are subsequent part(s), which I missed.)

 

A model hump yard.

LOCKWOOD, Christopher.

British Railway Modelling, 1998, JULY.

 

Drop me a line if you would like further details.  Hope this is of interest.

[F-UnitMad]

11 minutes ago, C126 said:

A miniature hump?

ELLIS, Chris & ANDRESS, Michael.

Model Trains, 1980, OCT.

IIRC, that issue or article also had photos of a German HO hump yard, might have been the Fleischmann factory exhibition layout of the time. It wasn't vastly huge, I think, maybe only 5 roads?

[C126]

2 minutes ago, F-UnitMad said:

IIRC, that issue or article also had photos of a German HO hump yard, might have been the Fleischmann factory exhibition layout of the time. It wasn't vastly huge, I think, maybe only 5 roads?

 

That is the one.  "The splendid Fleischmann HO layout featured at the Festival of Model Railways Show in London in the summer of 1977 included a working automatically operated hump yard, built entirely from standard Fleischmann parts."  A single hump road gave access to a five-road sorting yard via a King 3-way and 2 points.

[Mel_H]

Ooh, look what's in the latest Model Rail magazine....  That might explain something? There's a further reference lower down in the article too

[adb968008]

On 09/02/2021 at 16:06, mdvle said:

 

Except you chose to take my comment out of context.

 

The context was in the decision Rapido made to enter the UK market, at which point whether the tooling cost for a loco was in the $200,000 range (as a manufacturer has stated) or the $700,000 that dibber25 is quoting is irrelevant - because Rapido have already indicated that despite the cost a profit can (in their judgment) be made.

 

 

Are we sure about $700k for a loco tooling ?

does that include manufacturing each unit, or just cutting metal ?

 

On 09/02/2021 at 12:14, Steven B said:

Rapido UK now have a suggestion page:

https://rapidotrains.co.uk/product-suggestion/

 

They're asking for more information than just "Class XYZ" - including dates, liveries and area of operation.

Then there's the final question: outline why you think Rapido Trains UK would be the ideal manufacturer for this model.

 

Steven B.

 

LNWR Royal train coaches at the NRM.

A nice follow on to the dynanometer car.

 

Why Rapido..

Its Royal, it could not be made or sold cheaply.

 

 

 

[dibber25]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

Are we sure about $700k for a loco tooling ?

does that include manufacturing each unit, or just cutting metal ?

 

 

LNWR Royal train coaches at the NRM.

A nice follow on to the dynanometer car.

 

Why Rapido..

Its Royal, it could not be made or sold cheaply.

 

 

 

The word 'tooling' was a momentary mental slip. The word 'production' would have been better, as the larger part of the cost is actually the assembly rather than cutting metal or producing parts. The rate of exchange can also make a big difference as, regardless of location, one is required to pay in US$ at the going rate at the time of payment, and it is impossible to predict that 2 years in advance. (CJL)

Edited February 17, 2021 by dibber25

[cheesysmith]

I think that the diesel market pretty much mined out, and the modern railway full of units, the choices fall to either steamy things or the shunter market. The modernisation plan did bring out lots of different shunters, like the jackshaft drive LMS shunters, or the 06 instead of the old Hornby tooling.

[wasabi]

You can 'manage' currency risk with the most obvious way of doing it being to build up funds in USD, although with very low interest rates keeping a pile of cash is not a good way of using capital.  Futures contracts can also be used but would probably be expensive at two years out, although they can be traded if there is some in-house expertise.

 

It would be interesting, to put this more in context, to have an idea of how much of the actual retail price is represented by costs in USD.  

 

1 hour ago, dibber25 said:

The word 'tooling' was a momentary mental slip. The word 'production' would have been better, as the larger part of the cost is actually the assembly rather than cutting metal or producing parts. The rate of exchange can also make a big difference as, regardless of location, one is required to pay in US$ at the going rate at the time of payment, and it is impossible to predict that 2 years in advance. (CJL)

 

[dibber25]

1 hour ago, wasabi said:

You can 'manage' currency risk with the most obvious way of doing it being to build up funds in USD, although with very low interest rates keeping a pile of cash is not a good way of using capital.  Futures contracts can also be used but would probably be expensive at two years out, although they can be traded if there is some in-house expertise.

 

It would be interesting, to put this more in context, to have an idea of how much of the actual retail price is represented by costs in USD.  

 

 

International money speculation is not a skill that many model railway manufacturers possess, I suspect. As to the costs in US$ - all of it apart from the British mark-up and VAT. (CJL)