BR Standard Clans on hills?

[1165Valour]

Just a small question on the Standard Class 6 Clans: do we know well they did on hills? They worked in some hilly regions, and I suppose they did well enough, but I was interested in finding out if there was anything more specific.

[Wheatley]

There's a fairly recent thread on here covering Clan performance. 

 

Short version - they were well thought of by the depots which used them in Class 6 (eg Jubilee) diagrams and didn't try to use them like Brittanias. 

[The Johnster]

The men who worked them over the 'Port Road', Carlisle to Stranraer, thought well of them apparently, and a loco that is thought well of on a difficult and hilly road such as this is pretty much on top of it's work.  They were probably the equivalent of a V2.

[DCB]

They were accountants engines, very reliable, very low maintenance costs, probably economical on coal, but they were class 6 the least powerful standard gauge British 4-6-2s since 1924, equivalent to a Jubilee not a Royal Scot.   They did a solid reliable job on Lancashire to Scotland services, but I understand they compared badly to Jubilees on slippery rails.   The Britannia was supposed to be a V2 equivalent, I don't think a Clan could have  hauled 22 coaches like the V2 did when the Swindon lads had tuned it up, but then again the other 180 something V2s wouldn't have managed it either.  V2 should have been more sure footed with around 7 tons more adhesion, but post war with self cleaning screens V2s didn't steam, rumour has it the Dean Goods steamed better than the Swindon V2 did when it arrived.   Its a shame the Clans were built, a Britannia with 225lbs pressure would have done everything a Clan could and had a bit in reserve but not enough power to self destruct.

[LMS2968]

2 hours ago, DavidCBroad said:

The Britannia was supposed to be a V2 equivalent, I don't think a Clan could have  hauled 22 coaches like the V2 did when the Swindon lads had tuned it up, but then again the other 180 something V2s wouldn't have managed it either.  

Don't know about that. I read somewhere - Cecil J Allen? - that during the war, the LNER took to doubling up trains with Pacifics and V2s on enormous 28 and 29 coach trains out of Kings Cross. They did it, but with an extreme cost in wear and tear, and consequent works visits, so abandoned the idea.

[great central]

58 minutes ago, LMS2968 said:

Don't know about that. I read somewhere - Cecil J Allen? - that during the war, the LNER took to doubling up trains with Pacifics and V2s on enormous 28 and 29 coach trains out of Kings Cross. They did it, but with an extreme cost in wear and tear, and consequent works visits, so abandoned the idea.

 

I think it was something like 25 coaches with a V2, the loco being already in the tunnel before departure. Must have been interesting despatching that!

I've just looked on the LNER website, no specific reference there. It's probably in one of the class reference books, if I get chance later I'll have a look through the ones I've got.

ISTR it more or less kept the wartime schedule to Peterborough.

[kevinlms]

9 hours ago, The Johnster said:

The men who worked them over the 'Port Road', Carlisle to Stranraer, thought well of them apparently, and a loco that is thought well of on a difficult and hilly road such as this is pretty much on top of it's work.  They were probably the equivalent of a V2.

I think the ex G&SWR crews were used to locos that were rather marginal and so had to be craftsmen at their job.

[Wheatley]

6 hours ago, DavidCBroad said:

  Its a shame the Clans were built, a Britannia with 225lbs pressure would have done everything a Clan could and had a bit in reserve but not enough power to self destruct.

Except where the Brittanias were too heavy. They were barred from the Port Road because of weight restrictions (the timber viaduct over the Cree I believe), which is why the Clans were used. The alternative was usually two Black Fives. 

[The Johnster]

I would regard them as 2 cylinder equivalents of the Bullied rebuilt light pacifics, which were pretty good steamers and competent on hilly routes.  Most post war designs were good steam raisers that could run on 'any old' coal, but designing a loco up to a performance and down to an axle load is challenging.  There seem to have been too few Clans to make much of an impact, and apart from the Port road no specific work for them that could not be undertaken by Britannias.  The proposed batch for the Southern were cancelled, probably because rebuilding the Bullieds was easier and cheaper. 

 

'Marginal' locos preceding them on the Port Road, well, yes, I suppose.  If the best previous was a Compound or a Black 5 this is a pretty low base to start from; no doubt such beasties were adequate for the most part but the heavy and sharply timed 'Ulsterman' and other boat trains were another problem.  One is minded of the impact the Brits had on the GE, the previous being the B17s which hardly covered  themselves in glory.  A difficult road such as the Port will engender good enginemanship to a degree, but overall one assumes that the crews were the same general sort of mix you got everywhere, some better than others.  There are plenty of other hilly main line routes that were not easy to work; Shrewsbury-Newport for example, though this was not restricted in terms of axle loads.

 

Locomen given inadequate locos will do their best, but inevitably lose time, or excessively consume coal and water, or need pilots, which seems to have been the Port Road solution.  Boat trains have to meet sailing times, and must not be allowed to get behind schedules.  Pilots are all very well if they are locos working home and saving a path, but otherwise they are an expensive way to run trains and indicate an inadequate loco policy.  Their use in the early part of the 20th century, a time when traffic, speeds, and loads were all increasing faster than the capacity of new locos to manage, was perhaps understandable, and the LMS policy with regard to the G&SW seems to have been a continuation of 'small engine', but by the 50s one would have expected something better.  This was, in the event, the Clans.

[adb968008]

8 hours ago, LMS2968 said:

Don't know about that. I read somewhere - Cecil J Allen? - that during the war, the LNER took to doubling up trains with Pacifics and V2s on enormous 28 and 29 coach trains out of Kings Cross. They did it, but with an extreme cost in wear and tear, and consequent works visits, so abandoned the idea.

Where was a 28 coach train going ?

surely it would make more sense to split it into two trains, not least in distance space, station dwell times, block sections blocked.. but in poor acceleration blocking the line too..

 

was this an american suggestion ?

Edited February 8, 2021 by adb968008

[LMS2968]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

Where was a 28 coach train going ?

surely it would make more sense to split it into two trains, not least in distance space, station dwell times, block sections blocked.. but in poor acceleration blocking the line too..

North of Kings Cross; it's hard for steam to go south of it. It was Cecil J Allen who mentions it, but a mere twenty-five coaches, in British Pacific Locomotives (1962) Ian Allan, London SBN 7110 0261 4. The reference to the V2 must have been elsewhere as it isn't in that book. Apparently, the V2 didn't have the greatest number of coaches but did have the greatest weight.

 

I think (I wasn't there at the time) it was an attempt to reduce engine mileages under war conditions. Trains were extremely crowded and it might also have been an attempt to provide extra seats at a time when paths for reliefs might have been hard to find. Whatever, it wasn't a success.

[great central]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

Where was a 28 coach train going ?

surely it would make more sense to split it into two trains, not least in distance space, station dwell times, block sections blocked.. but in poor acceleration blocking the line too..

 

was this an american suggestion ?

 

In wartime the railways were often working well beyond their intended capacity, so it's quite likely there were no other locos or crews available. But when there's things, goods or passengers, to be moved people and machines stepped up.

[pH]

4 hours ago, The Johnster said:

'Marginal' locos preceding them on the Port Road, well, yes, I suppose.  If the best previous was a Compound or a Black 5 this is a pretty low base to start from ...

There were class 6s on the Port Road before the Clans - Jubilees (although classed as ‘5X’ for part of the time). According to David L. Smith, they were the mainstay of both routes to Stranraer through most of WW2 - a Crewe North engine even had a regular job on one of the boat trains. And they were there into BR days, even after the Clans arrived. 
 

There were even visits to the Port Road from genuine LMS class 6s (BR class 7, equivalent to Britannias). Unrebuilt Royal Scots were known to have been used occasionally over the line from Dumfries.

[Right Away]

Peter Townend, in his book “East Coast Pacifics at Work” in the chapter “Green Arrows to Pacifics”, page 109 refers to V2 engines working lengthy wartime trains out of the “Cross”.

[DaveTurner]

I don’t think a Clan was comparable with a Bulleid light Pacific. Putting aside the debate about the original design, the-rebuilds routinely did the work of Merchant Navy class 8s.  Indeed at the 1948 exchanges the light pacifics showed exceptional power output though burnt more coal doing their work. The Britannia’s were probably equivalent to a Bulleid but the two cylinder arrangement was not so smooth at speed.  Pacifics generally are less sure footed than 4-6-0s because the trailing truck can unload the the driving wheels especially on uneven track. 

[NorthEndCab]

On 08/02/2021 at 07:00, LMS2968 said:

Don't know about that. I read somewhere - Cecil J Allen? - that during the war, the LNER took to doubling up trains with Pacifics and V2s on enormous 28 and 29 coach trains out of Kings Cross. They did it, but with an extreme cost in wear and tear, and consequent works visits, so abandoned the idea.

Didn’t this lead to an accident due to the driver not being aware they were actually slipping backwards due to being in the tunnel and blackout conditions?

[2251]

18 hours ago, NorthEndCab said:

Didn’t this lead to an accident due to the driver not being aware they were actually slipping backwards due to being in the tunnel and blackout conditions?

9 February 1945. Report here:

 

https://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/MoT_KingsCross1945.pdf

[NorthEndCab]

4 hours ago, 2251 said:

9 February 1945. Report here:

 

https://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/MoT_KingsCross1945.pdf

Thank you.

 

Reminds me of that old poem, “The Drivers to blame.”

[Caley739]

On 08/02/2021 at 19:45, pH said:

Jubilees (although classed as ‘5X’ for part of the time). According to David L. Smith, they were the mainstay of both routes to Stranraer through most of WW2 - a Crewe North engine even had a regular job on one of the boat trains. And they were there into BR days, even after the Clans arrived. 
 

The Crewe North diagram was for a 5XP later 6P 4-6-0 and was usually a Jubilee but an orginal Patriot did turn up accasionally.

[pH]

6 minutes ago, Caley739 said:

The Crewe North diagram was for a 5XP later 6P 4-6-0 and was usually a Jubilee but an orginal Patriot did turn up accasionally.

Where did you read/hear that? (Genuine question, I’m not being awkward.) David L. Smith is ambiguous - he says there were original Patriots on “the Stranraer line”, but there were two of those! And original Patriots did work to Stranraer via Girvan - Derek Cross has written of a footplate trip with driver McCann of Stranraer.