Reculver, Kent - a "What If?" Layout Discussion.

[sigtech]

Hello Ray, - sounds like you lived very close to where i grew up in Kent. (1956-1973)

My parents house was located near the bottom of a small cul-de-sac that overlooked the main  BR.(SR) lines between Margate and Broadstairs. These are in a cutting between the road overbridges at St. Peters roundabout and the next one down by the old East Kent tram/bus sheds and the gasworks. I spent many hours sitting on the platforms of Margate, Broadstairs and Ramsgate stations, train spotting - and to start with everying was in green. Your proposed layout ideas sound interesting, and most of the places you mention, I have wandered around when young and on the lookout for railways. The Elham Valley line was one of my favourites - and I walked most of it in the early 70's.

With regard to the ' Trainflow',programme mentioned, it is still available - I have purchased a copy only just recently,but have  yet to try it out!!

 

Regards.

SIGTECH

Steve.

Edited February 11, 2021 by sigtech
More waffle...

[Ray Von]

So (let me see if I'm following correctly.) 

 

In this scenario, the station would be situated at Reculver  -or somewhere remarkably similar - i.e. the fictitious coastal town of "Dent-de-Lion" complete with holiday park and historic places to visit.

 

One section of track is served via the Ramsgate-London line, so far so good, I know this line...

 

The other section - platforms one and two - is served from Canterbury East(?) and prior to there maybe Ashford, Hastings and beyond?

 

 

[Nearholmer]

5 minutes ago, Ray Von said:

The other section - platforms one and two - is served from Canterbury East(?) and prior to there maybe Ashford, Hastings and beyond?

 

In my head, the "other" service is a 2H trudling all the way down the ex-EKLR via Wingham to Shephersdwell, with barely a soul on board, but that does seem a bit daft, and even more unlikely than most of my ideas, so .........

 

Maybe the bit of the EKLR north of the Canterbury-Minster line was electrified under the KC scheme, and we have a 2-HAP shuttling between Canterbury West and Reculver. That ought at least to have some customers on it.

 

 

[Nearholmer]

Further map:

 

 

[Ray Von]

31 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Further map:

 

 

Thank you so much, that's a great help in visualising the place on a map!  Brilliant.

Great fun to be had I think!!!  I'm well aware we've wandered slightly off topic, maybe I'll change the title... 

*Edit* title changed to better reflect the content!  

Edited February 11, 2021 by Ray Von

[Ray Von]

Reading back through the posts, a few times "a runaround" has been suggested on the lower part of the layout - does this need to be modelled or could it be "out of sight"? 

 

[DCB]

An off scene run round loop has a prototype at Barnstaple where the 3  platform junction station was slimmed down to 1 platform, 1 line of track and a short run round, about 4 wagons long provided qquite a long way away from the station so engineers trains could run round but to ensure enthusiasts excursions couldn't.    You could connect both halves of the station and run trains in on one line and out on the other.    It was quite common for two trains to depart simultaneously from a station on parallel tracks,, Marylerbone, Kings Cross, Edinburgh Waverley., even if the two tracks became one (four became two) a short distance down the line.

[Nearholmer]

If you can fit the crossover to create a run-round on the scenic part of the layout, you'll find that it gives more operational interest.

 

In all this terraforming of Kent, we haven't got to the bottom of what happens in that warehouse, have we?

 

126 has suggested Kellogs traffic, which might work, and I did wonder about fertiliser, from the UKF train from Ince that sent wagons to various places, but that doesn't feel all that likely. In another thread there was recently a discussion about tinned/packeted food coming from a Batchelor's factory somewhere to Ashford by rail at this period.

 

Or, what about it being an outward flow - does the area produce enough seafood to justify a pack and freeze operation of the volume that would need rail transport? Or, could it be wine, being imported by the boat-load, and bottled here? Wasn't Cinzano imported in rail tankers and bottled in the UK? 

 

All very period: a Batchelor's Cuppa-Soup, followed by a Kellog's Pop-Tart(*), washed down with a glass of slightly warm and flat Cinzano Bianco. Its a wonder we lived to tell the tale!

 

Chocolate? Vans of chocolate and chocolate biscuits from Cadbury? I bet Kent gets through a fair bit of that sort of thing.

 

(*)Actually, checking, it seems that the UK was spared these until 1990.

[Ray Von]

30 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

In all this terraforming of Kent, we haven't got to the bottom of what happens in that warehouse, have we?

Are we talking about the large Railfreight Depot or "Suder's" - the repossessed goods shed? I'm happy to rebrand either in the interest of "authenticity"! 

 

[Nearholmer]

Ah, I'd forgotten that there were two ........... I'm struggling to find half-plausible traffic for one!

[Ray Von]

2 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Ah, I'd forgotten that there were two ........... I'm struggling to find half-plausible traffic for one!

The Railfreight Depot occupies about two coach lengths of platform one, Suder's Worldwide Dispatch is next door and much more modest at one van length, attached to the station building at the very end of the platform.

[PatB]

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

 

(*)Actually, checking, it seems that the UK was spared these until 1990. 

Really? That late? My memory of their introduction (or, at least, the ads appearing on TV) feels much older than that.

 

I'm starting to realise why my grandmother seemed to lump everything that happened between about 1920 and 1960 into one, largely homogeneous, era. .

[Dungrange]

1 hour ago, Ray Von said:

The Railfreight Depot occupies about two coach lengths of platform one, Suder's Worldwide Dispatch is next door and much more modest at one van length, attached to the station building at the very end of the platform.

 

Could one or other of these be used as a parcels depot?  I'm thinking Red Star here, although I've no idea if there would actually be any parcels traffic on the line to platform 1, as I'm not familiar with Kent.

[Ray Von]

6 hours ago, Dungrange said:

 

Could one or other of these be used as a parcels depot?  I'm thinking Red Star here, although I've no idea if there would actually be any parcels traffic on the line to platform 1, as I'm not familiar with Kent.

I had the very same thought a few weeks ago:

 

The consensus was "Railfreight" (or rather "Speedlink" to be more prototypical!)

As I've got a rake of Railfreight red and grey liveried vans, I decided to stretch reality a bit...

 

[C126]

Re my goods handling suggestions, I, also, was confused by the two establishments in one frontage; sorry about that.  Also, I am not sure what sort of economy North Kent had then.  I assume only vans will be handled at the Railfreight and Suder's, and one flow could be a block company train of 'comestibles' from the north (but this means a repeated rake of identical vans).

 

For 'Speedlink' wagon-load traffic, could shell-fish be harvested in quantities sufficient to be sent speedily up to Town by rail?  VEAs from the quay-side, loaded thus owing to tight curves in the docks, and reversed to add to the main train?  What is the land-use for the area?  This should prompt thoughts on goods in and out.  It looks very much like Pevensey marshes: bleak, desolate, and dotted with sheep.  Could sea-salt be harvested, packaged, and sent out?  If not fertilizer, how about (bagged) animal feed, seed, and chemicals in occasionally to a merchant's?  Extractive industries need hoppers and opens, rather than vans, but is there any light engineering, associated with the sea nearby?  Is there food grown nearby that could be processed and dispatched?

 

I am not quite up to speed - not enough Darjeeling drunk yet to-day - but hope the above helps supplement Nearholmer's ideas.

[Nearholmer]

I'm no expert on the economy of N.E.Kent c1980, but recollections:

 

- tourism/leisure;

 

- pasturing sheep and cattle on the semi-marshy bits;

 

- arable on the drier bits;

 

- a fair bit of light-to-middling engineering manufacturing (one of my bro's is a production designer, and he worked for several years for a specialist vehicle builder in the area, mostly designing bin lorries and street sweepers for export to Russia, although that was c2000, and Triang-Hornby probably fit this bracket);

 

- some food manufacture/processing;

 

- coal mining and associated support industries;

 

- servicing some of the cross-channel ferry industry;

 

Any locals with long memories out there?

 

Besides coal, most of the N.Kent heavy industry, paper, cement, oil, estuarine gravel, military traffic etc. was a bit further west than we are here.

 

Mind you, the military are always a good fall-back when trying to think of traffic sources - we could always inflict a gunnery range on the area.

 

Edited February 12, 2021 by Nearholmer

[Ray Von]

I recall a cement/gravel(?) works in Whitstable Harbour c1990, but that was west of this location.  Cattle - Ashford and surrounding areas. 

M.o.D. airfield at Manston (very nearby) until the mid nineties.

 

I like the shellfish idea, these were and are very abundant in the area - but not exploited as far as I'm aware...

Maybe even fish caught by trawler could be packed here?

 

[Nearholmer]

I’m 99% sure I’ve read about oysters being sent to London by train, but back in Victorian/Edwardian days, when there was no viable alternative transport.

 

....... at the company’s peak in the 1850s, it was sending as many as 80 million oysters a year to Billingsgate fish market. By then the plentiful oyster had become the food of the poor.

Edited February 12, 2021 by Nearholmer

[C126]

3 hours ago, Ray Von said:

I recall a cement/gravel(?) works in Whitstable Harbour c1990, but that was west of this location.  Cattle - Ashford and surrounding areas. 

M.o.D. airfield at Manston (very nearby) until the mid nineties.

 

I like the shellfish idea, these were and are very abundant in the area - but not exploited as far as I'm aware...

Maybe even fish caught by trawler could be packed here?

 

 

The problem with cement/gravel is it would be long block trains, rather than Speedlink wagon-load.  However, R.A.F. Manston could see deliveries of 'government stores'.

 

3 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

I’m 99% sure I’ve read about oysters being sent to London by train, but back in Victorian/Edwardian days, when there was no viable alternative transport.

 

....... at the company’s peak in the 1850s, it was sending as many as 80 million oysters a year to Billingsgate fish market. By then the plentiful oyster had become the food of the poor.

 

It occurred to me later that shell-fish and boat-catches would be more likely to be sent up 'fast' via N.P.C.C.S., rather than Speedlink, which obviates the need for those cute VEAs.  Bother.  However, perhaps one could have traffic of bagged cement in or out?

[Nearholmer]

Could we have a washing-machine or ‘fridge factory? 
 

By the 70s imported (Zanussi etc) ones were taking over (and they came by rail), but there were quite big factories still in seemingly unlikely places in the south of England - there was a big ‘fridge factory next to the Bognor branch, although I’m pretty sure they no longer used rail by 1980.

 

Or maybe this is an importer’s depot receiving ferry vanloads of ‘washing machines, or .......

 

Huge amounts of vegetables came from Italy and Spain (still do), and there was a big Transfesa depot at Paddock Wood. A smaller version serving just NE Kent? Odd places did have regular flows of this kind - there was one at Hove IIRC.

 

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of some sort of domestic appliance factory - it fits the sort of things the area did, needs raw materials in, and produces van-loads outwards, to go ‘all over’, including export. LEC at Bognor famously supplied co-op branded ‘fridges; maybe yours makes toasters and fan heaters for them.

 

 

Edited February 12, 2021 by Nearholmer

[whart57]

On 10/02/2021 at 16:11, Nearholmer said:

Hmmm .........

 

For the basic passenger service, I suggest that we assume it to be a short spur from the Faversham-Margate Line, served by an hourly 4-CEP, detached at the junction from the Down train from London, and attaching to the Up train to London ........ which is a bit dull, but very realistic! You could add variety, and make things even more realistic, by buying a 2-HAP, which could shuttle back and forth to the junction all day, with the CEP only forming morning peak Up, and evening peak Down London services.

 

 

 

Look at Sheerness for inspiration.

 

Now as someone who lived in Herne Bay until the early 70's this is my patch so I would point out that you can have two types of EMU here, the 4-CEP on an hourly Victoria service and a suitable door for every compartment class for the hourly Charing Cross via Dartford service.

 

Another suggestion, and an idea I have toyed with, is to change hydrological history. Imagine that in some medieval storm the sea surged up the Wantsum, diverted the Great Stour and carved out a great bay. Come the railway age and the line from Faversham to Whitstable and Herne Bay terminates at the harbour town of Reculver. That might give you a fair bit of scope for freight. What about import or export of new cars?

[Ray Von]

4 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Could we have a washing-machine or ‘fridge factory? 
 

By the 70s imported (Zanussi etc) ones were taking over (and they came by rail), but there were quite big factories still in seemingly unlikely places in the south of England - there was a big ‘fridge factory next to the Bognor branch, although I’m pretty sure they no longer used rail by 1980.

 

Or maybe this is an importer’s depot receiving ferry vanloads of ‘washing machines, or .......

 

Huge amounts of vegetables came from Italy and Spain (still do), and there was a big Transfesa depot at Paddock Wood. A smaller version serving just NE Kent? Odd places did have regular flows of this kind - there was one at Hove IIRC.

I like both those ideas, and the MOD one...

Would the depot need "rebranding" from Railfreight to reflect it's function, or could it remain largely nondescript?  Also, do any of these proposals require new rolling stock?

Thanks again.

[whart57]

4 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

I'm no expert on the economy of N.E.Kent c1980, but recollections:

 

- tourism/leisure;

 

- pasturing sheep and cattle on the semi-marshy bits;

 

- arable on the drier bits;

 

- a fair bit of light-to-middling engineering manufacturing (one of my bro's is a production designer, and he worked for several years for a specialist vehicle builder in the area, mostly designing bin lorries and street sweepers for export to Russia, although that was c2000, and Triang-Hornby probably fit this bracket);

 

- some food manufacture/processing;

 

- coal mining and associated support industries;

 

- servicing some of the cross-channel ferry industry;

 

Any locals with long memories out there?

 

Besides coal, most of the N.Kent heavy industry, paper, cement, oil, estuarine gravel, military traffic etc. was a bit further east than we are here.

 

Mind you, the military are always a good fall-back when trying to think of traffic sources - we could always inflict a gunnery range on the area.

 

 

You mean the heavy industry was further West surely.

There wasn't much in the way of industry requiring rail in that area, either in the chosen period or earlier. Goods yards were mostly closed by the 1970s. I remember seeing coal wagons, and only coal wagons, in the goods yard at Herne Bay c.1962, but no freight stock at all c.1970. Coal for town gas works was not needed after the mid 60s as this region was one of the first in the country to switch to natural gas. Pfizers at Richborough might have brought some chemicals in by rail, and there might have been some food processing requiring van traffic, but most of that went by road. Whitstable harbour after all lost its rail link in 1952.

[Nearholmer]

My gut feel is the BR was not into owning any freight facilities itself at this date (someone correct me if that's wrong), and that at most it provided space for customers, so I'm imagining that the warehouse belongs to the customer, whose factory is either directly adjacent, or on the other side of town with a lorry shuttling pallets across.

[Nearholmer]

6 minutes ago, whart57 said:

You mean the heavy industry was further West surely.

 

I did, and I've corrected it.

 

Must have been holding me compass upside down - its because I moved from Sussex to north of London several years ago ....... East Kent used to be on the right; now its on the left!