Reculver, Kent - a "What If?" Layout Discussion.

[Ray Von]

Thanks chaps.  So, as far as I understand the term, this timetable is clock-face(?) Or have I got the wrong end of the stick?

[Nearholmer]

‘Clock face’ is used to mean a service that runs at the same minutes past each hour, every hour.

 

So yes, yours is - it’s so normal for the southern that I can’t imagine anyone setting-out to do otherwise.

[C126]

Glad to read the last two blog postings, and the draft time-table above.  It was a source of constant annoyance when we went on holiday to France in the early 1980's that S.N.C.F. did not copy the Southern's 'clock-face' practice.

 

Anyway, I attach two quick photographs from an early 1970's 'Mandatory' W.T.T. (i.e., Freight), to express a hope for exquisite artisan time-table compositing in this style.  Or perhaps not!  If someone has the relevant passenger W.T.T., I hope they can post a few pages.  I regret I have only the Central Division.

 

 

 

[Ray Von]

That's very impressive, I think I'll be at the "scribbled notes" stage for quite a while.

I've been running the timetable today and it works well.  I think I could probably "compress" it a bit and have trains arriving and departing the two halves of the layout at overlapping times - as they don't share a line - this will make it feel busier.

 

Also, although not prototypical, I'd like to have some longer turnarounds - with scenarios such as diesel locos arriving with coaches attached, uncoupling and having the coaches detached to another line to be recoupled etc. or coaches arriving via shunter to be coupled to a loco when it arrives.

 

At the moment I'm more than happy just to potter about though! 

[whart57]

3 hours ago, Ray Von said:

First Attempt at a Timetable:

I've not done an entire day, just up to about 4pm.

I think it's ok for an uneducated attempt, any advice and tweaks more than welcome! 

 

Not bad, but you would be surprised if I didn't have a few suggestions  

 

The first is that from recollection, the Victoria and Charing Cross trains weren't at neat 30 minute intervals. I also have jiggling in my memory that the real Victoria service was 38 minutes past the hour at Herne Bay. As that is the train your 4-CEP would be coupling up to then 20 minutes past the hour would be about right or perhaps a 25 minutes past the hour so your passengers aren't staring out the window waiting for something to happen on Herne Bay's platform 2 for too long.

 

Either an on the hour departure for the Charing X service or one at 40 minutes past would be my suggestion.

 

I think you are probably right in having the clock-face pattern kicking in after 8 am, but you do need trains to London before then. The first at around 6.30 and then maybe four more before 8 am

 

If you have the stock then it would add interest if your Cannon Street service had to occupy a second platform because the primary platform was already in use. That is achievable if there is an 7.40 am Charing X service on platform 3, and your Cannon Street service, which I would have earlier at 7.50 am, is loading up on platform 4.

 

On the platform 1-2 side I think you could have a really early London train, say a 6.50 London Victoria via Deal, Dover, Ashford and (possibly) Redhill. Not one you'd go to London on but one for passengers who travel to work between the various towns

 

From memory too, the standard Thanet-Victoria trains were headcode 50.

Edited February 18, 2021 by whart57

[Ray Von]

7 minutes ago, whart57 said:

From memory too, the standard Thanet-Victoria trains were headcode 50.

That's handy:

[Ray Von]

25 minutes ago, whart57 said:

If you have the stock then it would add interest if your Cannon Street service had to occupy a second platform because the primary platform was already in use. That is achievable if there is an 7.40 am Charing X service on platform 3, and your Cannon Street service, which I would have earlier at 7.50 am, is loading up on platform 4.

I've just been playing around - having the Cannon Street service arrive diesel hauled at platform 3 then detached, the diesel leaves and a new loco attached (the Charing Cross service has been waiting patiently on platform 4 while all this goes on!) - there's no "real world" logic to it, but it's an operational bit of fun!

[whart57]

Ah, a major electrical breakdown between Maidstone and Chislehurst ........

[Ray Von]

34 minutes ago, whart57 said:

On the platform 1-2 side I think you could have a really early London train, say a 6.50 London Victoria via Deal, Dover, Ashford and (possibly) Redhill. Not one you'd go to London on but one for passengers who travel to work between the various towns

 

Would this be a whole new service, or a variation on an existing one? (I think I need a rail atlas!!)

[Nearholmer]

3 hours ago, whart57 said:

6.50 London Victoria via Deal, Dover, Ashford and (possibly) Redhill.

 

Redhill-Tonbridge wasn't electrified then, and it seems a bit of a stretch to imagine a DEMU being used quite so far 'over the juice'. 

[C126]

You really do need a Working Time-Table (W.T.T.) for the line (Section WA) in the relevant period to model your service.  Can you find one for sale on certain web-sites?  If you have never read one before, you are in for a surprise...

Edited February 18, 2021 by C126
Additional info.

[Ray Von]

2 minutes ago, C126 said:

You really need a Working Time-Table (W.T.T.) for the line in the relevant period to model your service.  Can you find one for sale on certain web-sites?  If you have never read one before, you are in for a surprise...

I'll see what I can find, thanks for the idea! 

[whart57]

29 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

 

Redhill-Tonbridge wasn't electrified then, and it seems a bit of a stretch to imagine a DEMU being used quite so far 'over the juice'. 

 

Yes you are right, my error. It'll be Tonbridge-Sevenoaks then.

[C126]

16 hours ago, C126 said:

You really do need a Working Time-Table (W.T.T.) for the line (Section WA) in the relevant period to model your service.  Can you find one for sale on certain web-sites?  If you have never read one before, you are in for a surprise...

 

Actually, I think, looking at: https://britishrailwaybooks.co.uk/wtt/sregion/sregionindex.php

 

...it might be Section WB, "SOUTH EASTERN DIVISION - MAIN LINE (via North Kent and Chatham)".  Do check before you buy one.

[Pacific231G]

On 16/02/2021 at 19:42, Nearholmer said:

Full report

 

https://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/DoE_Eltham1972.pdf

 

Shocking reading even fifty years on.

Indeed. Fortunately, such incidents seem to have been very rare  on Britain's railways. Do we know what became of the secondman Stokes?

[Ray Von]

On 19/02/2021 at 08:58, C126 said:

 

Actually, I think, looking at: https://britishrailwaybooks.co.uk/wtt/sregion/sregionindex.php

 

...it might be Section WB, "SOUTH EASTERN DIVISION - MAIN LINE (via North Kent and Chatham)".  Do check before you buy one.

Woohoo!

This afternoon's reading taken care of....

[C126]

Hurrah!  I am so glad for you.  Inspired by your example, I tried plotting a 'pattern' to my (still theoretical) passenger trains yester-day, and trying to interweave parcels, news, milk, etc.  Never knew platform occupation and usage was so complicated!  Happy reading, and let us know how you get on.

[Ray Von]

23 minutes ago, C126 said:

Hurrah!  I am so glad for you.  Inspired by your example, I tried plotting a 'pattern' to my (still theoretical) passenger trains yester-day, and trying to interweave parcels, news, milk, etc.  Never knew platform occupation and usage was so complicated!  Happy reading, and let us know how you get on.

Far away places with strange sounding names...

[Ray Von]

Junction here, just like my fictional one.  Must put the book away now, pizza for lunch!

 

[eastwestdivide]

On 25/02/2021 at 13:53, Ray Von said:

Far away places with strange sounding names...

Your 1E12 to Newcastle, headcode C9, TO (Tuesdays only), is the summer-only weekly SAGA train - various threads on that on here and also over on wnxxforum.

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/142250-saga-trains-1980s/

 

[The Johnster]

I have devised a real time timetable for Cwmdimbath based loosely, as is much of the layout, on Abergwynfi 1960 WTT, which I happen to posess.  It was constructed around the services that frequented Abergwynfi, auto and loco hauled passenger trains from Bridgend, workmen's service to Tremains Halt for the ROF/industrial estate (mile east of Bridgend on the SWML), colliery clearances, a pickup, and additional paths for an express goods, an NPCCS service, and an occasional as required pigeon special, plus an as required afternoon pick to serve the general goods needs of the colliery, which is having a new canteen and pithead baths built, as well as needing pit props and GPV now and then.

 

I have modified the Abergwynfi table in accordance with the way the Bridgend/Tondu branches were worked.  In reality during my 1948-58 period there were services from Bridgend to Abergwynfi, Nantymoel, and Blaengarw (closed 1953), and of course coal and pickup workings to each of those branches as well from Tondu.  Tondu was the inland terminus of the Porthcawl branch, but some trains from Porthcawl ran via Bridgend to Tondu and vice verse, thus becoming reversed by this triangular route, and some of their diagrams involved evening workings to Abergwynfi.

 

The Valleys platform at Bridgend was a loop making the down side platform an island, and all 3 Valleys services used it together, being called on into it after the arrival of the first train, a combined Nanymoel/Blaengarw in pre auto days, so first in last out.  Last in first out was the Abergwynfi train, which serviced Maesteg, the largest centre of population after Bridgend in the area, and thus the 'most important' route.  This was achieved by the loco of the first train in running around to attach to the Abergwynfi and the incoming Abergwynfi uncoupling from it's train and coupling to the train ahead of it. 

 

Cwmdimbath is located in reality to the east of Blackmill, the junction for Blaengarw, just east of Glynogwr on the Gilfach Goch branch, closed 1930 and lifted by my time.  In my scenorio, Blackmill is hence still a junction during my period (the real Cwmdimbath once had a tramroad which forms the trackbed of my imagined branch).  There is another junction between Blackmill and Tondu, Brynmenyn, for the Nantymoel branch, and in fact a further 2 if you include the Llanharan and Ogmore Yard junctions immediately east of Tondu, but for timetabling purposes I regard these as part of the Tondu complex; at train that has arrived at them has effectively arrived at Tondu for my purposes.  The Blaengarw branch generated much coal traffic for many years after it's passenger service closed in 1953.

 

So, for timetabling Cwmdimbath, I cannot simply have passenger trains arriving and departing at times convenient for local traffic or connecting with SWML trains at Bridgend (or Porthcawl ones at Tondu for that matter) without considering that they will not necessarily have a clear run through to Bridgend without having to be delayed at the junctions waiting for Nantymoel and Blaengarw traffic to clear the single line sections between Glynogwr, Blackmill, and Tondu, which were single line sections worked at what was pretty close to 100% capacity.  It is probably preferable for such trains to wait at Cwmdimbath until a convenient path is free, and more passengers have time to avail themselves of the services.  

 

Similarly, the goods and mineral workings have to make allowance for traffic on the other branches.  The running times to Blackmill must be taken into account as well, allowing for the trains to clear the section and the Blackmill signalman to block back and the road requested for the next working, which thus cannot always be timed to depart as soon as possible.  I allow 10 minutes for this in the case of passenger or NPCCS trains, and 15 for goods or mineral trains, thus if a passenger train departs CDB and the next arrival is a mineral, 25 minutes must elapse before the mineral arrives.

 

Thus, the challenge of operating CDB is to complete all shunting and colliery exchange moves before the next arrival is belled  from Blackmill, though a bit of leeway can be granted while the train makes it's way up the branch to the (off stage) outer home, with the signalman getting increasingly fractious.  Shunting moves, in fact all operations, are carried out at what I consider realistic speed based on my making chuff chuff noises, 4 to a driving wheel revolution since I don't have any Gresleys, Bullieds, or Royal Scots.  Trains are held for periods at the terminus for the reason outlined above, and the limitations of the trackplan mean that this means the run around is occupied, and using the colliery exchange siding as a lay by can only be done with the permission of the NCB's surface shift foreman, as it is also the headshunt for the colliery's off stage washery sidings.  Failure to clear the washery is serious if it goes on for a prolonged period, as if washed coal cannot be loaded into empty wagons then it backs up to the screens, pithead, and underground workings which must come to a halt; the traffic has to be kept flowing.

 

'Real Time' does not mean that I get up at 05.50 to drive the miner's workman's to time.  The layout is orientated correctly, by coincidence rather than design, so I can use natural daylight if I want, but a stopwatch/coundown timer function on my phone means that CDB time can be stopped and started at will, but the rule is that no movement can be undertaken while the clock is stopped.  When a train arrives. a countdown timer is started until it's arrival, and when it departs, another is started until the next timetable arrival.  The timers, sometimes several running at once, can be individually or collectively paused, but again no movement can be undertaken while any of them are paused.

 

The signal box is open from 06.00 until 22. 25, (arrivial at Blackmill of 22.15 loaded mineral to Ogmore Jc Yard), while the last train, an auto which does not require the services of the signalman, runs to the same timing as the actual last Abergwynfi disgorged it's load of connectees from the last down Paddington and the Bridgend fleshpot throwouts at 23.55 and departed 00.01 (probably 23.55 and 20 seconds in reality) ecs TDU.  The station lights are turned off by the signalman at 22.25, but street, platform, and NCB lights remain on for the session duration.  The auto set used for the last train is lit.

 

The next improvement to this, which is still being refined as anomalies show up, will be an analogue battery clock with the power supply wired through a switch.  The advantage is that there is a good balance of challenging operation to get the shunting finished in time and allow time for locomotives to water (3 minutes for a 56xx, 4 for large prairies and 42xx, 2 for panniers, unless it's a 'top up', brake continuity tests (connect vacuum hoses, blow brake off, instruct driver to destroy vacuum, check brakes, blow off again, about 3 minutes during which the guard can't be in two places at once), shunters to walk to different locations, and guards to give drivers the load slip or change tail lamps,, and on the other hand periods of 'nothing much happening' which allow me to relax, just look at the model, do some colliery shunting with the Peckett, or make up the next trains in the fiddle yard.   Or stop time and do some casual modelling.

 

 

 

 

[whart57]

Has any more progress been made on this, Ray?

[Ray Von]

Hello all, 

 

As often happens with a house move, I have had to sell my "Dent de Lion" layout due to space restrictions - it was a tough decision, but it is going to a someone who really likes what I had made and is keen to keep it going, and bringing it into 2024 by converting it to DCC!

 

However, I am keeping all my rolling stock, and I am keen to recreate the spirit of the layout - on a skinny, automated, DC, as a shelf, shuttle setup.

 

With this clean slate, I would be very interested to hear people's wonderful ideas once more.

 

Location:

Reculver.

 

Era: 

Circa 1980.

 

Infrastructure:

Zanussi depot (as before) plus one or two other low-relief industry buildings situated at the rear of the layout.

One "Island" platform serving two lines, once again - London to Ramsgate via Faversham, Dover to London via Minster.

(Or perhaps not...)

 

As you can see, this is a stripped down version of it's predecessor with the emphasis being on displaying locos rather than operations - I would love to hear your suggestions!

 

Attached is a rough sketch of the basic layout.

 

 

[C126]

Gosh, was it really three years ago we had the discussions about this?!  So sorry for your changing circumstances, but glad to see you are using the opportunity to make something new.  Your example inspired me to type up a couple of Working Time Table pages eventually for my layout (still unfinished).

 

Any chance you could post the missing photos on this thread as a record, if it would not be too emotionally taxing, please?  I always liked your 'split station' layout, and was envious of the idea.

 

 

[whart57]

Hi Ray, good to see the Reculver idea getting an airing.

 

Just for the benefit of anyone coming new to this, here is a link to the imaginary Reculver story I put together