Seagulls?

[Mol_PMB]

I'd like to add a few gulls to my Manchester Ship Canal based layout. I know the layout is at an early stage but the track is laid and I'm starting work on a couple of structures which I'd like to detail with some appropriate birds.

 

I've been googling for model seagulls, model birds etc in various scales and found the process quite frustrating - I keep getting hits for models of gull-wing cars or aircraft called seagull, or model vans branded for Birds custard!

 

I am aware of the Langley models castings; the problem with them is that the packs are mostly flying birds, whereas I want a row of them perching. Not only would I waste a lot of money on flying birds, there would be little variety of the castings for the perching birds.

I found a few options for 3D printed gulls but the shapes weren't convincing.

Preiser do a mixed pack of birds but again there are very few perching seagulls in the pack, and they look a bit small for my purposes.

There are a couple of options in the USA but at ruinous prices once shipping and taxes are included.

 

I haven't mentioned scale yet. My trains are O gauge. But real gulls vary quite a lot in size: for example an adult great black-backed gull is more than twice as long as an adult black-headed gull (I've seen both near the prototype location of my model). Herring gulls and lesser black-backed gulls are also common here and intermediate in size. So it could well be that a 4mm scale model 'seagull' would be a good size for a 7mm scale black-headed gull, while a 7mm 'seagull' would suit a herring gull and a 1:35 'seagull' could be a great black-backed gull. I'd quite like to have the variety in sizes and colours.

 

I should get to the point. Can anyone recommend model seagulls, ideally mostly perched, of any scale between 1:76 and 1:35 or thereabouts?

 

Many thanks,

Mol

 

 

 

[GRASinBothell]

Duncan Models in Salisbury do a set of 6 seagulls (two in flight, plus one just taking off or landing) in 7mm scale.

http://www.duncanmodels.co.uk/price_list_figures_and_animals.htm

Here's a couple of them on the beach on my layout.

Hope that helps.

Gordon

[Mol_PMB]

Many thanks Gordon, those look great. 

Your beach is very convincing too - good work!

Cheers,

Mol

[Flood]

These are in 4mm from Dart Castings, part of their A11 pack:

I chatted to Dart Castings at an exhibition (Warley?) and they kindly supplied just perching ones for me.

 

I painted them as lesser black backed gulls as that suited Aberdeen. That would make them 7-8mm in length, possibly too small for what you need.

Edited April 4, 2022 by Flood

[Mol_PMB]

That’s great, many thanks.

I’ll do some calcs but it does sound like they’re too small for large gulls in 7mm. Maybe OK for black-headed gulls though, and they are the most common here. 

Cheers,

Mol

[hmrspaul]

Roundfield Engineering did a nice set a long time ago - but may be worth advertising for them. IIRC the set I bought had 6 perched and two fliers. 

 

I also like the Duncan models - they do other birds. He is a modeller and may be willing to substitute perched birds in place of fliers, although this may depend on how his moulds work. 

 

Some of mine (ignore the penguin!). Urban birds are incredibly common in Britain and I think are overlooked too often on models. 

 

 

Paul

 

[Mol_PMB]

Great, many thanks Paul, I'll have a search for those. Yours look great, I think you have some corvids there too - maybe Jackdaws?

 

As you say, urban birds are very common and sometimes there are many hundreds of gulls at Irlam Locks. There's a sewage works nearby that they flock around in huge numbers. There are many more 'interesting' birds these days, but I suspect back in the 1960s the pollution in the ship canal would have deterred the less hardy species.

 

Regarding Flood's Dart Castings gulls, the black-headed gull adult size is 35-39cm. 35cm is 8mm in 7mm:ft scale so they might be OK for my smaller gulls, and then some of the Duncan Models ones for the larger species.

 

I'm not sure why all the manufacturers seem to provide mostly flying seagulls. After all, we can't model them actually moving in flight, and to support them on a wire or hang them from a string looks rather odd. Whereas perching gulls are naturally still!

 

Cheers,

Mol

 

[Dickon]

When I was building my entry for the 'Holidays' round of the cakebox challenge, I got a set of 5 very nice unpainted seagulls for £4.00 from Northumbrian Painting Services

website:  paintinghistory@live.co.uk   

phone:     01434 600529

 

[Mol_PMB]

Ah, I love that little cameo scene!

Another good source, many thanks. Looks like I should be able to get a reasonable variety of seagulls.

Cheers,

Mol

[hmrspaul]

I've mounted the flying ones on a very stiff thin black steel wire. They are fun - even getting a mention in the York Area report of the GoG Newsletter a few years ago! I could do with some pigeons!

 

Paul

[Mol_PMB]

I found these pigeons when looking for gulls. They’re 1:35 so might represent some rather well-fed examples in 7mm scale. But wood pigeons are bigger than feral pigeons so that might be a solution?

https://fieldsofglorymodels.co.uk/products/miniart-1-35-scale-pigeons?variant=32913163255940&utm_medium=cpc&utm_source=google&utm_campaign=Google Shopping&currency=GBP&gclid=EAIaIQobChMItJXgrf3f7gIV1YBQBh3-igWKEAQYBSABEgKh2PD_BwE

[Dickon]

I've just found these on the web.  Flocks of 20+ pigeons on a flexible base that you can cut up and pose as you like.

$10.99 from modeltechstudios.com, who say that they ship worldwide.

 

Edited February 11, 2021 by Dickon

[BernardTPM]

But do they have A Flock of Seagulls?

[hmrspaul]

1 hour ago, BernardTPM said:

But do they have A Flock of Seagulls?

Hi Bernard, Yes they do

O Scale SEAGULLS, Taking Off and Sitting, FINISHED   OD2028P

 

They also do Pelicans!

 

They also do some roof birds, but it is not clear to me what they are intended to represent, they don't look very European. 

 

 

 

I wonder if anyone has purchased from this company?

 

Paul

Edited February 11, 2021 by hmrspaul

[Mol_PMB]

Modeltechstudios do seem to do quite a good range of scenic details. I suspect the combination of postage costs and import duties would add significantly to the cost, but might be worth it for a large order.

 

Speaking of which I went out for a good long walk today in the sunshine and found hundreds of gulls gathered at Irlam Locks, both on the water and on the structures.

Almost all of them were the small Black-Headed Gulls, though in their winter plumage without much black on the head.

There was one larger gull among them which was a medium-sized species, I think a Common Gull (which actually aren't that common!)

 

To get close to this sort of look I'm going to need a LOT of model gulls...

I probably don't need quite so many, but at least a few dozen for the layout as a whole.

 

I've ordered a few different ones from the sources recommended above and will see what they're like.

 

[Mol_PMB]

A flock of seagulls has arrived at Molmanor, including several different species. Here is a review.

 

Langley Models supplies a pack of 10 birds for £7 (70p each), sold as 7mm scale.

There are six different poses - three flying (including one with its wings tucked in about to dive), two 'normal' perching and one perching flexing its wings. The last one isn't shown on the catalogue image.

My pack of 10 included 5 perching birds and 5 flying. The perching birds include a rather chunky representation of the legs, and a spigot for 'planting' them.

The castings have rather finely detailed feathers.

On average, the birds are 18mm long and have a wingspan of 26mm. In 7mm scale that's a bird 78cm long and a wingspan of 113cm.

These proportions aren't right - most gulls have a wingspan more than twice their length.

I'm more interested in the perching birds, so considering the length these are only really suitable to represent Great Black-Backed Gulls which have a length of 61-74cm. Here is my photo of a Great Black-Backed Gull on the Mersey; I have also seen them occasionally at Barton Locks on the Manchester Ship Canal close to the location of my layout's prototype.

 

Duncan Models supplies a pack of 6 birds for £3.50 (58p each), sold as 7mm scale

There are three different poses - one flying, one 'normal' perching and one perching flexing its wings.

I bought three packs  and received 7 flying, 16 perching and 2 flexing their wings. However, I asked for a majority of perching birds so the mix I got may not be typical.

It also adds up to rather more than 18 - many thanks to Andy Duncan!)

The castings are a bit cruder than Langley's in terms of surface detail, but better in overall shape. However, the beaks are rather 'heavy'.

The perching birds do not have any representation of legs, but do have some cast dimples as guides for drilling holes for inserting some wire legs. If you look at the photos of real gulls perching in the previous post, that's probably a much more realistic solution than Langley's. Also, they can be used without legs on the surface of any water.

On average, the birds are 15mm long and have a wingspan of 30mm. In 7mm scale that's a bird 65cm long and a wingspan of 131cm.

These proportions with the wingspan twice the length are much better than Langley's.

The common Herring Gulls are maximum 60cm long, with a wingspan 123-148cm, so they're pretty close to that size. Here is my photo of a Herring Gull on the Mersey; I have also seen them at Irlam and Barton Locks on the Manchester Ship Canal close to the location of my layout's prototype:

 

Dart Castings supplies a pack of 6 seagulls plus a cormorant for £3.20, sold as 4mm scale

There are two different poses - one flying, one 'normal' perching.

I received 3 of each shape of seagull, plus the cormorant (which is far too small for 7mm scale)

For their size, the castings are quite finely detailed, but a bit flashy.

The perching birds have a rather heavy lump to  represent the legs, but no spigot for planting them.

The flying birds are 7mm long with a wingspan of 21mm. In 7mm scale that's a bird 30cm long and a wingspan of 91cm. If anything the proportions have gone too far the other way with the wings too long and thin for the size of the body.

The perching birds are 10mm long; 43cm in 7mm scale.

The common Black Headed Gulls are 35-39cm long, with a wingspan 86-99cm, so they're pretty close to that size. There are a zillion perching Black Headed Gulls in the previous post in their winter colours, but here is my photo of one flying over the Ship Canal last summer with a proper black head:

 

 

So, to summarise.

Langley Models: the flying gulls are completely the wrong proportions. I don't really want flying ones anyway so I'm not going to use them. The perching birds can be painted as Great Black-Backed Gulls. I might sand the legs off and replace them with wire. I won't buy any more as these are much less common birds and 5 is plenty for a layout my size.

Duncan Models: the perching birds will make good Herring Gulls, with the addition of legs and perhaps thinning down the beaks a little. The flying birds would also be good for Herring Gulls if I wanted some flying ones.

Dart Castings: I probably won't use the flying gulls which are small and have odd proportions. The perching birds will make good Black Headed Gulls, with their legs replaced with wire. However, that would be quite a lot of effort and they are poor value for money for such small castings (more than £1 a bird for the ones I actually want). I will enquire to see if I can buy a batch of the perching birds at a more attractive price.

 

I have emailed ModelTechStudios in the USA with some enquiries but have not heard back yet.

Any more model seagull suppliers I should try?

 

 

 

[Mol_PMB]

Here’s a size comparison of the three types of perching bird:

Duncan top left, Langley top right, Dart below. 

[Dickon]

On 16/02/2021 at 17:50, Mol_PMB said:

 

Any more model seagull suppliers I should try?

 

 

 

 

Try Northumbrian Painting Services.  Their perched and flying birds have narrow beaks and are are generally less 'chunky' than the ones you show above. Their flying birds are 15mm long have a wing span of about 30mm.  Their wings are thin enough to be bent to pose them as in my Cakebox above.

 

Catalogue photo

Edited February 18, 2021 by Dickon
spelling

[Mol_PMB]

37 minutes ago, Dickon said:

 

Try Northumbrian Painting Services.  Their perched and flying birds have narrow peaks and are are generally less 'chunky' than the ones you show above. Their flying birds are 15mm long have a wing span of about 30mm.  Their wings are thin enough to be bent to pose them.

Thanks, I'd forgotten them. I've ordered a couple of packs and will review in the same way when they arrive.

[BernardTPM]

None seem to quite manage to capture the look of the real thing. Personally I think the legs would be best done as an etch or similar to get the spindly look (perhaps the beak too).

 

[Mol_PMB]

Funny you should say that - I was considering adding some seagull-feet to my next custom etch! I think wire is OK for the legs.

In reality they can perch in a variety of poses - the same type of bird can look to have different proportions as shown in the image below. I agree none of them are perfect, but probably in a group on a layout they would look OK.

 

If I hear back from the USA I may buy some of these from ModelTechStudios. Again the legs are too thick but the beaks look better than some.

 

 

 

[Mol_PMB]

I have added legs to some of my Duncan Models seagulls, and given them a spray of grey primer. 

Forgive the flamingo look of the legs, most of them (below the feet) will be inserted into holes in their perches. 

 

Also in this batch are a couple of unmodified Langley gulls. 

 

I’ll paint this lot up over the next few days and report back. 

[Mol_PMB]

Another episode of the seagull review!

 

Northumbrian Painting Services supplies a pack of 5 birds for £4 (80p each), sold as 7mm scale.

There are two different poses - flying and perching (photo shows two of each):

 

The two packs I bought each included 3 perching birds and 2 flying. The perching birds include a reasonably fine representation of the legs, and a spigot for 'planting' them.

The castings are a bit flashy and on some examples the mould halves are not very well aligned (see top left and bottom right birds above). Others are much better. I'm sure a bit of scraping will remove the worst effects.

The beaks are commendably thin and the basic shape is pretty good, though the perching birds are a bit more angular than some. Real perching gulls tend to be a rather smooth shape overall.

On average, the birds are 14mm long and have a wingspan of 35mm. In 7mm scale that's a bird 60cm long and a wingspan of 152cm.

These proportions are pretty good and the size is ideal for a Herring Gull (real size 54-60cm long and wingspan 123-148cm)

Lesser Black-backed Gulls have a smaller wingspan but body length is up to 56cm, so the perching birds might be suitable for those too.

 

I think I may paint up the perching birds as Lesser Black-backed Gulls, to give a contrast to the other gull types.

 

Still no response from ModelTechStudios in the USA. I did ask another slightly more tricky question at the same time. I'm reluctant to place an overseas order with them until we have opened communications.

 

Cheers,

Mol

 

[Mol_PMB]

 

Another update. Dart Castings have got back to me, and their perching gulls can be bought separately at 30p each for any quantity. I've ordered 40 which should keep me busy through a few dull work teleconferences!

Whoops, I hope none of my colleagues are reading this...

 

If you're doubting my use of 4mm scale gulls on a 7mm scale layout, I found this photo online which shows the size comparison of the real birds. Herring Gull at the back, Black-Headed Gulls in the foreground. As you can see they are clearly made to different scales!

 

[Mol_PMB]

Some of my completed gulls.

 

The large flock contains 3 large Herring Gulls from Duncan Models with scratchbuilt legs and feet.

The smaller Black-headed Gulls are from Dart Castings (intended for 4mm scale); the majority have had their legs removed and replaced with a piece of wire, and feet represented with daubs of paint. I left the feet on a few of them but they look too chunky close-up.

I think I've achieved a reasonable density of them compared to the numbers I often see at Irlam Locks. A few of the Black-headed Gulls (which actually have dark brown heads in summer) are a bit late developing their summer plumage and still have white or speckly heads as in the photo above.

A couple of Mediterranean Gulls are amongst them (with the truly black heads, white rear ends and brighter red beaks); I've sometimes seen these among flocks of Black-headed Gulls near the Ship Canal.

 

This trio includes two Herring Gulls on top, one from Duncan Models and one from Langley Models. Again, the cast feet on the latter look a bit chunky but it's nice to have a different pose.

Down below, another Duncan Models casting is finished as a Lesser Black-backed Gull (dark grey back, yellow feet).

 

That's a total of 26 gulls done, which is fewer than half the castings I bought. But I need to make some more perches!