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38 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

I called BS on you being able to add more than a certain amount of items to your basket and then pay for them.

 

You were making out that you could add 500 to your basket by showing a screenshot of items in your basket. You can, until you need to pay for it. It gets refused when you go to the next page.

 

Somehow I doubt you tried that.

You don't pay in advance for pre-orders.

There is no risk.

i know, because I did, not a £70k order, but a cheap kit, I just ordered 1 more than they had, and thats how I found the issue in their order system, and found a loop hole too (it still exists tonight too).


That is why I posted, using the extreme example, before your repost, and demonstrated it after your post, and also have shown in the 66 thread on two occasions.

 

And hence why I am pointing it out once more.

 

There was an issue on Hattons site quantities in January, you didnt believe it, and still dont, fair enough, some will never be convinced.

I did note the BR Green Bulleid allowed unlimited orders, the Malachite one did not. There were other examples, inc the RCS coaches... those orders got cancelled early on too.

 

However this thread, is in my opinion, the result of what I saw and called out last month.

 

Thing is.. now for many people they miss out, on pre-orders they thought were sound,having to find another retailer if its not sold out already, for no fault of their own.

 

Sadly to me it did not come as a surprise, indeed I was careful about pre-orders specifically expecting it,  what makes it frustrating is I did try to warn, only to be shot down, then and still now.

 

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This is doing Hattons reputation damage . 
 

Why would you pre order from them next year when there is a danger the order will be unfulfilled . It does seem that other retailers. Kernow, Derails are not affected .  Maybe they have policies not to sell to max allocation , we don’t know , but it does appear they are a safer pair of hands 

 

I do wonder if Hornby aren’t re- emphasising selling direct , there is a reference to it in their trading statement . It appears the previous management  may have got that right but were unsubtle in their approach .  It is strange that Hattons , the biggest box shifter , is having issues and the second biggest one, Rails,  has already stopped selling Hornby .  A coincidence ?

 

Hornby should know what they are getting by way of stock . Presumably they order so many units from the factories they deal with and that's contractural .  It’s difficult to see where there should suddenly be a shortage . 

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3 hours ago, robf said:

For want of being shot down by admin again, I do find the automatic Hornby bashing quite interesting when funnily enough, no one seems to be mentioning Hornby pre-orders being cancelled by any other retailer.

 

I agree, and 'other retailers' in my limited experience take all or part payment with a pre-order and will refund all or part if a certain time typically 1 month elapses without the product arriving, it gives some safety to the retailer. This will be part of the terms of the pre-order.

 

You can pre-order with Hornby and pay nothing but you will pay full RRP eventually .

 

No free lunches. The sad thing is the cancellation of good faith pre-orders.    

 

Tough life for a retailer, and burned customers, and the large ones like Hattons appear to have fallen out somewhat with Hornby, given that they used to have bargaining 'clout'  as did Rails.  With Hornby now aiming at more direct selling no wonder....

 

I have found smaller sellers like TMC, Peter's Spares, AJM, Kernow (although these are not really small sellers) have been able to supply things , and if not, they simply will not take a pre-order. Or if under-supplied I'm not sure what they do..  AJM (I was told by Amanda) was eventually given two diecast Atholls for 15 pre-order requests, note,  she never guaranteed supply and she recommended I try elsewhere, which I did.

 

So I have accepted the supply-chain irregularities as a fact of life and now pay up front with pre-orders with a promise of refund if not delivered in a 'common sense' timeframe.

 

 

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17 minutes ago, Legend said:

This is doing Hattons reputation damage . 
 

Why would you pre order from them next year when there is a danger the order will be unfulfilled . It does seem that other retailers. Kernow, Derails are not affected .  Maybe they have policies not to sell to max allocation , we don’t know , but it does appear they are a safer pair of hands 

 

I do wonder if Hornby aren’t re- emphasising selling direct , there is a reference to it in their trading statement . It appears the previous management  may have got that right but were unsubtle in their approach .  It is strange that Hattons , the biggest box shifter , is having issues and the second biggest one, Rails,  has already stopped selling Hornby .  A coincidence ?

 

Hornby should know what they are getting by way of stock . Presumably they order so many units from the factories they deal with and that's contractural .  It’s difficult to see where there should suddenly be a shortage . 

 

My feeling is that Hattons and Rails have used their power in marketing and selling as a tool in negotiating terms which Hornby now refuse.  Hornby are now offering the same terms across the board to retailers. There may be a lot more to this than we will ever reliably know.

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How does it happen ?

 

let me try again...you cannot order more in your basket than they actually have...

working as designed...

 

For benefit of doubters... I have added the time stamp too..


6E2A3EC1-7B07-46EE-BD2A-9ACCFE5729DC.jpeg.f87244932fd2983320c8cc61e141c2a7.jpeg
 

 

 

 

added 1, updated to 5....

 

 

 

B573CAAF-C5C8-4630-985A-25505FEA1117.jpeg.45e7f2be988536bdd47d508e5a3a1b43.jpeg

 


 

 

it refuses because there is only 4....

 

1011A151-3F40-4100-80C0-9CB699347D3B.jpeg.259c8513fd589067555145e69ca1053b.jpeg


 

unless theres an issue with the stock available quantity...

 

(this was from Jan 2020, and was where I raised the flag).

 

460B5864-03A3-403A-9E08-E579B693EAA1.jpeg.21f5be231051afc8bae03107ce431368.jpeg

 

Note instead of saying “more than 10 available” it simply says “on order”.
 

It will accept it, I have done it three times this year, most recently was 2 days ago... in that instance someone else nabbed it, as they had to refund me and there was only 1 left... but 2 of us must have bought it.


 

I will add there is a loop hole, that those who had orders affected that they might be able to get around, to someone else's pre-order detriment at time of arrival using Hattons site.. I will not however share it on here.

 

finally just to prove it works... there are 116 Pink class 66587’s listed available

 

5A8E9F28-6FED-43CD-B0C9-78189C08A916.jpeg.3ee2b39e47df1a0223005f578bc7e8dc.jpeg

 

because at 117 it trips out..back to 1 in my cart.

 

E0321377-FE87-413B-81B5-E5C3731BDF33.jpeg.28db4dbcfe02b8838f877d651ebab4cc.jpeg


 

 

Hornby might have reduced their allocation, but there was only 500 Bulleids being made globally, to begin with.

 

I am convinced there was an error, by design or mistake when the 2021 range was listed on their site initially! And my gut feeling then, was this thread would be inevitable at some point.

 

I should add.. it is better theyve adjusted it now, than after they arrive..

 

checking tonight pre-order totals are now updated, so assume its resolved.

 

 

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7 hours ago, Free At Last said:

Just had the cancellation email.
Well that's my Winter Fuel Payment saved. I was only buying the P2 on a whim anyway. I would not purchase from Hornby Direct, not that my decision will affect them.

Or maybe spend it on your fuel bill as intended?

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Oddly my email stated they CAN supply the W1 late crest, but the 2 Tri-Ang containers I ordered have been cancelled. No mention of the 2 20T Esso tankers on the same pre-order.

 The conflat cancellation is a pest as I do like Hattons trunk system, as far as I know no-one else offers a comparable service. It is ideal for bulking up small item orders and saving on postage.

Cheers from Oz,

Peter C.

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17 hours ago, robf said:

For want of being shot down by admin again, I do find the automatic Hornby bashing quite interesting when funnily enough, no one seems to be mentioning Hornby pre-orders being cancelled by any other retailer.

I have had Hornby pre-orders delayed for over a year with a 'local' retailer because of rationing when I could in the meantime have bought what I had on pre-order from another source - including people selling friom their front rooms or garden sheds.  So it very definitely isn't just Hattons but I expect Hattons could figure more frequently because those looking for the lowest price tend to shop there, or somewhere similar, and those retailers order and sell in much larger volume.  If somebody ordering, say 20 locos has pre-orders for 18 of them and Hornby cut his allocation by, say, 50% that person will have 8 disappointed customers but if you multiply those numbers by 10 there will be lots more disappointed customers.

 

Maybe some of the big boys take excess pre-orders and hope they'll be supplied or maybe they don't but there is no evidence of that in the public arena.  However there is very firm evidence that Hornby apply rationing and cut back what retailers - of all sizes - have ordered from them.  Whether or not their algorithim or whatever picks on certain retailers I haven't got the faintest idea but even if they apply a consistent rate of rationing across all their retailers it is going to be more noticeable with the bigger ones.   Similarly because certain very large retailers get more pre-orders than anyone else then it logically fits that smaller retailers might be able to supply in the event of rationing - but they won't know until they get what they have ordered from Hornby.

 

If Hornby are operating a policy of cutting back orders disproportionately for certain retailers they could potentially be accused, rightly or wrongly, of operating a restrictive trade practice so I seriously wonder if they would do that?

 

As for other manufacturers and commissioners I have never suffered with any of them the sort of rationing and major delay to a pre-order which has happened with Hornby.    Hornby do seem to have some particular problems of their own with the long established Year 2 syndrome, growing stocks (by value on the balance sheet) of unsold models, and occasional rationing of new introductions.  Perhaps they have a problem working out exactly what the level of demand will be for any particular model - not that it would be an easy task but with a massive range it is going to be more difficult I would imagine.

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17 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Snip

 

I've been waiting for a Bachmann model for over a year. I think the quantity that manufacturers produce is based on the cost of a production run, market demand is obviously a consideration but I would have thought that is very difficult to predict with absolute certainty.

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I too have had to switch retailer for my Clan order and BR crimson gangwayed ex SR bogie vans. I suspect the problem is due to Hornby announcing models later in the development cycle than other manufacturers. When a model is announced by Hornby  they will already have an agreed production run with the manufacturer. What we are probably seeing now is the effect of Hornby balancing retailer orders against the production level, where models have proved more popular than expected. We're only 5 weeks after the 2021 products announcement and the retail orders probably took until end of a January to get submitted, particularly in these difficult times. What we are probably now seeing is where some product retail orders have exceeded booked production and Hornby have had to adjust down retail orders.

This is unfortunately going to happen where the supplier notifies new products close to production. Where you notify at an earlier part of the development cycle  the production level is yet to be finalised. We may find a similar issue with Bachmann new products in the future, as they are now committed to producing closer to announcement. It will be interesting to see what happens with the newly announced Bachmann Class 20, announced in early Feb, for delivery in Spring/Summer this year.

This doesn't absolve Hornby, as clearly the Clan was going to be popular, as it hasn't been made in many versions and not at all for some 10 years, and they may miss out on a buoyant demand.

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6 hours ago, 45568 said:

Oddly my email stated they CAN supply the W1 late crest, but the 2 Tri-Ang containers I ordered have been cancelled. No mention of the 2 20T Esso tankers on the same pre-order.

 The conflat cancellation is a pest as I do like Hattons trunk system, as far as I know no-one else offers a comparable service. It is ideal for bulking up small item orders and saving on postage.

Cheers from Oz,

Peter C.

I have just checked my preorders, I ordered the Triang containers on 06/01/21. That was quick by my standard, so who got in before me? Hint: we are 8 hours ahead UK time.

Peter C.

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You know this is really not difficult in the 21st century . Hornby agree a production batch with their supplier . They deduct a certain % for rejects then offer them to retailers but they must know what the upper level of orders they can receive is . If they want to sell direct take 20/30/40% whatever off the total to be offered to retailers .

 

But clearly something is going wrong . Hattons could suffer disproportionately because they are the biggest , but it is odd we are not hearing pre orders are not honoured elsewhere . So this initially appears like a Hornby/Hattons issue . Could it be the Hattons site allows orders beyond what they are allocated ie no top level . But really it’s not rocket science  and someone needs to sort this .  Its not doing Hornby or Hattons reputations any good , but of the two of them Id say its Hattons reputation thats getting hammered most. 

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Clan seems to be available at plenty of other retailers.

tbh I think its desirability is over estimated..

Sure theres some who have not, but are the “haves” really going to have more ?

 

There was only 10 of em, if you have 2 already, is 4 not disproportionate ?

 

I recently downsized to 3 Brittanias, as i’m realistically never going to run more than that.. with 2 clans already, 3 would be overkill.

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Has the problem actually been fixed?

Some Hornby items are still available for pre-order, so I looked at one, R30005 Terrier "Bodiam". The quantity is limited to 24, even if you try to put more in the basket.

Hopefully this indicates that it has been fixed.

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39 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Clan seems to be available at plenty of other retailers.

tbh I think its desirability is over estimated..

Sure theres some who have not, but are the “haves” really going to have more ?

 

There was only 10 of em, if you have 2 already, is 4 not disproportionate ?

 

I recently downsized to 3 Brittanias, as i’m realistically never going to run more than that.. with 2 clans already, 3 would be overkill.

 

Yes its that balance in terms of how many do you actually need? I personally hate the thought of having locos sat in boxes not being used, I'd rather sell them on for somebody else to enjoy. I've sold four locos this year and purchased none, mainly because the one's I want are not in stock. At this rate I won't have anything to run!

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1 hour ago, Legend said:

You know this is really not difficult in the 21st century . Hornby agree a production batch with their supplier . They deduct a certain % for rejects then offer them to retailers but they must know what the upper level of orders they can receive is . If they want to sell direct take 20/30/40% whatever off the total to be offered to retailers .

 

But clearly something is going wrong . Hattons could suffer disproportionately because they are the biggest , but it is odd we are not hearing pre orders are not honoured elsewhere . So this initially appears like a Hornby/Hattons issue . Could it be the Hattons site allows orders beyond what they are allocated ie no top level . But really it’s not rocket science  and someone needs to sort this .  Its not doing Hornby or Hattons reputations any good , but of the two of them Id say its Hattons reputation thats getting hammered most. 

Are we perhaps not hearing because 'it isn't Hattons so why bother to say anything?'  As I've mentioned I've had massively delayeds pre-orders (and been given an. option to cancel in consequence should I wish) but I haven't bothered to say anything and certainly wouldn't name the retailer because the problem was 100% with Hornby by noting honuring an order the retailer had placed with them.

 

Hattons site might well allow excess orders to be placed and if that allegation has any foundation it's up to Hattons to sort it.  But on the same basis it's up to Hornby to put its house in order, however difficult that might be.  Like you I expect Hornby are placing their orders with the factories early on so they too might well be over-selling some models but at the same time they're clearly over producing in the case of some models.  I don't doubt it's a difficult balancing act but clearly it really needs to be sorted one way or another.  And, as I said above,  i've had no experience at all of it happening with other manufacturers  even with models which were extremely popular and which vanished off the retailers' shelves very quickly.

 

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Just to join the chorus ‘for the record’ (and to (very rarely) voice my frustration publicly, in the hope it registers with both Hattons and Hornby a little more than an a poor work experience student having to front pointless apologies)... in last 2 days I’ve received order cancellations for (deep breath...) Thane of Fife, Lord President, 2 Blue Pullman power cars, 4 of the Blue Pullman coaches and the Pride Pendolino set of 4 . Most of which I ordered literally on the day they were announced, so they’re clearly not honouring pre-orders on a ‘first come first served’ basis - and it’s this that I find somewhat unforgivable, in customer service terms.

 

I do appreciate there can be supply challenges, and I’ve always been pretty forgiving with retailers as I know it’s not necessarily their fault. But the scale of this does take the biscuit on any measure - there’s literally no point in pre-ordering with them at all if they just cancel at the point of delivery, and / or completely ignore early commitments. What’s the point in ordering 3 years / 3 months / 3 weeks beforehand, if they prioritise whoever happens to be around on the day of arrival?  

 

To rub in the salt, I did ring them yesterday (when the first email came through it didn’t mention cancellation - just that my order was being ‘reviewed’, as it turned out they were trying to charge my card to an old address, easily and immediately resolved). They cheerfully confirmed the card payment had gone through, and that ‘Thane of Fife’ was being packed and sent out. This morning I looked forward to receive a “Thane”, and instead received yet another cancellation email. AFTER they had allocated and processed it! They could at least have offered an alternative model out of the other A2 versions - some of which they still had ‘on sale’ to new customers today (bit of a cheeky little slap in the face, I’m sure intended very friendly...).

 

So, I’ve placed my order with TMC instead (albeit for Cock o the North, since Thane of Fife now seems sold out everywhere; if only I’d ordered early...).

 

Just to clarify, Hornby appear equally on the hook here - given recent pattern of releasing multiple duplicate models (once is a coincidence, four times is systematic), it looks strongly like they’re pursuing a strategy of ‘aggressive monopoly’ and unreliable supply, trying to put retailers out of business so people switch to ordering direct from them. I’m sure some may argue “all’s fair in love and war”, but in such a niche hobby, and with so many retailers having already gone out of business over the last decade, dishonourable aggressions seem undeserving of custom, for my money at least. So I’ll probably switch pre-orders away from Hornby too off the back of this (from the experiences in this thread, it sounds like Hornby are no more reliable at honouring direct orders themselves - which I find absolutely astonishing!).

 

Thankyou for some of the suggestions above around more reliable retailers: about 3 years worth of pre-orders should be switching to them tomorrow, unless Hattons and Hornby have engaged the services of top level diplomats by the morning! 

 

Good luck to others in the same position. 

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1 hour ago, craigowen1976 said:

Just to join the chorus ‘for the record’ (and to (very rarely) voice my frustration publicly, in the hope it registers with both Hattons and Hornby a little more than an a poor work experience student having to front pointless apologies)... in last 2 days I’ve received order cancellations for (deep breath...) Thane of Fife, Lord President, 2 Blue Pullman power cars, 4 of the Blue Pullman coaches and the Pride Pendolino set of 4 . Most of which I ordered literally on the day they were announced, so they’re clearly not honouring pre-orders on a ‘first come first served’ basis - and it’s this that I find somewhat unforgivable, in customer service terms.

 

I do appreciate there can be supply challenges, and I’ve always been pretty forgiving with retailers as I know it’s not necessarily their fault. But the scale of this does take the biscuit on any measure - there’s literally no point in pre-ordering with them at all if they just cancel at the point of delivery, and / or completely ignore early commitments. What’s the point in ordering 3 years / 3 months / 3 weeks beforehand, if they prioritise whoever happens to be around on the day of arrival?  

 

To rub in the salt, I did ring them yesterday (when the first email came through it didn’t mention cancellation - just that my order was being ‘reviewed’, as it turned out they were trying to charge my card to an old address, easily and immediately resolved). They cheerfully confirmed the card payment had gone through, and that ‘Thane of Fife’ was being packed and sent out. This morning I looked forward to receive a “Thane”, and instead received yet another cancellation email. AFTER they had allocated and processed it! They could at least have offered an alternative model out of the other A2 versions - some of which they still had ‘on sale’ to new customers today (bit of a cheeky little slap in the face, I’m sure intended very friendly...).

 

So, I’ve placed my order with TMC instead (albeit for Cock o the North, since Thane of Fife now seems sold out everywhere; if only I’d ordered early...).

 

Just to clarify, Hornby appear equally on the hook here - given recent pattern of releasing multiple duplicate models (once is a coincidence, four times is systematic), it looks strongly like they’re pursuing a strategy of ‘aggressive monopoly’ and unreliable supply, trying to put retailers out of business so people switch to ordering direct from them. I’m sure some may argue “all’s fair in love and war”, but in such a niche hobby, and with so many retailers having already gone out of business over the last decade, dishonourable aggressions seem undeserving of custom, for my money at least. So I’ll probably switch pre-orders away from Hornby too off the back of this (from the experiences in this thread, it sounds like Hornby are no more reliable at honouring direct orders themselves - which I find absolutely astonishing!).

 

Thankyou for some of the suggestions above around more reliable retailers: about 3 years worth of pre-orders should be switching to them tomorrow, unless Hattons and Hornby have engaged the services of top level diplomats by the morning! 

 

Good luck to others in the same position. 

 

A very good post, thankyou, I hope those who have power in this hobby take heed of your unpleasant experience.

 

My impression is that Hornby have been pursuing a simple flat policy for all retailers and thus the two largest have fallen out with them, I don't know about the parallel releases, or being 'sold out' on pre-order and then new batches arrive, nor have I experience of recent Hornby direct purchases, their postal charges to NZ are very high,  but it is clear that they want maximum return on investment, quite reasonably in my opinion, thus the new website and direct sales.

 

My heart goes out to you over the cancellations..

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8 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Are we perhaps not hearing because 'it isn't Hattons so why bother to say anything?'  As I've mentioned I've had massively delayeds pre-orders (and been given an. option to cancel in consequence should I wish) but I haven't bothered to say anything and certainly wouldn't name the retailer because the problem was 100% with Hornby by noting honuring an order the retailer had placed with them.

 

Hattons site might well allow excess orders to be placed and if that allegation has any foundation it's up to Hattons to sort it.  But on the same basis it's up to Hornby to put its house in order, however difficult that might be.  Like you I expect Hornby are placing their orders with the factories early on so they too might well be over-selling some models but at the same time they're clearly over producing in the case of some models.  I don't doubt it's a difficult balancing act but clearly it really needs to be sorted one way or another.  And, as I said above,  i've had no experience at all of it happening with other manufacturers  even with models which were extremely popular and which vanished off the retailers' shelves very quickly.

 

 

We don't know what the arrangements were between Hattons and Hornby regarding the acceptance of pre-orders.

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