QuoitsPlayer Posted February 12, 2021 Share Posted February 12, 2021 4 hours ago, APT Fan said: Did you place the order online with Kernow or by phone? Thanks. Online Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Legend Posted February 12, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 12, 2021 3 hours ago, 3rd Rail Exile said: Hornby are probably limited by the length of the production slot(s) they've managed to obtain, and the number of models that can be made in that slot. I'm sure they'd love to not be letting retailers have fewer models than requested (if, indeed this is what is happening), but maybe they just can't get enough made. It's what comes of subcontracting your manufacturing - you lose control of it. The factory has to stop at the end of the slot, and change to making something else for a different customer... Yeah but you also know how much you’ve subcontracted for . As I keep on saying this is basic stuff it’s not rocket science . Somewhere between Hornby and Hattons the customer is being badly let down 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
APT Fan Posted February 12, 2021 Share Posted February 12, 2021 13 minutes ago, QuoitsPlayer said: Online Okay, doesn't that mean you have to pay up front with them? Whereas if you phone you can just reserve it with card details rather than it being debited at the online checkout? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
APOLLO Posted February 12, 2021 Share Posted February 12, 2021 I bet Thompson is smiling in his grave thinking "See, I told you my Gresley rebuilds are very popular locomotives" !!!!! Brit15 1 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
truffy Posted February 12, 2021 Share Posted February 12, 2021 18 minutes ago, APT Fan said: Okay, doesn't that mean you have to pay up front with them? Whereas if you phone you can just reserve it with card details rather than it being debited at the online checkout? Yes...and no. From their FAQ: Quote I recently placed an order online but have noticed that my payment has been refunded. Why is this? Orders placed online for 'out of stock' or new items yet to be released, which cannot be guaranteed to be supplied within 28 days, are refunded and the items placed on back order. You will be charged again for the items once they are either imminent or in stock. If you wish to place a pre order for 'out of stock' or new items yet to be released without your card being charged and refunded then please ring us on 01209 714099 to place an order then we will not charge until ready to despatch, but you still need to provide your payment details. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
APT Fan Posted February 12, 2021 Share Posted February 12, 2021 15 minutes ago, truffy said: Yes...and no. From their FAQ: Aye, I read that about the online pre-order and it kind of put me off, I hesitated, when I did get around to phoning them a couple of days later for a Bachmann model they'd sold out on pre-order. It was a strange one as I'd already been waiting a year so didn't feel like there was any urgency, they did however indicate that there wasn't many available, the figure of 20 rings a bell. Missing out did save me nearly £250 though! From my past experiences, they seem to know what they are doing and I like dealing them when all is said and done. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmcg Posted February 12, 2021 Share Posted February 12, 2021 7 hours ago, Legend said: What would be annoying , though, is if retailers allocations are cut back , but that you can still order direct from Hornby . This is not the much hyped "we want to support our retailers unlike previous management " message the Lyndon Davies stated when they took over management . So that's not helping hobby ,and of course from our point of view you pay full MRP at Hornby direct , but get discount at most retailers . I think by default Hornby will get pre-orders , rather than general Hornby retailers, unless confidence can be restored in the latter . Something is happening with batch numbers and availability these days which makes pre-ordering a bit risky, if money is paid at least. As I understand it Hattons didn't require payment of any money at all to pre-order? I still remember the 34001 Wc Exeter shortfall... I found two or three and then watched Ebay prices go up. A similar thing happened with the diecast Atholl, I see it's still up over UKP500 on Ebay... but I was the fool with that one, I bought one at Eay prices in a fit of irrational avarice... Now I wait until there is news of the product being 'imminent' before doing anything. I'd consider a refundable deposit or payment for a must have model pre-order. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
truffy Posted February 12, 2021 Share Posted February 12, 2021 (edited) 35 minutes ago, APT Fan said: Aye, I read that about the online pre-order and it kind of put me off... From my past experiences, they seem to know what they are doing and I like dealing them when all is said and done. I've preordered several items, paid, and then immediately been refunded. TBH I'm not sure why they do that, I'd rather they just kept the money or not take it in the first place, it'd be easier. 35 minutes ago, APT Fan said: From my past experiences, they seem to know what they are doing and I like dealing them when all is said and done. +1 (although the website could do with an overhaul) Edited February 12, 2021 by truffy unscrambling Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmcg Posted February 12, 2021 Share Posted February 12, 2021 Seems to me that if you want to pre-order a Hornby item with no money up front and minimal risk you have to buy off Hornby directly. You'll pay more eventually than many retailers who will offer less certainty with pre-orders but often lower prices. Those retailers will generally require a deposit or full refundable payment on pre-orders, you takes your choice. That's how I see it. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 3rd Rail Exile Posted February 12, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 12, 2021 2 hours ago, Legend said: Yeah but you also know how much you’ve subcontracted for . As I keep on saying this is basic stuff it’s not rocket science . Somewhere between Hornby and Hattons the customer is being badly let down True, but what if they don't manage to make the subcontracted number in the time allowed? At that point you end up with less than expected to go round... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
APT Fan Posted February 12, 2021 Share Posted February 12, 2021 43 minutes ago, truffy said: I've preordered several items, paid, and then immediately been refunded. TBH I'm not sure why they do that, I'd rather they just kept the money or not take it in the first place, it'd be easier. +1 (although the website could do with an overhaul) I'd level that criticism at nearly all of the retailers websites and Hornby too! I've yet to find a decent one, a common theme is the poor search engines. Arguably one of the better one's in Hatton's is still not structured very, indicated by the fact that it takes forever to do an search and then still returns many spurious results. Having said that, this forum isn't much better, its a nightmare trying to find a specific thread, a waste of time really. Ironically Kernow has one of the better search engines, for example searching for 'class 37' returns mainly class 37 products, also class 370 which is fine and to be expected. Good luck with that search criteria on many other sites. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ighten Posted February 13, 2021 Share Posted February 13, 2021 Just on a side note is Hornbys web site doing a moment of madness again - I cant get it to show any items in the catalogue at all pre - or now.... Or is it me and some cookies Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruffnut Thorston Posted February 13, 2021 Share Posted February 13, 2021 3 hours ago, truffy said: I've preordered several items, paid, and then immediately been refunded. TBH I'm not sure why they do that, I'd rather they just kept the money or not take it in the first place, it'd be easier. +1 (although the website could do with an overhaul) I think it’s basically the way online shopping sites are constructed. Gaugemaster is another that requires payment, but it is then refunded. The order remains however. After all, computer systems are not hyper intelligent.... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
9402 Fredrick Posted February 13, 2021 Share Posted February 13, 2021 (edited) (Deleted reply). Edited February 13, 2021 by 9402 Fredrick Deleting reply. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWR-fan Posted February 13, 2021 Share Posted February 13, 2021 Common sense would dictate that when there is a new release announced a retailer will be told how many items the store will have for pre-order. If other stores do not fulfill their quota then Hornby would most likely offer the unordered items to those retailers able to sell the item when available. Recently, even though supposedly sold out one of the major retailers offered pre-ordering of a limited number on the hush-hush locomotive with the nameplates. I was surprised as I believed the production was sold out. Pre-ordering with me always makes me cringe as the system is open to manipulation. I recall several years ago a particular production run of a West Country loco that had a production run of around 200 items. The loco was heavily pre-ordered and yet production for some reason was heavily curtailed. What really peeved me was an employee of one store bragging how he had ordered and received six of the locomotives with the intent of making a fortune on an online auction site. I have never pre-ordered previously but did make an exception for the Hattons Genesis GWR coaches. If I receive them then I will be happy, if not, then I will not be bad mouthing Hattons and saying I will never shop there again. Stores (and manufacturers) usually, unless a specific store commission from a major manufacturer, will never reveal production numbers. This is understandable as customer uncertainty will persuade him to either pre-order or purchase immediately on release at the quoted retail price. If demand is not met and the production quantity high then buyers will play the waiting game and wait for a firesale to purchase the item. Hattons was severely chastised over the Stephenson Rocket release for being unable to fulfill all pre-orders. We do not know whether the fault lay with the store for accepting more pre-orders than able to fulfill or if Hornby itself was to blame by not being able to supply the quota promised to the store. I do not believe that the store would grossly overorder if unable to supply. They may have allowed pre-orders for a limited number in excess of actual promised supply as some who pre-order either change their minds or have duplicate pre-orders with other stores. Without the specific details one really cannot lay specific blame on a store for not being able to fulfill a pre-order. It is easy to take a gut reaction and blame the store but one should consider that perhaps there are mitigating factors such as the manufacturer not supplying the store's quota. It would be nice if the store was able to explain why a pre-order has been cancelled but perhaps due contractual conditions they are not able to. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
9402 Fredrick Posted February 13, 2021 Share Posted February 13, 2021 2 hours ago, GWR-fan said: Common sense would dictate that when there is a new release announced a retailer will be told how many items the store will have for pre-order. If other stores do not fulfill their quota then Hornby would most likely offer the unordered items to those retailers able to sell the item when available. Recently, even though supposedly sold out one of the major retailers offered pre-ordering of a limited number on the hush-hush locomotive with the nameplates. I was surprised as I believed the production was sold out. Pre-ordering with me always makes me cringe as the system is open to manipulation. I recall several years ago a particular production run of a West Country loco that had a production run of around 200 items. The loco was heavily pre-ordered and yet production for some reason was heavily curtailed. What really peeved me was an employee of one store bragging how he had ordered and received six of the locomotives with the intent of making a fortune on an online auction site. I have never pre-ordered previously but did make an exception for the Hattons Genesis GWR coaches. If I receive them then I will be happy, if not, then I will not be bad mouthing Hattons and saying I will never shop there again. Stores (and manufacturers) usually, unless a specific store commission from a major manufacturer, will never reveal production numbers. This is understandable as customer uncertainty will persuade him to either pre-order or purchase immediately on release at the quoted retail price. If demand is not met and the production quantity high then buyers will play the waiting game and wait for a firesale to purchase the item. Hattons was severely chastised over the Stephenson Rocket release for being unable to fulfill all pre-orders. We do not know whether the fault lay with the store for accepting more pre-orders than able to fulfill or if Hornby itself was to blame by not being able to supply the quota promised to the store. I do not believe that the store would grossly overorder if unable to supply. They may have allowed pre-orders for a limited number in excess of actual promised supply as some who pre-order either change their minds or have duplicate pre-orders with other stores. Without the specific details one really cannot lay specific blame on a store for not being able to fulfill a pre-order. It is easy to take a gut reaction and blame the store but one should consider that perhaps there are mitigating factors such as the manufacturer not supplying the store's quota. It would be nice if the store was able to explain why a pre-order has been cancelled but perhaps due contractual conditions they are not able to. If them not being allowed to say why is contract related, then Hornby must be worried about having similar to the 34001 Exter situation happening, but they need more transparancy as this thing could turn new members of the railway modelling community off, which is an issue already. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Hilux5972 Posted February 13, 2021 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted February 13, 2021 8 hours ago, robmcg said: Seems to me that if you want to pre-order a Hornby item with no money up front and minimal risk you have to buy off Hornby directly. The problem with that is their postage costs, which I might add have recently gone up it seems. I checked out of interest, and to get a coach direct from Hornby shipped down to us in NZ, there is only 1 option and that is DPD at £50. £50!!!! The bloody coach was less than that! If they want direct purchases then I should think they need to look at their costs. 1 3 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roddy Angus Posted February 13, 2021 Share Posted February 13, 2021 10 hours ago, Legend said: Yeah but you also know how much you’ve subcontracted for . Hornby may well know how many models they have sub-contracted for but until they have received order requests from all retailers, including their own on-line shop they will not know whether they can supply the requested amount. Would it be fair if one retailer ordered, and got, the full production run? I presume some sort of algorithm is used, probably based on past sales with a minimum number for smaller retailers, to decide on who gets what. If a retailer accepts orders based on their presumption of what they think they will get, then they may get too many pre-orders and may have to knock some back. The only way to stop this situation would be for Hornby to over produce every product so that all orders can be fulfilled or retailers could be "banned" from taking pre-orders on new models for 2 months by which time Hornby will have been able to work out how many each retailer can have. Alternatively, the order book has to be opened very early in the process and we have to accept that we have to wait a few years for our models to appear leading to the Bachmann problem, with models cancelled before production due to lack of advance orders. It doesn't just affect Hornby my local shop did not get any of some of the EFE wagons from the first announcement, they only received a couple of examples of one of the eight available (they have been told that another run will be made, but I am not holding my breath). Other shops still have them available to order. I want to order from my local shop as lockdown has demonstrated how much I would miss them if all their customers moved to online ordering and they had to close. I know they could grow their mail order business but that might force a move to out of town premises with reduced opportunity for personal contact, ala Hattons. Hornby will have to book production runs before a model is in the catalogue without any indication from retailers of how many they want, the 4 and 6 wheelers are a good example. If, as a whole, retailers over-order then some, if not all, orders will have to be reduced. If one retailer monopolises the mail order pre-order market, then obviously they are most likely to be "noticed" having to reduce orders. Perhaps the issue is Hattons domination of the mail order market? Not a bad thing from Hattons viewpoint but it could lead to a monopoly by default. By the way, I am a Hattons customer for items which I can't get locally (and of other online retailers as well). Regards Roddy 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold NoggintheNog Posted February 13, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 13, 2021 US Manufacturers tend to have a preorder period for new models, then do a production run to cover the preorders + some set amount. Which seems an entirely more sensible approach. 2 11 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted February 13, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 13, 2021 12 hours ago, robmcg said: Seems to me that if you want to pre-order a Hornby item with no money up front and minimal risk you have to buy off Hornby directly. You'll pay more eventually than many retailers who will offer less certainty with pre-orders but often lower prices. Those retailers will generally require a deposit or full refundable payment on pre-orders, you takes your choice. That's how I see it. Not at all like that Rob. I wouldn't buy direct from Hornby if they were the last purveyors of their own brand models on the planet - that approach by them hits the retail trade which they have said they do not want to do (because that's where the previous management made fools of themselves). I have two 'local' model shops - the nearest is an hour's drive away but I have been dealing with them as a customer since they opened and I will continue to support them with pre-orders and purchases because of the range they offer and which Hornby simply could not compete with. The other one is several counties away but I still consider them 'local' as I know several of the staff very well, visit the shop occasionally, and get excellent postal service from them. I am thus keen to ensure that both remain in business - so they get my business as a contribution to that aim. Neither of them charge for pre-orders but I can pre-pay either by way of a deposit or more if I wish. One of them I know all too well has been 'hit' by Hornby rationing in the past; I don't know the situation with the other in that respect. One of them sells online and the other does mail order for those who ask but in neither case is it necessary to pay a deposit on pre-orders. In fact I take a rather old-fashioned view in respect of pre-ordering because I regard it as a 'contract' to purchase between myself and the retailer and if they can't trust me or I can't trust them it would be a sorry world and no need for money to change hands. Finally there is an awful lot which we don't know about the way 'manufacturers' go round matching their orders from the factory with their orders from retailers and direct customers. Some no doubt fairly sensibly put the cart in front of the horse and base their factory orders on what they know they will sell plus an allowance for returns etc and whatever they are prepared to take into stock as a cost on their balance sheet. Hornby do not appear to work in that way and the fact that they reduce retailer allocations instead of supplying what has been ordered appears to confirm that situation. However the problem they face is twofold. Firstly they need some pretty sophisticated market intelligence to get their ordering quantities right to meet the demand which subsequently arises because if they don't the accountants will get concerned about the financial risks the company is being exposed to. And secondly if they produce an annual catalogue with delivery dates specified even as broadly as whichever quarter of the year they will have had no choice but to arrange production dates to match those delivery dates - and to have done that before their catalogue goes to press and they announce their upcoming year's models. Easy to do when the factory was just behind the front office and you could run off a few hundred more models if orders were in excess of expectation o manufactire was based on orders. Not at all easy if 'your' factory is a couple of continents away, works for various customers and allocates its capacity accordingly, and only produces runs in batches of 500 (or perhaps 250 if it is a simple livery variant within a larger overall order). So maybe part of Hornby's problem is working to its somewhat outmoded annual announcement method and all that has to go with it? 1 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmcg Posted February 13, 2021 Share Posted February 13, 2021 Interesting reply Mike, possibly you underestimate the number of people who pre-order with little intention of actually buying, but just to keep their buying options open. Secondly many buyers do not have trusted friend as part of the pre-order system. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold adb968008 Posted February 14, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 14, 2021 (edited) 14 hours ago, NoggintheNog said: US Manufacturers tend to have a preorder period for new models, then do a production run to cover the preorders + some set amount. Which seems an entirely more sensible approach. Sensible for who ? The manufacturer, the shop or the customer ? Many retailers wont know how many they can sell, until its sold, and that requires a customer to walk through the door, see it, and buy it, or an educated guess at that. If Hornby was a 100% website operation they could do that approach, however the UK does have a larger network of smaller retailers, with limited online presence, but high footfall... by nature of being on this forum, we are also on the web and can be easily misguided into thinking there is only a dozen retailers in the UK, based on website popularity..but those dozen only represent a % of the market.. the retail network represents the other %, which we only here about in the periphery online. A good case in point, is Heljan attempting to tap that market via EFE rail for instance, Dapol also uses Gaugemaster to further that reach. Hornby is lucky to be dominant enough to have that reach, they are protecting it. Edited February 14, 2021 by adb968008 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdvle Posted February 14, 2021 Share Posted February 14, 2021 6 minutes ago, adb968008 said: Sensible for who ? The manufacturer, the shop or the customer ? All, because they all know what they will have to sell. It works for the manufacturer, as they know how many to make. It works for the shop, because they know if they order X they will get X. And it works for the customer, because they know if it is available to buy or not - none of this it's available until someone suddenly finds out they have Y orders and only have some number less than Y to ship to retailers. As for waiting until it arrives, most shops know what they can sell and order enough for pre-orders plus a margin. The only ones this doesn't work for are those who want to wait until is available, and when the customer walks through the door (physical or virtual) order it on demand. 6 minutes ago, adb968008 said: Many retailers wont know how many they can sell, until its sold, and that requires a customer to walk through the door, see it, and buy it. Any retailer will have an idea of what their client base buys when they walk through the door, and will order what they view as a reasonable amount of shelf stock to satisfy that walk-in customer base. Does it work all the time? No, but then again neither does the current system. 16 hours ago, Roddy Angus said: Alternatively, the order book has to be opened very early in the process and we have to accept that we have to wait a few years for our models to appear leading to the Bachmann problem, with models cancelled before production due to lack of advance orders. In the US, Athearn announces new items every month (mostly re-runs, 3 or 4 new tool a year), and have 6 to 10 items announced. The pre-order deadline is the last Friday in the month, and the models arrive around 10 to 11 months later. There is no reason to have to wait years - that is a problem Bachmann is having and has nothing to do with a pre-order system. As for models cancelled due to a lack of sufficient orders - that is good. If there aren't enough orders for an item why make it and have it sit on a warehouse shelf tying up capital? 2 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWR-fan Posted February 14, 2021 Share Posted February 14, 2021 While I live in a very large city in Australia, the nearest "hobby" store to me is over one hour's drive cross the city through peak traffic. When I get there I find no Hornby or Bachmann "OO" items and quite often am unable to source polystyrene cement and even matt black tins of paint. That store is regarded as being one of the biggest in Australia. Two stores that I know that stock a reasonable level of Hornby products, one in the city centre and one on the north shore, both charge full "local" retail price. There are other suppliers of Hornby items, however, as I do not reside in those cities then online ordering is my only option. Due the high prices I do not consider these an option. For me the only satisfactory alternative is one of the larger UK box shifters. Many UK stores either do not ship internationally or do not offer VAT exemption and so I do not use their services. Two main alternatives that do offer shipping and VAT exemption I avoid due in my opinion less than satisfactory service. Another large store I no longer offer my patronage I have abandoned due a recent gross overcharge on postage costs when the order could have been sent in two packages for one-third the cost of a single package. This leaves me with in my opinion just one store that I have purchased from for many years with just a few instances of less than desirable service which the store was more than obliging to take responsibility for and correct the situation. If I was to pre-order then this is the store I would use, even if I knew that I would receive an unable to supply email. The store has more than earned my respect and a recent look at my profile on the store's site shows several hundred transactions with the store. They have earned their reputation for service and while some offer knee jerk reactions to a pre-order being denied, I will stand by the store for service and reputation. Those UK residents who are spoilt for choice can go elsewhere, however, for me I will go without if the store is unable to supply. The need to have the very latest release from the manufacturers, to me, is like a drug fuelling an addiction. As soon as an item is announced then a pre-order is deemed necessary. The refusal email puts them in a state of withdrawal. I understand that one is disappointed upon missing out on a new release, however, how many in true honesty is able to say that they really have more than enough locomotives and rolling stock to use in a lifetime and yet cannot refuse the urge to get on the gravy train of the latest release? 2 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWR 802006 Posted February 14, 2021 Share Posted February 14, 2021 I had a email from Hattons as well which they couldn't full fil my Midland Pullman HST order but I still have a order for the 88DS model I ordered from them Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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