Preorder email

[LimboBrit]

29 minutes ago, 3rd Rail Exile said:

Presumably, booked slots to manufacture other things got swapped to allow 66s to be made.  Hornby must have (correctly IMHO) made a judgement call that whatever was delayed as a consequence wasn't so time sensitive.  There are a number of models (already delayed due to other issues) that seem to be put back and back, but I doubt Hornby would ever confirm exactly what was delayed as a result of the swap.  

If that’s what happened It also implies that the supply chain and lead times support such a move

[3rd Rail Exile]

1 minute ago, LimboBrit said:

If that’s what happened It also implies that the supply chain and lead times support such a move

 Or were somehow made to do so on this one unique occasion...  We'll never know the details.  

[LaGrange]

On 10/02/2021 at 14:39, Hilux5972 said:

Just received an email from Hattons saying they are unable to fulfill my preorder of Hornbys Grey Streamlined W1 and one of the Clans. Anyone else had a similar email?

 

Buy it somewhere else - The End 

......8 pages of waffle......

Edited February 18, 2021 by LaGrange

[HillsideDepot]

The talk of Hornby's processes for ordering from it's suppliers and their ability or otherwise to supply reminded me of a blog from Palm Equipment who make water sports clothing and equipment.
Like Hornby they supply items to the leisure market, and like Hornby have seen a huge rise in demand for their products in the past year. Unlike Hornby the Palm business model is to have the whole range available all of the time, with updates to each individual item every few years, so there is no pre-ordering angst, but there are currently shortages. Palm have their own factory, unlike Hornby, but that doesn't mean that they can up production in an instant, as they explain. 

 

Quote

Hey Palm – where’s all the gear?

As we dip a paddle into the water of 2021 there are lots of questions from Palm customers about how some of the recent events might affect getting hold of Palm gear.

 

Is there any stock?

In 2020 things went bananas. The pandemic encouraged many people to get outdoors, with thousands taking to the water for the first time. Paddling is a great way to explore your local area; it’s great for health and wellbeing and it’s pretty easy to maintain social distancing. With a sudden surge in demand for Palm gear, we pretty much sold out.

Right now we’re working hard to get stuff back on the shelves. We have a constant stream of deliveries due to our warehouses, and quite a few of our shops have got stock, so they can get you the gear. Some stores have shut their doors to the public, but many are still able to operate online or over the phone, so get in touch with them.

 

Can’t you just make more?

We’ve increased our orders for 2021 by about 50%, but unfortunately, it’s not as simple as just turning on the taps. We have to get the materials and parts, which with up to twenty suppliers for just one product can be incredibly complex. We also have to increase our factory workforce – not easy when you’re taking care of your team’s safety during the pandemic and also making sure new staff have the right skills to make good products. 

Most of our Palm gear is made in our own factory in Vietnam, where we are in control of employee welfare and the quality of what gets produced. Despite this, it still takes up to six months from placing an order to having finished products ready to ship to stores. This is pretty standard for manufacturing technical garments, but right now lead times are longer – in some cases closer to nine months, due mostly to a slow down in the supply of component parts and shipping.

 

Why not get it done elsewhere?

Like pretty much all paddling brands we rely on East Asia for our supply. Why? Because that’s where you’ll find the industry experience and technology that are needed for technical products like paddle gear. We try to keep manufacturing in our own facility, alongside a small number of other factories with which we have worked with for many years. We want to make sure we continue to produce good products with consistent quality. No matter where in the world, starting up with another factory would take time, and in the short term we would not get you the gear you want any faster.

 

Why are prices going up?

At the start of the pandemic, businesses worldwide slowed or came to a stop. Materials such as the nylon yarns used to weave fabrics, or Gaia foam to fill PFDs, are in high demand and short supply – and that includes the raw material used to make them. Exchange rates are also fluctuating. The value the US dollar and UK pound have fallen and so costs have risen – anything from 5 to 15% depending on the type of goods. 

Shipping costs are changing too. You may well have seen stories of containers piled up, ships sitting outside ports unable to unload, or goods being taken to other countries and then moved by road, well … Palm products are part of that. The availability of shipping containers has significantly reduced and demand is high. Usually, it takes about six weeks for us to ship a container to Europe, now it could be much longer. The cost of shipping has jumped on average up to five times the rates we would usually expect and with very little notice.  

We do our best to absorb these types of costs, to keep prices stable, but with so many increasing at once, we’ve unfortunately had to pass some of these on and raise our prices. We’re sorry. We aim to continue providing you with quality gear at a great value.

 

Can you wait a while?

We appreciate everyone who’s supported our brand or wanted to get kit from us but haven’t been able to. That pair of gloves or new drysuit you’ve been wanting to order won’t appear in stock overnight, as much as we’d like it to. But fear not, they will get here.

Like so many businesses we are working on the challenges we face, but we count ourselves lucky that we are able to remain open and making the gear that gets everyone out on the water and away from it all for a while.

 

So, not exactly Hornby's situation, but I think that there are similarities between the two, even if one is more open about the situation than the other. It certainly made for interesting reading for me.

[The Stationmaster]

20 hours ago, LimboBrit said:

The key thing is that pre-orders are only a good indication if there is some sort of commitment i.e. down payment. I read here a comment from someone who places multiple pre-orders from different suppliers and then cancels all but one. That sort of behaviour is not going to help.

Not necessarily although this is where the managerial skill comes in at various levels/. the biggest problem is the 'multiple pre-oderer who orders the same thing several times over from different sources but then cancels all except one.  but as i said previously there can g be genuine reasons for pre-orders having to be dropped.  any retailer worth their salt will know their customers and their drop-out rate so they will havea pretty good idea of where to pitch their level of orders from a supplier against their pre-orders from customers plus what they want for stock (again they will know what their stock level needs to be).

 

But overall it has to be a matter of trust - in all directions and in all orders and the fact that a deposit or whatever upfront might be demanded is in my view a sign of considerable distrust.  But again any retailer with a decent IT system or simply by having their eye on the ball will probably identify who the multiple pre-orderers are.   More difficult of course for the really big boys like Hattons and Rails in the retail trade but still I would think possible as they are obviously cleverlyrun businesses to have got to their position of towering over everyone else in UK r-t-r retailing.

 

The disconnect comes where the UK 'manufacturer' has placed its orders with an offshore factory before it takes orders from the retail trade and it will either over order or under order from the factory or get its demand planning just right.  The latter of course is where the 'manufacturer' needs to be acutely aware of and understand the market it is dealing with and that is inevitably likely to be easier said than done.  So instead they simply order on the basis of covering whatever of their costs they wish to cover out of the design and tooling process in their first batch of a particular model and that might perhaps be more a function of the accountants than the marketing people.  Similarly caution might be needed to avoid over-ordering, especially if there is a warehouse stocked up with past unsold stock so  profit will go hand-in-hand with management of cashflow.  In the end what matters to the 'manufacturer' is that they sell everything they have bought from the factory - to them that is more important than a mismatch of undersupply with demand and the potential financial problem that can arise with getting demand wrong.

 

And if you operate, as Hornby still do, the rather outmoded idea of running an annual big bang announcement they have little choice but to place factory orders in advance if they are going to get their new models  to market in the announcement year.  They are now, I think, the only major British 'manufacturer' sticking with that idea in its purest form as others have moved to a different approach even if they still maintain an annual issue of their catalogue.   Rolling announcements and periodic updates clearly offer greater flexibility and potentially far more accurate ways of assessing demand before placing orders with the factory.  And I have a feeling this might be even more critical where multiple livery/minor detail variations are involved because that is where very careful matching to demand can become critical to maximising sales and minimising unsold stock levels.

[The Stationmaster]

20 hours ago, Legend said:

 

Because capacity is constrained . You cant just add another 5000 to the order because time is only allocated for 5000. Increasing the quantity would delay all subsequent orders for other manufacturers . Yes you can order a second batch , but the slot may not be available until next year . 

And the you might all too easily finish up with the dreaded 'Year 2' over-supply - as has all too obviously happened with a number of Hornby models which nowadays decorate warehouse spece but previously were got rid of in the 'fire sales'.

[andyman7]

Phew! 

Reading through this entire thread a few things strike me:

 

1) Surely it is better to be advised by Hattons that they can't supply you now, rather than waiting until the model is out and you can't pre-order elsewhere?

2) I'm not sure I understand the 'I've been bumped by Hattons and I refuse to order from Hornby direct' when there are dozens of other retailers out their with substantial businesses and good track records

3) A relationship with a retailer you can talk to and are loyal to works wonders. I may have been lucky but I have not missed out on any pre-orders to date - but in all cases I ring or call in and check what the status is. They are invariably honest, including advising me when they are not sure they will be able to get suffucient stock. 

[Revolution Mike]

22 hours ago, Legend said:

 

But they aren't a manufacturer are they . That's part of the problem I think . Long inflexible supply chain . But I still think if you contract for 5000 units you will get 5000 units .  There is usually some leeway in there probably built into contract +/- 5% for instance . Or could it be the case that Hornby haven't actually contracted final amounts with manufactures when they announce their program in January . All supposition , but plausible 

Manufacturer vs commissioner is a bit of a moot point - do you class Apple as a manufacturer? I’ve not heard anyone refer to their Foxconn IPhone. The reality is that supply chains are long and complex but that ultimately the company with its name on the box is responsible for the model production as far as the customer/retailer is concerned. 
 

I’ve yet to hear of a factory turning down a larger order...

[Legend]

34 minutes ago, red death said:

Manufacturer vs commissioner is a bit of a moot point - do you class Apple as a manufacturer? I’ve not heard anyone refer to their Foxconn IPhone. The reality is that supply chains are long and complex but that ultimately the company with its name on the box is responsible for the model production as far as the customer/retailer is concerned. 
 

I’ve yet to hear of a factory turning down a larger order...

 

I wouldn't get caught up in the actual descriptions . The key point was that Hornby may not have contracted with its manufacturers at the point of announcement and know how many will actually be available to them.   Actually I've never thought of Apple as a manufacturer more a combination Retail/marketing/ technology company . 

[rembrow]

I wasn't too concerned about the e-mail as I preferred to know early in the year, when other options are available. I was however annoyed with Hattons lack of communication on earlier received products where they failed to advise arrival and shortages. I had the 4/6 wheel coaches in BR Crimson on order and the A2/2 Thane of Fife. When these appeared at other retailers, Hattons were not showing them as having been received, they were listed as 'on order' however they were showing with Hattons produced photographs. I contacted them and was advised that the coaches had arrived and were being processed, however 4 days later and there was no change or update, so I cancelled. I later found out they had not received sufficient for orders received, but didn't let customers know in a timely manner. Similarly I phoned about the A2/2 and was advised that the initial Hornby delivery had sold out and they were waiting another, however couldn't tell.me when, so again I cancelled and bought elsewhere while stock was available.

I had moved my Hornby orders to Hattons last year, when Rails stopped trading with Hornby. I'm now in the process of cancelling my Hornby orders with Hattons, I may lose out, but have gone to Kernow who I've used for many years with complete satisfaction. I didn't have a problem when I bought from a local retailer for 30 years, ordering at the beginning of the year. Unfortunately they closed 3 years ago and I had to go to on-line ordering. 

[truffy]

7 hours ago, rembrow said:

I later found out they had not received sufficient for orders received, but didn't let customers know in a timely manner.

 

As I've mentioned on here before, I had a longstanding order with Hattons for the Bachmann H2 from the time that it was announced. It was only when members posted here later (much later! ) that they'd received theirs, from other retailers, that I found out that that Hattons had had a falling out with Bachmann, and that my order was as viable as John Cleese's parrot. Did Hattons communicate proactively, or at all?

 

That's why Hattons have goe from my favoured retailer to one of last resort. If it weren't for their originals, I wouldn't bother at all.

[Black 5 Bear]

4 minutes ago, cbrooks122000 said:

Just had my cancellation of R3632 Merchant Navy from Hattons. I ordered this over six months ago, so it seems a bit late to be telling me this. Sadly that is all my preorders with Hattons gone, I will not be dealing with them anymore other than my existing non Hornby orders, but once these are done that is it. Generally there are other Dealers that are cheaper and nicer to deal with.

I gave up on Hattons years ago with regard to Hornby pre-orders. As per my latest post in  Hornby M/N, try Derails of Coleford.

Much better customer service and probably more competitive than larger outlets with free postage.

Edited February 25, 2021 by Black 5 Bear

[Ribird]

I've seen few people who ordered the BR Blue Merchant Navy in 2018 have their order cancelled from Hattons. 

[Ruairidh T]

Does seem a bit worrying that they're struggling to fulfil historic pre-orders... it's not giving me much hope for the two Azumas I have on order. 

[Ribird]

1 hour ago, cbrooks122000 said:

Just had a reply from Hattons saying it is all to do with Covid and Hornby didn't know how many orders they were getting. Don't Hornby and co. realise this is not the 1960's, we have automated supply systems that adequately calculate how many items have been ordered, in my case it knew 6 months ago. I find it an insult to my intelligence to think that sort of reply is even acceptable. To miscalculate by one or two, yes perhaps but more no that doesn't happen. The only thing I can do which is what I had started to do, is avoid Hattons like the plague. It would be interesting to know if they ever fulfil any of the preorders.

So what about all of the customers who order the BR Blue Merchant Navy in 2018? Doesn't seem like that excuse works...

[Edge]

Yes, I must confess that I now have a concern about my ‘British Enterprise’ W1 - I’d shift my pre-order if anyone else was still selling them

[truffy]

1 hour ago, cbrooks122000 said:

Hornby no longer has a viable market.

 

How so? If Hornby can shift the units now, and have done in the past, they'll be able to shift them in the future.

 

When/if things normalise, people who (feel that they) have been let down by Hattons will either return to them or continue buying from their new reseller(s) of choice. As has been noted above, there are plenty of resellers that don't appear to have been afflicted in the same way that Hattons has.

[9402 Fredrick]

(Deleted)

Edited February 26, 2021 by 9402 Fredrick
Deleting my reply.

[9402 Fredrick]

16 hours ago, cbrooks122000 said:

 

(Deleting comment.)

Edited February 26, 2021 by 9402 Fredrick
Deleting my reply.

[truffy]

9 hours ago, 9402 Fredrick said:

Can an admin please for the sake of everyone close this dumpsterfire of a thread please?

 

9 hours ago, cbrooks122000 said:

I have never blamed Hattons, I know exactly where the blame lies.

No, you think that you know. But the only ones that do know are H&H. What you have is supposition.

 

6 hours ago, 9402 Fredrick said:

these types of threads are not healthy.

I wondered how long it would take for the self-appointed thread police to drop in. Nobody, and I quite literally mean absolutely nobody, is forcing you to read this. You can quite simply put this thread on ignore, it’s really not that difficult, is it?

[Legend]

I don’t know where the blame lies . I have a suspicion that it might be both companies systems just not working together.  What I have learned , though , is if I  want to preorder a Hornby product , I won’t use Hattons .  This thread is useful as it updates people on latest position, and they can place orders elsewhere, evidence the Merchant Navy postings above .  Like Truffy says , if people don’t want to see this thread why do you have to look ? 

Edited February 26, 2021 by Legend

[APT Fan]

I've found reading this thread really useful and informative and I hope it doesn't get closed. I don't quite understand on what grounds it should be closed anyway? People are entitled to their opinion and I don't think there is anything over the top in here. It would actually concern me more if there was a feeling that reputations should somehow be protected by censoring comments. It wouldn't, reputations are built on customer service history actions, not on a forum.

[APT Fan]

5 hours ago, cbrooks122000 said:

Hornby do an awful lot of things wrong, just try buying that special screw that falls off your valve gear, that is frequently out of stock or the models that Sam seems to get on his reviews. Lets face it the only reason they are still around is that they are Hornby, any company with the loses they had in 2018 would be dead and gone. Their products are good although getting dated, just look at the Dapol Mogul and how easy it is to fit DCC and sound.

As to closing this thread, why? Don't you like learning about the true, obviously you hate Hornby being criticised. I used to work for Ford we were regularly being crucified by watchdog, I even got sent to Italy for two days to fix cars for fear of being crucified by their equivalent. Quite often it was unfair, sometimes not, but generally the company took in on the chin and did something about it. That is life, generally owning up to your faults and fixing them gets you a lot more business.

As for the Hattons/Hornby relationship I think we are beginning to see why Rails didn't want to deal with them anymore. I have dealt with Rails for the best part of 20 years and have never been let done, they obviously value their relationship with the customer. As for Bachmann if I want a spare I mail that wonderful depart they have that goes out of its way to provide with spares, with my Hornby models I resort to EBay to find a scrapper that I can pillage parts from. I leave the community to work out which way is better.

 

I agree with you that companies have to accept criticsm if they want to improve. It is interesting reading about your comparison between Hornby and Bachmann and they do need to consider the big picture, their job doesn't stop at the point of selling the product, it continues into after sales and support. My recent experience with Hornby was with an excellent model but some question marks over the quality control. I like you, am ex-car industry and if you look at that industry now, total quality is a given for all the manufacturers but that wasn't always the case as it was so expensive to implement. Manufacturers had to go that way to compete with the Japanese, suddenly quality, reliability and eventually reputation overtook brand name and brand loyalty in the priority list of customers. All cars are very well made now and nobody is ashamed of driving a Skoda, Nissan or a Kia nowadays. The differentiators for manufacturers in order to attract customers tend to be things like after sales such a warranties etc in addition to expected quality and reliability.

 

Hornby actually need some healthy competition from the likes of Bachmann to help them improve. In fact more competiton would also be beneficial for the customer, it would be nice to be able to obtain some of their product lines from different manufacturers. One thing that occurs to me reading this thread is that Hornby have chosen specific product line for the Pre-orders, knowing there is a market for it and creating a demand. Years ago they probably would have a had a monopoly on that line e.g. Class 47 but now they have competition for that product. If they are not able to deliver on the products unique to them, it provides an opportunity for other manufacturers to move in as the market demand must clearly be there.      

[Markwj]

After the last lot of emails cancelling orders I emailed hattons to check they can supply my Hornby pre- orders and they confirmed they could although to be honest I am not 100% confident. Time will tellI guess.

[Fireline]

4 hours ago, cbrooks122000 said:

Ok what is going on? I got an email from Hattons this morning to tell me that the previous email was a mistake and that my Merchant Navy is still on order. 

You should know. After all, you know exactly where the blame lies....