Preorder email

[ruggedpeak]

Derails' website provides a little more info on the W1 position, some uncertainty but pre-order still available on some versions. Suggests a lack of clarity on availability but this could be for any number of reasons including the container falling off the ship or the factory botching a batch as well as the more prosaic push to direct selling conspiracy theories.

 

A bit of clarity from one of H's would be useful right now. But I remember the issues in getting hold of a DRS SO from the 2020 range after Hattons cancelled my pre-order. In that case I assume huge demand (why 2 BSO's but 1 SO?!) Caused rationing.

 

I wonder here if COVID has driven demand across hobbies and caught out Hornby due to having some very desirable models like the W1.

[mvwilson]

12 hours ago, Jenny Emily said:

I got a cancelation email from Hattons for my W1. 
 

I would love to know if anyone who ordered their W1 from Hattons has not been cancelled on. 
 

There is no point ordering to then be suckered late in the day after other retailers are sold out. Hattons just lost me as a customer unless the item I want is in stock when I order it. 

Response from Hattons yesterday when I asked why my pre order was  cancelled

[Jonboy]

As I mentioned in my earlier post that does chime precisely with the issues I am experiencing at work, across the arts and crafts sector.

The alternative would presumably be for Hornby to produce their full quantity’s of each item,  but reduce the range of items of items being produced and assumes it isn’t partly due to specific components being less available.

 

This would make lots of items much later than announced which leads to howls of protest on places such as RMweb....

 

Given the extreme extra demand caused by so many people being at home (whether furlough or simply time normally spent commuting or on other activities such as pubs, trips out, following a partner around another shoe shop etc ) all previous experience in how to handle such decisions is less valuable and it is very difficult not to upset someone.
 

If we do reach a point of back to domestic business as usual with the vaccines, it will be interesting to see how the shortages across many areas of retail pan out for the next year or two.

[adb968008]

24 minutes ago, Jonboy said:

 

If we do reach a point of back to domestic business as usual with the vaccines, it will be interesting to see how the shortages across many areas of retail pan out for the next year or two.

I dont know about anyone else, but I have plans for this summer, which is slightly less centred around model railways.

 

last years sudden extra disposable income for model railways, due to lack of vacation, weekends, outdoors activities etc saw my model railway budget increase, but I doubt that will be sustained in 2021.

 

If i’m not alone, then reduced production may be a wise thing.

Edited April 10, 2021 by adb968008

[D9001]

I could fully understand this given the mayhem of the last year, it would just be nice if someone, whether Hornby, Hatton's or both, would issue an official explanation. 

[The Stationmaster]

On 09/04/2021 at 12:11, andyman7 said:

This is not about big retailers vs Hornby selling direct. This is about big retailers vs all the other retailers. Reading this thread you might think that Hattons was the only retailer selling Hornby. I do not order direct from Hornby yet manage to obtain all my needs from a couple of retailers who do not seem to have any problems getting stock.

 

In the past, they suffered from the box-shifters undercutting them on popular items but now the balance has shifted to them. They don't charge full RRP either, but trade within Hornby's terms.

 

 

But that is not my past experience.  I have regularly pre-ordered from my most local model shop over a good many years and I know exactly how many of each main loco version they used to order from Hornby although that number was increased if they had additional pre-orders.  The shop knew its customer base, knew who would inevitably pre-order what or come in to buywithout a pre-order, and how many models they wished to take into stock..  

 

But when Hornby applied rationing because overall retailer orders exceeded what Hornby had ordered from the factory that shop had its allocation cut - in one case by 90%.  On one occasion I had to wait 18 months for the shop to have its entire original order filled (yes, I remained loyal and didn't take my order/purchase elsewhere).  So on the basis of evidence alone - albeit past evidence (but that was not an isolated case - rationing often happened) - what you are saying is incorrect.

 

What might well have happened, but we don't know, is the way in which Hornby distribute the agony but what we do know is that Hornby nowadays sell direct and seem at times to have supplies of models which retailers don't have.  As I said previously it comes back to a matter of trust between 'manufacturer'/retailer, & end customer (i.e. us) and if that trust is broken for whatever reason something is wrong and someone might suffer.  In this case we don't know what,  where, or why, it is wrong but clearly there is a problem somewhere.

 

And of course every retailer trades within Hornby's terms - they apply across the board be it a big outlet in volume or a small one.  The most recent (some while back now) change was the ending of the early payment discount but that was available to all retailers although larger concerns more likely had the cash available to take advantage of it.  Hornby have consistently denied for many years that they offered any additional discounts to the box shifters and what little evidence which has crept out seems to confirm that.

[andyman7]

2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

What might well have happened, but we don't know, is the way in which Hornby distribute the agony but what we do know is that Hornby nowadays sell direct and seem at times to have supplies of models which retailers don't have.

They also do not have supplies of items that retailers have - and their website links you to retailers for every item out of stock online. So there is some give and take.

[Jonboy]

Couple of points on @The Stationmaster ‘s post. 
 

Until around three years ago VAT calculations always assumed any settlement discount was being taken up. This lowered the cash paid by the customer and was particularly advantageous to small retailers (or perceived to be) on flat rate VAT schemes who pay a simple percentage of turnover to HMRC rather than producing a full return of sales VAT less purchase VAT. Most accounts software had this built in.
You now have to produce an invoice with VAT on the full amount and issue a credit note only if the discount is taken up. This means a small cash flow benefit is part swallowed by another administrative process.

 

The other interesting thing of the Hornby accounts is up until around 2015 their revenue recognition specifically mentioned it was net of rebates. It has now omitted that but their marketing administration mentions it includes “customer support initiatives”.
Whether these are rebates included under their trade terms and conditions, agreed individually with specific customers or more relevant to their larger high street customers ( who sometimes ask for “marketing contributions” or similar) isn’t disclosed...

 

[D9001]

11 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

But that is not my past experience.  I have regularly pre-ordered from my most local model shop over a good many years and I know exactly how many of each main loco version they used to order from Hornby although that number was increased if they had additional pre-orders.  The shop knew its customer base, knew who would inevitably pre-order what or come in to buywithout a pre-order, and how many models they wished to take into stock..  

 

But when Hornby applied rationing because overall retailer orders exceeded what Hornby had ordered from the factory that shop had its allocation cut - in one case by 90%.  On one occasion I had to wait 18 months for the shop to have its entire original order filled (yes, I remained loyal and didn't take my order/purchase elsewhere).  So on the basis of evidence alone - albeit past evidence (but that was not an isolated case - rationing often happened) - what you are saying is incorrect.

 

What might well have happened, but we don't know, is the way in which Hornby distribute the agony but what we do know is that Hornby nowadays sell direct and seem at times to have supplies of models which retailers don't have.  As I said previously it comes back to a matter of trust between 'manufacturer'/retailer, & end customer (i.e. us) and if that trust is broken for whatever reason something is wrong and someone might suffer.  In this case we don't know what,  where, or why, it is wrong but clearly there is a problem somewhere.

 

And of course every retailer trades within Hornby's terms - they apply across the board be it a big outlet in volume or a small one.  The most recent (some while back now) change was the ending of the early payment discount but that was available to all retailers although larger concerns more likely had the cash available to take advantage of it.  Hornby have consistently denied for many years that they offered any additional discounts to the box shifters and what little evidence which has crept out seems to confirm that.

Had to smile when I read the bit about your local model shop. My local model shops are 60 and 100 miles away respectively

[adb968008]

11 hours ago, D9001 said:

Had to smile when I read the bit about your local model shop. My local model shops are 60 and 100 miles away respectively

I measure my shops in time.

 

My nearest shop is 5 miles away, Zone 4 London.

 

thats 20 mins walk to the station, 3 minutes for the first train, 10 minute connection, 25 mins on the second train, which includes a pause of 10 mins at another station.

Same again in reverse, 2 trains per hour, means a 3 hour round trip.

 

Bus isn't much better.

I could walk it in an hour, but its through a no-go zone and an industrial estate...plus going us all downhill..so you know what the reverse means.

Car.. theres no realistic parking for around 1 mile either direction.

 

I tried twice, first time it was closed, second time I phoned ahead to confirm, and when I arrived.. they closed. I did try a 3rd time, but got an answerphone so havent bothered since.

 

My other two shops are straight 1hr, or 1hr30 drives.. so again 3 hour round trips.

 

My ipad, is around 30 seconds away and gives a lot of options, and I can see what is actually in stock, rather than leaving to chance or part orders.

It would be nice if South London had a shop in a rail connected junction location.

 

 

Edited April 12, 2021 by adb968008

[The Stationmaster]

12 hours ago, D9001 said:

Had to smile when I read the bit about your local model shop. My local model shops are 60 and 100 miles away respectively

As I said, it is my 'most local shop' and it is 33 miles away and about 70 minutes to drive there.  But my other 'local' shop, which I do visit occasionally (pre-Covid), is several counties away so a visit to that one is a day out as it is a more than 5 hours journey in each direction.  I have another one, which I visit occasionally,  which is also about one hour's driving time plus 5-10 minutes walk from the nearest car park.

[Legend]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

I measure my shops in time.

 

My nearest shop is 5 miles away, Zone 4 London.

 

thats 20 mins walk to the station, 3 minutes for the first train, 10 minute connection, 25 mins on the second train, which includes a pause of 10 mins at another station.

Same again in reverse, 2 trains per hour, means a 3 hour round trip.

 

Bus isn't much better.

I could walk it in an hour, but its through a no-go zone and an industrial estate...plus going us all downhill..so you know what the reverse means.

Car.. theres no realistic parking for around 1 mile either direction.

 

I tried twice, first time it was closed, second time I phoned ahead to confirm, and when I arrived.. they closed. I did try a 3rd time, but got an answerphone so havent bothered since.

 

My other two shops are straight 1hr, or 1hr30 drives.. so again 3 hour round trips.

 

My ipad, is around 30 seconds away and gives a lot of options, and I can see what is actually in stock, rather than leaving to chance or part orders.

It would be nice if South London had a shop in a rail connected junction location.

 

 

 

Yup . Exactly same position here .  No model shops open in Scotland yet , of course , but I think my nearest one is Harburns in Edinburgh . Its much easier clicking on ipad .  I used Hattons just last week, for stuff that was in stock and it turned up in 48 hours , I was kept informed via email and could track it . Really excellent service . This just makes it all the more incredible they havent sorted the pre order situation out , my suspicion being that its actually Hornby creating the issues . 

[truffy]

My LMS is a mere 15 minutes walk!

 

However, they don't stock 4mm railway models. For that, my nearest model shop is about 400 miles and 5½ hours away.

[D9001]

I really miss the model shops I used to frequent: Rolling Stock I’m North Shields and C and G in Darlington were truly excellent, I was always in both but both lost owing to their owners passing on. Peter’s in Middlesbrough and Harburn in Edinburgh are now the two closest to me, 160 miles from each other! I guess it’s a microcosm of the national and international trend in retail. 

[Fireline]

11 hours ago, D9001 said:

I really miss the model shops I used to frequent: Rolling Stock I’m North Shields and C and G in Darlington were truly excellent, I was always in both but both lost owing to their owners passing on. Peter’s in Middlesbrough and Harburn in Edinburgh are now the two closest to me, 160 miles from each other! I guess it’s a microcosm of the national and international trend in retail. 

 

Not to mention the national trend in Business Rates....

[GWR-fan]

With Rails no longer able to sell Hornby stock other than stock onhand and Hattons seemingly unable to fulfill many pre-orders,  many lodged around 18 months ago,  is there the possibility that discounting will be discontinued across the hobby in the near future.  With Hornby selling online is there any incentive for other retailers to match the price of what were once the two major box shifters.  At present there are many dealers matching or selling slightly below Rails and Hattons but will they continue to do so in a less competitive market if not forced to?   With less competition to drive down prices then will prices creep back to retail?  In Australia there has never really been discounting in the hobby and a tight rein kept on retail imports,  so Aussie hobbyists have always paid full retail.  Simply put,  when there is little to no competition there is no incentive to discount.

[Michael Hodgson]

What you call discount comes out of the extra cost that has to be added to the wholesale cost charged by manufacturers in order to pay the cost of running shops - cut shops out of the sales process and you reduce total cost.   Whether the manufacturer passes this saving on to customers is a business decision.  In practice that means you will charge what the market will bear, and you discount only those products that don't sell as well as you hoped - ie where you over-produced.

 

It seems likely to me that model shops don't have much of a future - in principle manufacturers ought to be able to handle direct sales more cost-effectively than a third party tying up working capital in stock.  The retail trade does much of its business by mail order already anyway (currently exacerbated of course by covid).   The manufacturers do of course have to become as efficient as the "box shifters" in running that aspect of the business. 

 

 

However retailers have a few things going for them that may make them appear worthwhile to manufacturers

• providing a nationally distributed product showcase rather than just the infrequent shows that manufacturers attend 
• competitive advertising by retailers helps maintain product awareness
• selling batches to retailers helps manufacturers manage their cash flow
• better standard of service than manufacturers can hope to offer

[Steamport Southport]

40 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

What you call discount comes out of the extra cost that has to be added to the wholesale cost charged by manufacturers in order to pay the cost of running shops - cut shops out of the sales process and you reduce total cost.   Whether the manufacturer passes this saving on to customers is a business decision.  In practice that means you will charge what the market will bear, and you discount only those products that don't sell as well as you hoped - ie where you over-produced.

 

It seems likely to me that model shops don't have much of a future - in principle manufacturers ought to be able to handle direct sales more cost-effectively than a third party tying up working capital in stock.  The retail trade does much of its business by mail order already anyway (currently exacerbated of course by covid).   The manufacturers do of course have to become as efficient as the "box shifters" in running that aspect of the business. 

 

 

However retailers have a few things going for them that may make them appear worthwhile to manufacturers

• providing a nationally distributed product showcase rather than just the infrequent shows that manufacturers attend 
• competitive advertising by retailers helps maintain product awareness
• selling batches to retailers helps manufacturers manage their cash flow
• better standard of service than manufacturers can hope to offer

 

I've been hearing that for at least forty years. 

 

First it was mail order that was going to kill them. It didn't. If anything it made them more viable as you could sell stuff to people all around the world rather than just a few people living locally.

 

Retailers that don't adapt will go, most of which are run by people close to retirement age. Are small shops that only sell one or two items really viable? They can't survive by selling a few packets of track pins.

 

Just like all the scaremongering about the Death Of The High Street (usually coming from people who want to buy up the properties on the cheap to sell as prime locations). Notice how many have mysteriously turned into hotels and gyms? Most of those companies are ones that should have went years ago. When was the last time you shopped at BHS or Debenhams? Exactly...

 

The queues outside Primark suggest otherwise. Shopping habits change, but it's not going away anytime soon. People like shopping.

 

 

Jason

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, Michael Hodgson said:

What you call discount comes out of the extra cost that has to be added to the wholesale cost charged by manufacturers in order to pay the cost of running shops - cut shops out of the sales process and you reduce total cost.   Whether the manufacturer passes this saving on to customers is a business decision.  In practice that means you will charge what the market will bear, and you discount only those products that don't sell as well as you hoped - ie where you over-produced.

 

It seems likely to me that model shops don't have much of a future - in principle manufacturers ought to be able to handle direct sales more cost-effectively than a third party tying up working capital in stock.  The retail trade does much of its business by mail order already anyway (currently exacerbated of course by covid).   The manufacturers do of course have to become as efficient as the "box shifters" in running that aspect of the business. 

 

 

However retailers have a few things going for them that may make them appear worthwhile to manufacturers

• providing a nationally distributed product showcase rather than just the infrequent shows that manufacturers attend 
• competitive advertising by retailers helps maintain product awareness
• selling batches to retailers helps manufacturers manage their cash flow
• better standard of service than manufacturers can hope to offer

The problem is that no manufacturer selling direct can compete with a retail shop in terms of range and spread of stock.   I can go to my nearest 'local' model shop and buy paint and liquid adhesives, track from several different manufacturers should I wish, locos, rolling stock, and kits from numerous manufacturers, tools, and raw materials such as metals and plastics.  i can't think offhand of any r-t-r manufacturer who offers a range that broad.  And as - like many - my model railway interest is principally geographically led then no single manufacturer offers anything like the range of models I would need to meet my geographical criterion.

 

Would Horenby sell, say, Bachmann and Dapol locos or stock just to suit me?  Obviously that's the last thing they are likely to do and I certainly wouldn't expect them to.  One reason i support the retail trade is because of what it can offer us, especially those of us lucky to have a good model shop within an hour or two of home.  Yes I would, and do sometimes, make remote purchases from specialist manufacturers and commissioners partly because that is the only way in which they market their products but as far as large manufacturers like Hornby are concerned they can forget direct sales to me - I'll buy from a retailer or not at all.

[D9001]

11 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

I've been hearing that for at least forty years. 

 

First it was mail order that was going to kill them. It didn't. If anything it made them more viable as you could sell stuff to people all around the world rather than just a few people living locally.

 

Retailers that don't adapt will go, most of which are run by people close to retirement age. Are small shops that only sell one or two items really viable? They can't survive by selling a few packets of track pins.

 

Just like all the scaremongering about the Death Of The High Street (usually coming from people who want to buy up the properties on the cheap to sell as prime locations). Notice how many have mysteriously turned into hotels and gyms? Most of those companies are ones that should have went years ago. When was the last time you shopped at BHS or Debenhams? Exactly...

 

The queues outside Primark suggest otherwise. Shopping habits change, but it's not going away anytime soon. People like shopping.

 

 

Jaso

I suggest you read retail guru Bill Grimsey’s three reports on the High Street; with nigh on 50 years in retail starting in a market and finishing as boss of Tesco and also the biggest retailer in the Far East, he knows what he is talking about. High streets will have to change massively, many Town Centre shops will be converted to residential, it’s already happening, many big names will probably go exclusively online, many High Streets already have virtually no shops - see Baldock, Herts. Where there is a very large Tesco in a former lingerie factory at one end of the Street and a small Londis or Mace or something at the other and nothing in between but estate agents, flats, offices and pubs.

 

town centres will need small, independent quality retailers to offer something different and quirky to create USPs to attract people to come, otherwise there will be no need for people to go there.  Sadly, I can’t see model shops being a major force. 

 

Many out of town shopping malls like the Metro Centre in Gateshead are now in trouble because they have lost so many stores, particularly the large ones like Debenham’s (huge in the Metro Centre), BHS, John Lewis, Boots, and The House of Fraser (again, both huge in the Metro Centre)  It was happening before Covid which has made it much worse. 

 

Hey: Remember Beatties? 

Edited April 14, 2021 by D9001

[Michael Hodgson]

25 minutes ago, D9001 said:

I suggest you read retail guru Bill Grimsey’s three reports on the High Street; with nigh on 50 years in retail starting in a market and finishing as boss of Tesco and also the biggest retailer in the Far East, he knows what he is talking about. High streets will have to change massively, many Town Centre shops will be converted to residential, it’s already happening, many big names will probably go exclusively online, many High Streets already have virtually no shops - see Baldock, Herts. Where there is a very large Tesco in a former lingerie factory at one end of the Street and a small Londis or Mace or something at the other and nothing in between but estate agents, flats, offices and pubs.

 

Yes, the police station closed and sold off, and even Lloyds Bank finally closed and has scaffolding up. 

I don't know what they're converting it to, but now you have to go Letchworth for the nearest bank.  I didn't know Tescos used to be a lingerie factory though, but just down the road there's the massive former Spirella corset factory in Letchworth.  I believe they  used to employ fitters 

[GWR-fan]

Many years ago I was in what would have been one of Australia's largest model railway retailers.  At the time what he had in the Hornby range would have fitted in a shopping basket.   A woman was in discussion with the owner asking him for information on what her teenage son would need to get started in the hobby.  The owner's response was basically look around you and you will see barely nothing related to trains as the internet has killed off the hobby.  His store which was once a mecca for model railway items was now floor to ceiling stocked with aircraft,  military,  car and ship model kits.  At the time I could not even purchase styrene glue or a tin of matte black paint.  By then most of the smaller model railway shops in the city were already out of business,  presumably not being able to meet the rent on their premises.  One who does survive charges full retail at his premises and a considerable markup on his eBay account.  People must be desperate because he does manage quite a few sales on eBay,  even at grossly inflated prices. 

 

In largescale the two main retailers moved their premises out into the countryside to a rural town about 100 klms from Sydney where presumably rent is less expensive.  In Melbourne and Perth there are some retailers but like the rest of Australia it is full retail pricing.

[No Decorum]

22 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

What you call discount comes out of the extra cost that has to be added to the wholesale cost charged by manufacturers in order to pay the cost of running shops - cut shops out of the sales process and you reduce total cost.   Whether the manufacturer passes this saving on to customers is a business decision.  In practice that means you will charge what the market will bear, and you discount only those products that don't sell as well as you hoped - ie where you over-produced.

 

It seems likely to me that model shops don't have much of a future - in principle manufacturers ought to be able to handle direct sales more cost-effectively than a third party tying up working capital in stock.  The retail trade does much of its business by mail order already anyway (currently exacerbated of course by covid).   The manufacturers do of course have to become as efficient as the "box shifters" in running that aspect of the business. 

 

 

However retailers have a few things going for them that may make them appear worthwhile to manufacturers

• providing a nationally distributed product showcase rather than just the infrequent shows that manufacturers attend 
• competitive advertising by retailers helps maintain product awareness
• selling batches to retailers helps manufacturers manage their cash flow
• better standard of service than manufacturers can hope to offer

It’s one thing when someone established in the hobby wants to add to existing track, rolling stock, control gear or scenery. It’s quite another for a new entrant. My grandson is starting out & his parents have to be told all the basics. For example, they might not even think to get an uncoupling ramp, let alone know how one works.

[D9001]

18 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Yes, the police station closed and sold off, and even Lloyds Bank finally closed and has scaffolding up. 

I don't know what they're converting it to, but now you have to go Letchworth for the nearest bank.  I didn't know Tescos used to be a lingerie factory though, but just down the road there's the massive former Spirella corset factory in Letchworth.  I believe they  used to employ fitters 

 

.........and quantity surveyors....

[Porcy Mane]

On 13/04/2021 at 22:25, D9001 said:

Peter’s in Middlesbrough and Harburn in Edinburgh

Two within a couple of miles of each other and only half the travelling distance than that to Middlesbrough

 

Errrrrrrr....    https://goo.gl/maps/7dSgQf7ofhQwqhdw8

 

and this place stocks trains but has a very large range of general modelling bits. Also carries a massive range of paints.

 

https://goo.gl/maps/GZEzqdWs31JEusbt8

 

 

Edited April 16, 2021 by Porcy Mane