Preorder email

[Trains4U]

And it continues...

 

[woodenhead]

Crikey, even something as basic as a Limby 121 can't be guaranteed

[Matt C]

Sounds like trouble at 'T' factory. Maybe components are in short supply and numbers being produced drastically cut or delayed/ cancelled ? Something drastic appears to be happening. It's just possible that as with other suppliers who are also retailers, Horby's retail arm is treated as 'Just another customer' and alocated stock from a batch. They may still be takeing pre orders and as yet not cancelled them, but no guarantee that they will actually be able to supply ?  Say a batch of 2000 ordered, 500 alocated to Hornby retail, 1500 to other retailers. They only pre sale 250 of thier supposed 500 but then Hornby are told only 600 will be shipped. They drastically reduce other retailers allocation, but continue to allow pre orders against thier suposed 500 alocation.

 

AN other retailer meanwhile orders 500, Pre sales come in and 500 get allocated so they order another 200. They are then told "your only getting 200 out of your first order so they cancel 300 first orders. But do they cancel the second batch of pr orders ? As they havent yet been told they wont get the second batch ?  Hornby dont sell all thier allocation when it arives so AN other gets told "actually we CAN supply your second order. . So first pre orders miss out while later pre orders get fulfilled. Chaos  I know but its possible that dark doings are actually just shear darn incompetence/ bad comunication between a left and right hand.

 

 All figures fictitious examples and I really feel for retailers trying to deal with all this as well as trading through Covid. Hornby really arent doing themselves ANY favours by not being clear and open about what is going on

Edited April 29, 2021 by Matt C

[Free At Last]

Phew, my head is like a ball of chalk. I'm going to bed.

[Trains4U]

Whenever there have been production or transport delays in the past, we have been told about them.

 

I get the overall impression that whilst they don’t want to lie to us, they also don’t want to tell the truth as it is probably unpalatable.   The shutters have come down.

 

I did recently pose the question to someone from Hornby about order skimming and that there was a perception that orders were being cut to feed their own website and I was told that they really can’t talk about it. A “cannot confirm or deny” response.

 

 

I’d just like to add, in respect to the suppositions above regarding ordering patterns and retailer actions.

we, and a good number of other retailers I’ve spoken with, have done nothing different to previous years. If anything orders have been a little more cautious given the uncertainty of lockdown when orders were placed in January.

[ruggedpeak]

13 hours ago, Trains4U said:

And it continues...

 

yet available to pre-order on the Hornby website

 

[LimboBrit]

9 hours ago, Matt C said:

....................but then Hornby are told only 600 will be shipped

I can not imagine that Hornby would word their contracts with Chinese factories to allow such a thing to happen. If it were true it could jeopardize the financial viability of the project.

[Matt C]

1 hour ago, LimboBrit said:

I can not imagine that Hornby would word their contracts with Chinese factories to allow such a thing to happen. If it were true it could jeopardize the financial viability of the project.

 

There are many and varied reasons for supply chain disruption, the car industry is a multi billion pound business, they probably have some of the best supply contracts written, they are in disarray due to a world shortage of micro chips. I dont think model trains are anywhere near the top of the supply chain when it comes to component shortages, manufacturing slot availability or a miriad other reasons for delay, part delivery or even cancellation of an order. I'm pretty sure most contracts entered into with Manufacturers have get out clauses covering unforseen events ( Covid disruption being but one)

 

I'm not saying this IS the reason, But its possible Hornby are facing a stark choice on what happens to suddenly limited supplies, in an effort to financially survive ?  OR maybe they HAVE decided to play hardball and sell direct. Who knows unless they decide to tell us ?

[LimboBrit]

28 minutes ago, Matt C said:

 

There are many and varied reasons for supply chain disruption, the car industry is a multi billion pound business, they probably have some of the best supply contracts written, they are in disarray due to a world shortage of micro chips. I dont think model trains are anywhere near the top of the supply chain when it comes to component shortages, manufacturing slot availability or a miriad other reasons for delay, part delivery or even cancellation of an order. I'm pretty sure most contracts entered into with Manufacturers have get out clauses covering unforseen events ( Covid disruption being but one)

 

I'm not saying this IS the reason, But its possible Hornby are facing a stark choice on what happens to suddenly limited supplies, in an effort to financially survive ?  OR maybe they HAVE decided to play hardball and sell direct. Who knows unless they decide to tell us ?

I do development work for a supplier in the automotive market. I know all about the semiconductor capacity problems. If these were to lead to a de-commitment from us on volume or delivery schedules you can be sure the customer will demand a pro-active approach in terms of communication and mitigation of damage to their business. The lack of clarity from Hornby suggests either contempt towards retailers or that they simply don't see retailers as customers anymore.

 

If the issue is a (temporary) supply chain problem I would expect Hornby to be more open about it. What would they have to gain by frustrating retailers and their pre-order customers? If they have made a strategic decision to shift to direct sales I can understand that they might not want to be so up-front about it.

[Matt C]

2 hours ago, Trains4U said:

Whenever there have been production or transport delays in the past, we have been told about them.

 

I get the overall impression that whilst they don’t want to lie to us, they also don’t want to tell the truth as it is probably unpalatable.   The shutters have come down.

 

I did recently pose the question to someone from Hornby about order skimming and that there was a perception that orders were being cut to feed their own website and I was told that they really can’t talk about it. A “cannot confirm or deny” response.

 

 

I’d just like to add, in respect to the suppositions above regarding ordering patterns and retailer actions.

we, and a good number of other retailers I’ve spoken with, have done nothing different to previous years. If anything orders have been a little more cautious given the uncertainty of lockdown when orders were placed in January.

 

 

Who would want to be a small independent retailer in these times ? My heart goes out to you guys. Here you have customers ready and willing to place pre orders in good numbers, just when you probably need them most, you think things are maybe improving and look to a brighter future, and then you get the rung pulled from under your feet with no reasonable explanation. The big sheds can probably weather it but how many smaller independent retailers will  be able to ? It must really Gall to see Hornby still accepting pre sales on these reduced or cancelled items,

 

Hornby really arent doing themselves ANY favours.

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, Matt C said:

 

There are many and varied reasons for supply chain disruption, the car industry is a multi billion pound business, they probably have some of the best supply contracts written, they are in disarray due to a world shortage of micro chips. I dont think model trains are anywhere near the top of the supply chain when it comes to component shortages, manufacturing slot availability or a miriad other reasons for delay, part delivery or even cancellation of an order. I'm pretty sure most contracts entered into with Manufacturers have get out clauses covering unforseen events ( Covid disruption being but one)

 

I'm not saying this IS the reason, But its possible Hornby are facing a stark choice on what happens to suddenly limited supplies, in an effort to financially survive ?  OR maybe they HAVE decided to play hardball and sell direct. Who knows unless they decide to tell us ?

Supply chain disruption is one thing - but then should I quote again recent statements from Hornby to its shareholders which effectively say the opposite?  Their supply chain is, they have said, resilient.

 

The emerging pattern here is clearly something different and my sympathy lies 100% with the retailers whose businesses, and possibly livelihoods,  are being damaged by what on the face of it looks like Hornby reverting to old ways which the present management condemned when they took over- as 'Legend' reminded us above.  As far as I'm concerned it's a good job that 2021 is seeing almost everything I want to purchase coming from elsewhere so other manufacturers and various retailers will get my money.  I was, for sentimental reasons, interested in one version of the W1 but if I can't buy it (should I still care to?) from either of my 'local' retailers I certainly won't be buying it, or anything else, direct from Hornby if this is the way they are now treating retailers.  Good job the 'Titfield Thunderbolt' is coming from someone else although I doubt Hornby would have done the Bedford OB to Rapido's standard anyway.

 

but there might be a bright side to this because in the past some items which Hornby couldn't shift through direct sales finished up at what amounted to 'remaindered' prices in a retail outlet seemingly under their control in Swindon.  Maybe this could happen again and - assuming you could get to Swindon - you could take the risk of hanging on and saving some money

[caradoc]

2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

but there might be a bright side to this because in the past some items which Hornby couldn't shift through direct sales finished up at what amounted to 'remaindered' prices in a retail outlet seemingly under their control in Swindon.  Maybe this could happen again and - assuming you could get to Swindon - you could take the risk of hanging on and saving some money

 

Hasn't their retail outlet in Swindon closed (some time ago now) ? 

 

[sidmouth]

On 28/04/2021 at 12:36, Michael Hodgson said:

 

Not before some of them were sent to gaol for non-existent fraud, even more of them lost their livelihoods and reputation, obliged to sell their houses, or had their marriages broken up.  Many more no doubt gave up the fight because they couldn't afford the legal costs.  I haven't heard any mention of the impact on their mental health, but any direct connection might be difficult to prove in court.  It has taken over 20 years for the courts to recognise that the Post Office's computer system was defective.  Justice delayed is justice denied.

 

Perhaps my view of the legal system does appear jaundiced to some.  In 2017 I put a large amount of my pension money into a house, the transaction was arranged through a solicitor and the money went via his clients account to the vendors, but the lawyer did not get my name recorded on the title at the Land Registry.  After a great deal of correspondence, I had to go to the Legal Ombudsman to get this rectified, and it has taken until yesterday before I finally got a copy of the title.

 

one post office did a very nice sideline in 00 gauge models , the sub post master having a layout behind the shop . He was accused of fraud and sadly took his own life 

[sidmouth]

Hornby selling direct to the public take 100% profit . selling through retailers they accept a lower margin (allowing the retailers to take a profit) 

 

Now ..... 

 

If any manufacturer works out based on direct pre-orders a production run that ticks the economics box and maximises their profit, whilst minimising the associated spend through third parties (retailers) then they are in a better place . It is not only railway modelling that I see wanting a big slice of the income to the detriment of others 

[MikeParkin65]

55 minutes ago, sidmouth said:

Hornby selling direct to the public take 100% profit . selling through retailers they accept a lower margin (allowing the retailers to take a profit) 

 

Now ..... 

 

If any manufacturer works out based on direct pre-orders a production run that ticks the economics box and maximises their profit, whilst minimising the associated spend through third parties (retailers) then they are in a better place . It is not only railway modelling that I see wanting a big slice of the income to the detriment of others 

This only works if they sell the same volume of product directly as they would have done through their dealers. If it transpires that this is a deliberate Hornby tactic it would be deeply satisfying to see them stuck with a warehouse full of bright yellow Lima DMU's that they couldnt shift because we, the main buyers, voted with our wallets and chose to remain loyal to our chosen dealers. Plenty of other things we can buy not made by Hornby 

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, sidmouth said:

Hornby selling direct to the public take 100% profit . selling through retailers they accept a lower margin (allowing the retailers to take a profit) 

 

Now ..... 

 

If any manufacturer works out based on direct pre-orders a production run that ticks the economics box and maximises their profit, whilst minimising the associated spend through third parties (retailers) then they are in a better place . It is not only railway modelling that I see wanting a big slice of the income to the detriment of others 

But that is not the same thing as wading in and cancelling - i.e. not supplying - things which I might have pre-ordered from my local retailer.  if they want to mark in their catalogue or website things which are only available direct from them that is one thing but if they imply that things are available from retailers then that should be the case.

Edited April 30, 2021 by The Stationmaster

[woodenhead]

The problem with selling direct on slower selling items is that the stock has to be securely stored - space and it is a liability on their balance sheet as it is unsold stock.  The last owners learnt about the impact of this when they had to fire sale stock they could not shift even undercutting retailers who'd previously bought the same items through wholesale at a higher price so Hornby effectively sold the retailers stock and then undercut them on it's own site.

 

There are plenty of upsides to selling direct, more profit with no wholesale, lower distribution costs and control over the final price.  But if the item doesn't sell it is stuck in their warehouse not the shelves of shops - shops that might not be there in the future if Hornby cut them out now on the best selling items and only wish to let retailer access slower sellers.  Also you have to invest more in marketing and advertising to bring people to your website, no-one is going to stumble across the website and it's items, you're going to have to work harder to induce them in.

[Legend]

But we are a very fickle bunch . You know that faced with getting your W1 or  APT  or not  that people will order direct .  Hornby have calculated that I bet , especially as quantities are likely to be lower . Might as well keep the money to themselves rather than through retailer . Seems like they want the best of both worlds . Have visibility of their range, presumably track and accessories  at retailers  while selling their most wanted items , probably the new ones , direct.  Given no denials , that seems to be their next cunning plan . 
 

The thing is if this is reaching Grest Eastern Models, for what I can’t imagine would be an item flying off the shelves ie a Limby DMU , are any of your Hornby preorders safe at any retailer?   Thing is your retailer may not know but have ordered in good faith .  Shabby practice from Hornby if true . 

Edited April 30, 2021 by Legend

[ruggedpeak]

42 minutes ago, MikeParkin65 said:

This only works if they sell the same volume of product directly as they would have done through their dealers. If it transpires that this is a deliberate Hornby tactic it would be deeply satisfying to see them stuck with a warehouse full of bright yellow Lima DMU's that they couldnt shift because we, the main buyers, voted with our wallets and chose to remain loyal to our chosen dealers. Plenty of other things we can buy not made by Hornby 

Return of the Hornby fire sale........

[The Stationmaster]

9 minutes ago, ruggedpeak said:

Return of the Hornby fire sale........

Analogous perhaps, as far as some retailers are concerned, to what the Japanese call seppuku which liberally translates as 'suicide by disembowelment' (that is not the literal translation).  Wwho is going to bother to order stock from a company which simply cancels your order without any sort of explanation or apology?  And if you do happen to get some of  what you ordered then undercuts you by holding a fire sale of what it couldn't shift any other way?  I wonder if déja vu has gone out of fashion?

[ruggedpeak]

From yesterday's Engine Shed:

 

https://uk.Hornby.com/community/blog-and-news/engine-shed/diesel-deliveries

 

Latest Arrivals:

We have already mentioned the imminent arrival of the new Class 31 and Ruston 48DS models, however May should see the delivery of many more new models including the Mobile device controlled iTraveller set which utilises the recently launched HM6000 controller and app. Another pair of soon to be available additions to the Network Rail family and the GBRf Class 20, 20905.

R1271M – iTraveller 6000 Train Set

R4990 – Network Rail Mk3 DVT  82129 - Era 11

R3915 – RailRoad Network Rail, Class 121, '960015' - Era 10

Edited April 30, 2021 by ruggedpeak

[The Hawk]

The amount of rolling stock I would like to purchase is far in excess of that required for my size of layout. That means I have to carefully pick and choose which items to purchase.

I have a Hornby locomotive on pre-order from a shop (who will be doing lots of extras that Hornby won't do themselves).

 

If Hornby cause my pre-order to be cancelled, then I'll just remove Hornby from my future plans and I'll still have more than enough, from other suppliers, to select from.

Edited April 30, 2021 by The Hawk

[newbryford]

3 hours ago, woodenhead said:

 

 

There are plenty of upsides to selling direct, more profit with no wholesale, lower distribution costs and control over the final price.  But if the item doesn't sell it is stuck in their warehouse not the shelves of shops - shops that might not be there in the future if Hornby cut them out now on the best selling items and only wish to let retailer access slower sellers.  Also you have to invest more in marketing and advertising to bring people to your website, no-one is going to stumble across the website and it's items, you're going to have to work harder to induce them in.

 

Another added cost of direct selling is employing more staff to fulfil the direct sales.

More sending out of lots of small packages, rather than fewer big boxloads to retailers.

 

 

[john new]

3 hours ago, woodenhead said:

There are plenty of upsides to selling direct, more profit with no wholesale, lower distribution costs and control over the final price.  But if the item doesn't sell it is stuck in their warehouse not the shelves of shops - shops that might not be there in the future if Hornby cut them out now on the best selling items and only wish to let retailer access slower sellers.  Also you have to invest more in marketing and advertising to bring people to your website, no-one is going to stumble across the website and it's items, you're going to have to work harder to induce them in.

Whilst your comment on upsides is true, conversely if you are going to offer similar add-on services to match the Value Adding Retailers who fit extras, do weathering etc., then you also need extra specialist staff either on the fixed payroll or brought in as required. All either (a) added overheads if you do it or (b) a poorer service to end users if you don’t.

 

Edited April 30, 2021 by john new

[Michael Hodgson]

5 hours ago, sidmouth said:

 

one post office did a very nice sideline in 00 gauge models , the sub post master having a layout behind the shop . He was accused of fraud and sadly took his own life 

I hadn't heard of that one, but with the number of victims caught up in this outrage I had thought one or two might well have committed suicide as a result.  No amount of compensation can ever put things right for the poor fellow's family.  Given the widespread effect of what has happened, somebody senior in the post office hierarchy is responsible for all this and they ought to be doing time for negligence and/or conspiracy.  I don't see that happening though, at most one or two scapegoats might have to resign or at least lose some perks.