Preorder email

[mvwilson]

9 minutes ago, Hilux5972 said:

Here’s my confirmation email. 

That's interesting because I ordered the same item. I am in Australia.

[Legend]

22 hours ago, atom3624 said:

Has this recent experience changed people's conceptions of preorders and indeed the consideration of making them?

 

It has certainly made me more wary.

 

Al.

 

Not really . I dont like pre orders but sometimes needs must . So ironically up until a few years ago I'd never pre ordered any model railways but now find I've quite a bit on order

 

Rails /Bachmann  Caley 812  . An absolute must

Accurascale  TPE Mk5 set 

Rails/ Bachmann LMS Precursor

Rails/ Bachmann LMS Compound 

 

I had recently pre ordered a Heljan 86 through Rails (although only ordered recently it was before the loco was released , so I think still counts as a pre order). Arrived without issue . Great model .

 

Under consideration is an Accurascale Deltic as I think it will be rather special and there will be a pleasure in owning one . Only thing stopping me is with all the above I will have spent of £1000 on something that is essentially a hobby  and being a tight wad I do find it difficult justifying spending that money on me and on something that only sees occasional use. 

 

The key to them all is that they are reputable companies that don't go cancelling orders on anyone  (at least so far!)  I think I would be very cautious about pre ordering anything Hornby , I have thought about the streamlined P2, but really I don't like rewarding the contempt this company apparently has for fulfilling orders.  If I were to order it would be through a smaller retailer (I live in Glasgow , there isn't a local one), maybe Derails or Arcadia . Certainly not through Hattons .

 

[Hilux5972]

17 minutes ago, mvwilson said:

That's interesting because I ordered the same item. I am in Australia.

Hmm very odd. Perhaps it varies depending on what country. I know I have to pay customs taxes in NZ on anything that is over, I think, $400 so perhaps they account for that on whether to add VAT or not. 

[LimboBrit]

59 minutes ago, mvwilson said:

That's interesting because I ordered the same item. I am in Australia.

The total does not include VAT i.e. Total = Subtotal + Shipping

[mvwilson]

19 minutes ago, LimboBrit said:

The total does not include VAT i.e. Total = Subtotal + Shipping

Then how come one order says No VAT and the total is 216 and my order quotes VAT and the total is 233?

[jivebunny]

24 minutes ago, LimboBrit said:

The total does not include VAT i.e. Total = Subtotal + Shipping

 

Errrr, it clearly states VAT £21.21 

 

 

 

Just checked my Rocket pre-order from February, mine also states no VAT (and free shipping to France which is nice)

 

Edited May 12, 2021 by jivebunny

[Not Captain Kernow]

1 hour ago, mvwilson said:

That's interesting because I ordered the same item. I am in Australia.

This order confirmation just does not add up at all!

 

The actual price of R3840 is £199.99.  The VAT on this is £33.33, so the price before VAT should be £166.66.  No idea where the £21.21 has come from!  Shipping at £50 would make the order total £216.66.  

I would suggest you contact Hornby to ask about how your totals have been calculated?

[LimboBrit]

19 minutes ago, mvwilson said:

Then how come one order says No VAT and the total is 216 and my order quotes VAT and the total is 233?

There is no consistency in the ex VAT subtotal as Not Captain Kernow points out. IMHO Hornby have made a mistake somewhere

[mvwilson]

8 minutes ago, Not Captain Kernow said:

This order confirmation just does not add up at all!

 

The actual price of R3840 is £199.99.  The VAT on this is £33.33, so the price before VAT should be £166.66.  No idea where the £21.21 has come from!  Shipping at £50 would make the order total £216.66.  

I would suggest you contact Hornby to ask about how your totals have been calculated?

I think I have worked it out. The Australian government charges 10% GST  which is there version of VAT. So once the VAT is taken off Hornby add on the GST. £166.66 + £16.66 = £183.33. 

[GWRtrainman]

1 hour ago, Hilux5972 said:

Hmm very odd. Perhaps it varies depending on what country. I know I have to pay customs taxes in NZ on anything that is over, I think, $400 so perhaps they account for that on whether to add VAT or not. 

There is a couple of countries which expect UK companies to add VAT (or local equivalents ) to all orders being shipped to that country.

Australia is one - 10%. So the ex-vat price is £166.66, add shipping then add 10% and the price works out correct. It's not shown very clearly perhaps... but I would assume most Australians who buy on a regular basis know Tax is paid at point of order not at point of import.

NZ does not - so you see £166.66 plus the shipping price only.

 

It's going to become more widespread - all the EU will be like this from July this year. So any UK company shipping into Europe have to change their systems again to charge the Local VAT element and show it on the checkout page.

 

[newbryford]

6 hours ago, GWRtrainman said:

There is a couple of countries which expect UK companies to add VAT (or local equivalents ) to all orders being shipped to that country.

Australia is one - 10%. So the ex-vat price is £166.66, add shipping then add 10% and the price works out correct. It's not shown very clearly perhaps... but I would assume most Australians who buy on a regular basis know Tax is paid at point of order not at point of import.

NZ does not - so you see £166.66 plus the shipping price only.

 

It's going to become more widespread - all the EU will be like this from July this year. So any UK company shipping into Europe have to change their systems again to charge the Local VAT element and show it on the checkout page.

 

 

And then pay the respective country the local VAT collected on that country's behalf......

[Hilux5972]

3 hours ago, newbryford said:

 

And then pay the respective country the local VAT collected on that country's behalf......

Slightly off kilter here but what does VAT mean? Here in New Zealand we have GST, which is Goods and Services Tax, instead of VAT. 

[newbryford]

9 minutes ago, Hilux5972 said:

Slightly off kilter here but what does VAT mean? Here in New Zealand we have GST, which is Goods and Services Tax, instead of VAT. 

 

Value Added Tax. Same thing as GST in Aus, IVA in Spain etc.

 

I'm not an accountant, but I believe a UK company can apply to be GST registered and collect the tax on behalf of the AUS Gov - hence making it "easier" to export to Aus and avoid the various extra charges that Aus Revenue may impose on exports. Then the UK company pays the GST to AUS gov.

 

Anyone that isn't GST registered - and exports to Aus - then puts the onus on the receiver to pay GST if it is pulled by Aus customs and possible extra handling fees.

The same happens when importing into the UK - Parcelforce will add the VAT and a handling fee on top.

Edited May 12, 2021 by newbryford
more added

[john new]

On 07/05/2021 at 23:00, john new said:

I would be happy to pay RRP as I am not sure discounting is necessarily doing society overall, not just our hobby,  any favours due to the negative impact on small retailers but Hornby don't fit extras.

 

What is TMC's reputation like for past cancellations? I have used Kernow in the past (but not on pre-orders) and found them good but they are not listing the particular variant I want to order, whereas TMC are and do DCC fitting.

 

I have a pre-order already with TMC for their G5 but as the model isn't out yet no personal track record with them regarding actual deliveries.

As positive feedback was made regarding TMC my cancelled Hattons order now placed with TMC. I will probably also cancel and now have also swapped my other Hornby pre-order to TMC too. Once bitten twice shy as they say. 

 

I would buy local, and do when possible, but all the model/hobby/art material stockists under an hour's drive from here tend to stock steam outline only.

Edited May 14, 2021 by john new

[Brian Indge]

TMC are very good, have dealt with them for years.

[GWR-fan]

Last night a little birdie landed on my shoulder and had a few words with me.  Earlier this year Hornby introduced a tier system for its dealers ranging from tier 1 getting the most advantageous pick at the pie,  followed by pier 2 and then with pier 3 getting to pick over the scraps left over from the previous two piers.  I do not know the criteria used to select what tier a retailer would be classified as.   The impact of cause is if you were lower on the tier scale then you had your preorders drastically reduced.   With just an email and no other correspondence it would seem that a major distributor of Hornby products was simply advised that your custom is no longer needed.  This then allows the company to further increase online web sales,  restricting the quantity available through the retailer newtwork..  Those who are quick to condemn retailers for failure to honour pre-orders maybe should know who is actually pulling the strings.   One assumes that the retailers are being punished for accepting pre-orders beyond the quantities that they were "entitled" too,  but could it be that those promised  pre-order quantities were severely reduced in a monopolistic move to maximise profits for this year by the company.  Could it also be a possibility that the Hornby Margate management team are not on particularly "friendly" terms with their Chinese manufacturers and that production runs are in the order of barely 500 units and not the expected 1000 - 1500 units?  Word is that the Hush-hush will be in particularly limited supply so any pre-orders may be severely restricted.

 

Could the switch to increase online sales by the company be associated with a certain CEO receiving a GBP 6m bonus should Hornby make a profit for the financial year?   Could the drive to receive a bonus be at the expense of the retailer (and customer) loyalty built up over many years?   Could it be true that warranty returns are refurbished and then returned to retailers as new stock?   

[GWR-fan]

On 13/05/2021 at 07:32, newbryford said:

 

Value Added Tax. Same thing as GST in Aus, IVA in Spain etc.

 

I'm not an accountant, but I believe a UK company can apply to be GST registered and collect the tax on behalf of the AUS Gov - hence making it "easier" to export to Aus and avoid the various extra charges that Aus Revenue may impose on exports. Then the UK company pays the GST to AUS gov.

 

Anyone that isn't GST registered - and exports to Aus - then puts the onus on the receiver to pay GST if it is pulled by Aus customs and possible extra handling fees.

The same happens when importing into the UK - Parcelforce will add the VAT and a handling fee on top.

 

I believe that any retailer who exports in excess of $80,000 Aud in goods to Australia in a financial year is required to charge the GST on sales to Australia.  Oddly,  Hattons have never charged me GST on many,  many sales since the tax was required to be imposed on foreign companies.

[AY Mod]

3 minutes ago, GWR-fan said:

Last night a little birdie landed on my shoulder and had a few words with me.  Earlier this year Hornby introduced a tier system for its dealers ranging from tier 1 getting the most advantageous pick at the pie,  followed by pier 2 and then with pier 3 getting to pick over the scraps left over from the previous two piers

 

Whether that's you trying to describe a canary's song or whether the canary had some of the right notes but not necessarily in the right order I can't determine. But, your cover version differs from the original artist's version somewhat.

[Matt C]

35 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

 

Whether that's you trying to describe a canary's song or whether the canary had some of the right notes but not necessarily in the right order I can't determine. But, your cover version differs from the original artist's version somewhat.

 

 

Now I'm confused. . . Who's re tweeting what ? Who's singing like  a Bird ?  

[jonnyuk]

35 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

 

Whether that's you trying to describe a canary's song or whether the canary had some of the right notes but not necessarily in the right order I can't determine. But, your cover version differs from the original artist's version somewhat.

so are you saying its a load of tosh or if we decipher your words and jump to our conclusions its true?

either way this is what happens when stuff like this happens and no one is saying anything, leaves everyone to make assumptions, make our own conclusions and do some very sketchy maths, 2 + 2 = 5. 

[jonnyuk]

should say i spoke to my retailer on friday whom i have an ATP and full class 91 train with and he says currently he has had no cuts from Hornby. i'm yet to speak with local shop about the hust hush but i will on Monday.

[AY Mod]

25 minutes ago, cbrooks122000 said:

I would be surprised if a CEO is getting GBP 6m bonus, the Company doesn't make that sort of money.

 

He was just making up extra verses for his remix of the Birdie Song.

[ruggedpeak]

11 hours ago, cbrooks122000 said:

 Sadly, I wonder whether the company makes more on Scalextric and Airfix kits, than they do on railways, they are much easier to make, but I could be wrong.

But the sales of model railways is far greater. Would be interesting to know the relative margins but without model trains there is not much of a business. Hornby are reluctant to provide breakdown by brand, but the ongoing investment in the train ranges, including the European ones, suggests this remains key to the business overall.

 

£6m bonus if they make a profit, I think most City bankers would be green with envy for that! I wonder if a long term share option scheme or similar has been misunderstood? Not that it matters, the suggestion of some form of tiering does at least broadly align to my anecdotal evidence where the changes, whatever they are, have led to some form of winners and losers in the allocation of stock. The basis of that remains unclear.

[The Stationmaster]

15 hours ago, GWR-fan said:

 

Could the switch to increase online sales by the company be associated with a certain CEO receiving a GBP 6m bonus should Hornby make a profit for the financial year?   Could the drive to receive a bonus be at the expense of the retailer (and customer) loyalty built up over many years?   Could it be true that warranty returns are refurbished and then returned to retailers as new stock?   

And your evidence for this?   Don't forget that Hornby is a publicly listed company which produces trading statements, has publicly listed share prices (and therefore ordinary shareholders) and produces an Annual Report plus various trading statements and other freely available information..  I could tell you - because it is in the public domain as it is legally required to be - exactly what future share options are available to various Hornby directors IF the LTIP (Long Term Improvement Plan) delivers a certain level of profit to be achieved in the 2021/2022 financial results.  But the share price would have to grow massively if it is going to deliver £6million on those options alone.

 

But I won't bother to tell you because it is information you could have checked for yourself before you fired from the hip with invented figures.  You or I might, or might not. like Hornby and certain aspects of things it might have done lately but it might help to stick to facts.  Eric Morecambe once said something about playing the right notes in the wrong order - which would be somewhat  more accurate than playing the wrong notes in any order.

Edited May 16, 2021 by The Stationmaster
correct typos

[Ouroborus]

If we're going down the path of providing evidence for every thing we see and hear, many of these threads will dry up quickly. 

 

I'm quite sure GWR-fan is not the only contributer to have reported a rumour, 'my sources say', 'word has it that'?