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6 hours ago, mvwilson said:

Band 3 retailers <Snip> manufacturing competing products 

(my emphasis)

 

There, buried in mvwilson's dense stream of consciousness post, is what this is really all about, IMHO.

 

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6 hours ago, mvwilson said:

From AJM Railways 

 

... Now 4 months later they have finally given explanation to why and how each account is banded. In this announcement, they describe Band 3 retailers such as AJM as "retailers who dont have a shop or if they do it may be of such a standard no one would want to visit it". Other criteria would include bad credit history, manufacturing competing products and not stocking the full range of Hornby Brands (eg Airfix etc). ..

Now this explains a lot. Hattons do have a shop, in a partitioned off part of their warehouse, in an industrial estate effectively accessible only by car, so presumably they are Band 3'd on the basis that hardly anyone will want visit it. Kernow, who have been mentioned several times as still able to supply to preorder, have not one but two shops, both very presentable and in streets with other shops nearby.

Looks like Hornby's version of Bachmann's long standing "no bricks and mortar shop, no account" policy.

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4 hours ago, Andy W said:

Now this explains a lot. Hattons do have a shop, in a partitioned off part of their warehouse, in an industrial estate effectively accessible only by car, so presumably they are Band 3'd on the basis that hardly anyone will want visit it.

 

Hattons have a physical shop (currently closed due to Covid)  - you could walk in off the street and visit. With free parking outside, I have seen people turn up and do just that. For all the cries that it's not accessible by public transport, most journeys are made by car and free parking counts for a lot more than a handy bus route I'm sorry to say.

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4 hours ago, sandwich station said:

 

Pre-orders don't work like that, payment is only taken when the item is in stock.

Some do ask for a deposit, eg Derails.

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I'm struggling to reconcile Hornby's selling a seemingly increasing amount of their stock via Amazon with their suppposed desire to support (part of) their retailer network.

 

edit: for the avoidance of doubt I'm talking about Amazon selling Hornby products, not Hornby selling via Amazon. 

Edited by spamcan61
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I pre-ordered a Hornby item many months ago. The shop still has the item as a pre-order to this day yet the item has been and gone at all other outlets. A phone call confirmed that the item would eventually arrive, yet a year further on, it hasn't. As it was, I managed to buy from a different shop though at a £10 price lift. Seems to me that it is best to pre-order from two or three outlets and then cancel the stragglers. Too much of that though might enforce a non returnable deposit.

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12 hours ago, APOLLO said:

Wonder what David Icke has to say ?

 

Brit15

 

He saw it coming . I think he lives in Sheffield , just saying 

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18 minutes ago, SGP said:

I pre-ordered a Hornby item many months ago. The shop still has the item as a pre-order to this day yet the item has been and gone at all other outlets. A phone call confirmed that the item would eventually arrive, yet a year further on, it hasn't. As it was, I managed to buy from a different shop though at a £10 price lift. Seems to me that it is best to pre-order from two or three outlets and then cancel the stragglers. Too much of that though might enforce a non returnable deposit.

Which is happening with restaurant bookings and package holidays. Good in the short term for the consumer but likely to cause big problems at some point in the future. Looking at the Standard 78 which I have had cancelled I see a number of outlets are sold out while others are still open to pre-orders. I have taken a chance and ordered one from a shop that asks for a small deposit as I hope that will give me the best chance of getting one on reasonable terms.

Bernard 

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It looks like 2021 has brought us -

 

The Hornby Retailer League

 

Division 1 - The top dogs , get everything.

pre-ordering from one of these should be safe.

 

Division 2 - The maybees , get most things.

a pre-order with one of these could be a lottery.

 

Division 3 - The has-beens , get only the crumbs left over.

no pre-orders.

 

This raises several questions. Is there as clear promotion/relegation process? Is there a clear set of guidelines for the retailers? How do we know which division a retailer is in?

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1 hour ago, Phil Parker said:

veiled threats to the staff of any company gets you banned. You want to play that game

You quoted my post , then in your reply you mentioned threats. 
I never mention or insinuated threats. The only persion to mention Threats is you. 
As this Form thread is 36 pages long and growing fast all about people not happy with Hornby .  I can see a lot of un happy people about Hornby policy of cutting stock . It is also logical to think that people will be speaking to Hornby Staff at shows in a non positive maner. Talking about there dissatisfaction with Hornby and the problems with getting Hornby stock.That is what I meant about flack, I agree with you there is no need for threats etc. 

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3 hours ago, No Decorum said:

A2/2?

 

 

Quote

  4 hours ago, amwells said:

 

… the products that our customers value and cherish …

 

 

Well I value and cherish my A2 / 2 Thank you Amazon (and whoever supplied them).

 

Hornby is a bit in between the Devil and the dark blue sea. I think they are trying to juggle imported products of, perhaps, lesser quantities / longer delivery times than they anticipate, etc. They also have / had financial concerns and have a commercial requirement to maximise profit on goods they import. 

 

They can't supply / please everyone like in days past.

 

Whether what they are doing re tiers is correct etc I can't comment as I don't know the facts.

 

Brit15

 

 

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22 minutes ago, oleander said:

You quoted my post , then in your reply you mentioned threats. 
I never mention or insinuated threats. The only persion to mention Threats is you. 
As this Form thread is 36 pages long and growing fast all about people not happy with Hornby .  I can see a lot of un happy people about Hornby policy of cutting stock . It is also logical to think that people will be speaking to Hornby Staff at shows in a non positive maner. Talking about there dissatisfaction with Hornby and the problems with getting Hornby stock.That is what I meant about flack, I agree with you there is no need for threats etc. 

 

What you said was:

 

10 hours ago, oleander said:

Would not like to be a staff member working on the Hornby stand at the Next show they attend. 
I bet they will get some flack .

 

If you aren't "insinuated threats", what is this all about? And what exactly is getting "some flack" other than potential verbal abuse or worse? You are suggesting something far more then the normal moans and groans, which is why you "Would not like to be a staff member working on the Hornby stand".

 

I've laid out my position, the idea to give "some flack" to stand staff is something we don't need on this forum. This part of the conversation ends here.

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2 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

Hattons and Rails are professionals. If you hope that differences will be sorted out by a slanging match at a show for your entertainment, you'll be disappointed. Those discussions, as with all businesses, take place behind closed doors. There might be jokes, like the Rails Warley banner, but serious chats are private and not for our "entertainment".

I seem to recall that the "slanging matches" regarding Terriers etc were played out on TV for Hornby's benefit courtesy of Mr Kohler and Mr May not so long ago, springing their new range on Rails for example with cameras present. That was entirely for our entertainment. Let's stop pretending this is all very professional (unless TV PR stunts and messing customers around is clever and professional, and/or the Rails/Hattons reactions were fake and scripted), it is clear that customers are caught in the middle of this situation. It does not currently give the impression of being professionally managed, you only have to look at the Hornby website so see the issues they have undertaking simple tasks.

 

Given there is another programme in the making it is likely that there will be more of the same, because if it was just professionals behind closed doors having dull professional conversations no TV company would make it as it would be too boring for the general audience. Even the GMRC had real or confected/edited controversy.

Edited by ruggedpeak
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1 hour ago, Nile said:

It looks like 2021 has brought us -

 

The Hornby Retailer League

 

Division 1 - The top dogs , get everything.

pre-ordering from one of these should be safe.

 

Division 2 - The maybees , get most things.

a pre-order with one of these could be a lottery.

 

Division 3 - The has-beens , get only the crumbs left over.

no pre-orders.

 

This raises several questions. Is there as clear promotion/relegation process? Is there a clear set of guidelines for the retailers? How do we know which division a retailer is in?

You'd have thought Rails and Hattons would be in the Hornby Super League and thus can't be relegated.

 

Hat, coat.....

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3 hours ago, Andy W said:

Now this explains a lot. Hattons do have a shop, in a partitioned off part of their warehouse, in an industrial estate effectively accessible only by car, so presumably they are Band 3'd on the basis that hardly anyone will want visit it. Kernow, who have been mentioned several times as still able to supply to preorder, have not one but two shops, both very presentable and in streets with other shops nearby.

Looks like Hornby's version of Bachmann's long standing "no bricks and mortar shop, no account" policy.

Hornby have for many years had a policy of not supplying to retailers who do not have a proper 'bricks & mortar' tretail premises.  There were however ways round that - for example back in the 1980s one rep who visited 'a Hornby customer' who was supplied via their retail premises found that it was greengrocer's shop with no sign of any model railway items on sale (they went out through a mail order business run from someone's kitchen).

 

Many genuine retailers complained to Hornby whenever they had evidence of such tactics but there was one thing Hornby couldn't stop and that was their wholesaler which was more than happy to supply Hornby products to anyone who was able to pay for them.  Hence the backdoor route always existed in some form or other but that was blocked a while back when Hornby finally dropped its wider toy etc shop wholesaler and took all trade sales in house.

 

As far as premises are concerned the position,  quality, and level of presentation which Hornby wants retailers to provide is not a new idea although I believe there have in the past been objections from some retailers in respect of what Hornby was said to be 'going too far'  in demanding.   But overall there is nothing new in Hornby looking for things like retail premises position and access to things like town centre footfall although they have no doubt changed their views and requirements over the years and will probably continue to do so as they consider how they want their products to reach various parts of the overall marketplace.

 

But this is still a different issue from not being able to meet teh orders placed by all retailers.

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Just now, Nile said:

Perhaps they need to form their own super league.

Given both have manufacturing capabilities there is a saying about tents and toilet related activities that may be relevant. Or one about keeping your friends close.....

 

Do they really expect Hattons and Rails to simply roll over? It is said they got into manufacturing/commissioning due to supply issues from the manufacturers. Having made the leap into manufacturing is it wise to then restrict their supply of product further and potentially push them further into manufacturing? Interesting strategic question.....doing that whilst upsetting customers is certainly a curious move. I would expect a competent company to be bending over backwards to help those customers (and there seem to be a reasonable number) who have lost out as a result of whatever is going on. If Hornby knew there would be a group of disaffected customers (some/many with big pre-orders) one would expect a sales/PR push to hoover them up with positive incentives to shift their purchases.

 

If the official line is still "other retailers are available" one has to assume Simon K has been abducted by aliens or something.....

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23 minutes ago, ruggedpeak said:

I seem to recall that the "slanging matches" regarding Terriers etc were played out on TV for Hornby's benefit courtesy of Mr Kohler and Mr May not so long ago, springing their new range on Rails for example with cameras present. That was entirely for our entertainment. Let's stop pretending this is all very professional (unless TV PR stunts and messing customers around is clever and professional, and/or the Rails/Hattons reactions were fake and scripted), it is clear that customers are caught in the middle of this situation. It does not currently give the impression of being professionally managed, you only have to look at the Hornby website so see the issues they have undertaking simple tasks.

 

Given there is another programme in the making it is likely that there will be more of the same, because if it was just professionals behind closed doors having dull professional conversations no TV company would make it as it would be too boring for the general audience. Even the GMRC had real or confected/edited controversy.

 

There is a difference between joshing for the telly and serious business discussions. Those would be too dull for TV, and of no interest to anyone except a tiny number of people on here.

 

Those reaction shots - filmed from two different directions, by a single-camera setup...

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22 minutes ago, ruggedpeak said:

You'd have thought Rails and Hattons would be in the Hornby Super League and thus can't be relegated.

 

Hat, coat.....

While we obviously don't know what took place it was certainly my understanding that Rails walked away from dealing with Hornby and not vice versa.  However that is really history because it pre-dates what is happening this year and has led to this thread.

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2 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

There is a difference between joshing for the telly and serious business discussions. Those would be too dull for TV, and of no interest to anyone except a tiny number of people on here.

 

Those reaction shots - filmed from two different directions, by a single-camera setup...

oh good, fake news.......

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6 hours ago, sandwich station said:

 

Pre-orders don't work like that, payment is only taken when the item is in stock.

That is not true, I placed a pre-order with a retailer and they required me to pay in full up-front. That retailer cancelled the pre-order when the model was released. Then advertised it for sale at a very inflated price.

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25 minutes ago, ruggedpeak said:

You'd have thought Rails and Hattons would be in the Hornby Super League and thus can't be relegated.

 

Hat, coat.....


But let’s not forget that it was John Barber’s decision to sever Rails Hornby connection last August. An act of perhaps remarkable clairvoyance on his part ....maybe ?  Both the above mentioned are big players in the game and have the facilities to diversify and commission in any case.They can take the hit. But there are many good retailers here who are less fortunate and thus vulnerable and probably confused by H’s “ Tier Criteria “ when they see the likes of Amazon undercut them by in some cases a substantial margin. As others here have said,it leaves a bad taste in the mouth. Yes indeed commercial sensitivity is essential but maybe too a degree of transparency could be healthy for Hornby too in order to restore faith in what currently....on this forum at any rate....is a somewhat tarnished reputation    . I fear that is unlikely to happen.

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Thanks to Gareth at T4U and MVWilson at AJM for bringing some clarity to situation . 

 

Who would want to be a retailer in this , added to Covid and the decline in the High St all the other pressures , business rates , Brexit , there is now a petulant unpredictable (we are supporting our retailers) supplier to deal with .   So thoughts are with retailers and Hattons in particular  who I still maintain have been thrown under a bus .  My only question there is when did they know about this Tier system . Its strange , but maybe only a coincidence that Rails stopped stocking Hornby last summer around the time the Atholl arrived and their allocation cut back . Was the writing on the wall back then?

 

I get what Hornby are trying to do . Bolstering their presence in the High Street through support for established retailers is laudable . The fact that stock is still available to order direct and that they are encouraging that by their actions is less so .  The Tier system would indeed make some sense had it been introduced in January before the large announcement and retailers were informed there and then what their allocation , if any would be .   But I still find it distasteful that Hornby have cut off the largest retailer of model railways in this country  who have offered excellent service and value over the years . 

 

A poor show on Hornbys part and total disregard for the end customer .

 

If I were Hattons , I would be taking advice as they do appear to have been unfairly targeted and had their business damaged .  But it looks like the best they can do is take the Hornby crumbs of what they have in stock , while continuing to develop their own range  to make up for lost revenue . I would have thought this is now top priority. Hornbys short sighted actions may well have stirred up a hornets nest here .  I wish Hattons well . 

 

An Irony is that Hornby could sell more . They are effectively rationing sales . This from a company that desperately needs to increase sales and revenue to repay these expensive loans . So it looks to me as if they estimated original quantities wrong  ,did not secure enough manufacturing capacity  or are using that capacity to make the wrong stuff . I think whoever estimates these quantities has some answering to do , because by getting it wrong he has stunted Hornbys recovery . My conclusion from this sorry debacle is that this is a company that is not being managed well, that you can have a great deal of confidence in  and is very difficult to deal with

Edited by Legend
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