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2 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

 

Hattons have a physical shop - you could walk in off the street and visit. With free parking outside, I have seen people turn up and do just that. For all the cries that it's not accessible by public transport, most journeys are made by car and free parking counts for a lot more than a handy bus route I'm sorry to say.

Hattons are my local and preferred model retailer, I have used them since the early '70s. I have only been to their present outlet to pick up pre-orders, and they have even reduced to one or two per year.
Their warehouse is a 30 mile round trip for me by car with nothing else on route to make it a two or three shop journey, being motorway all the way. Previously I called in to their shop after a pleasant train journey into the city centre, having a look around the shops, and then a bus journey to Smithdown Road where there is also a large variety of shops and cafes. I made this trip almost weekly (weather permitting) just to get out of the house and I always made a planned or impulse purchase. Also their was no charge for transport using my travel pass.
Although Hattons are still my preferred retailer I would not now call them a 'bricks and mortar' outlet in the true sense where you would go just for a browse. I have also saved a lot of money.

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May one of the supposedly cherised great unwashed ask the obvious question ;

 

Who are the Band one (tier one) retailers ?

 

This seems to be an obvious need for people who want a (nearly) guaranteed pre-order of a Hornby future release.

 

Obviously every retailer knows their status (although it may change), why shouldn't the poor sods paying for the product ?

 

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36 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

There is a difference between joshing for the telly and serious business discussions. Those would be too dull for TV, and of no interest to anyone except a tiny number of people on here.

 

Those reaction shots - filmed from two different directions, by a single-camera setup...


Which in fact did take place without media intrusion...the cameras weren’t there,I mean. ...between the space between each of their respective stands. No I was not a party to nor privy to that  discussion .Nor would I repeat it under any circumstances. Suffice it to say by chance I observed the exchange as I wanted a chat with one of the parties concerned and quickly backed away on realising,as one does in such circumstances,that a “full and frank” conversation was taking place.I heard nothing of that discussion.

 

 I’m posting this in order to clarify matters .You are quite correct.

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6 minutes ago, Free At Last said:

Although Hattons are still my preferred retailer I would not now call them a 'bricks and mortar' outlet in the true sense where you would go just for a browse. I have also saved a lot of money.

I would agree when they moved it felt like a warehouse with a customer service point - sort of like Toolstation or Argos, I guess it met the conditions of being a shop.  It gave me the feeling that they wanted to shift online but were constrained from doing so.  

 

To be fair, eventually there was more to the customer service area and it would often be busy when I visited, still felt more Argos than model shop though.

 

The Smithdown Road site was very much 'in the style of' a model railway shop though it did look on the brink of collapse always, the new warehouse was a must really.   Better premises within Liverpool City Centre were never going to be cheap and given the volume of mail order they handled, an out of town warehouse was the right option.

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5 minutes ago, phil gollin said:

why shouldn't the poor sods paying for the product ?

 

I don't know who you're asking for a list but as far as I'm aware no-one has drawn up a list.

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There is a clear distinction between a shop with a street front or walk-in showroom and one that you have to know about to find on a trading estate. In terms of the strategy, a lot of business is done online these days, but I can see why a company would not want another middleman when they can either sell direct themselves or by way of the global behemoth that is Amazon. For shop sales, Hornby has said that this network is important to them, but that importance (and the one that direct sales and Amazon cannot achieve) is a visible high street presence. So a bright, clean well laid out accessible and visible shop very clearly will get you into the top bands!

Edited by andyman7
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There is are two obvious solutions for retailers who want to commission their own models (maybe more) ;

 

1:  Go into some form of "partnership" with an existing "small supplier", so instead of coming out for sale with a retailer's name on it it would be officially be produced by a third party.

 

2:  Form a dummy company ( e.g. HattonRail anonymous ) and act like one of the "smaller suppliers".

 

At  the moment it would seem only the honest and upfront retailers are suffering.

 

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2 minutes ago, andyman7 said:

There is a clear distinction between a shop with a street front or walk-in showroom and one that you have to know about to find on a trading estate. In terms of the strategy, a lot of business is done online these days, but I can see why a company would not want another middleman when they can either sell direct themselves or by way of the global behemoth that is Amazon. For shop sales, Hornby has said that this network is important to them, but that importance (and the one that direct sales and Amazon cannot achieve) is a visible high street presence. So a bright, clean well laid out shop very clearly will get you into the top bands!


Of course,just like Rails tastefully refurbished shop .........oh,wait a minute though :jester:

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2 minutes ago, phil gollin said:

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Well, rather obviously Hornby have a list.

 

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You can't argue with that logic!

As individual retailers, we have been informed of our status, but there is no published list (as of today)
It could be quite divisive if revealed, which is why it probably won't be.

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7 minutes ago, Nile said:

Which will lead to people creating their own lists, probably full of errors. Things like this don't stay secret for long.

 

And is it a dynamic list ? When does it change ?

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33 minutes ago, phil gollin said:

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Well, rather obviously Hornby have a list.

 

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Note: I'm not comparing Hornby to Nazi Germany before anyone jumps on that ;)

Edited by Bucoops
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26 minutes ago, Trains4U said:


You can't argue with that logic!

As individual retailers, we have been informed of our status, but there is no published list (as of today)
It could be quite divisive if revealed, which is why it probably won't be.

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Well, advertising your "Band 1" status would be a great selling point (as one person further up the thread has already subtly done)  unless, of course, the list is  "commercially confidential".

 

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1 minute ago, phil gollin said:

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Well, advertising your "Band 1" status would be a great selling point (as one person further up the thread has already subtly done)  unless, of course, the list is  "commercially confidential".

 

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Do you imagine it wouldn't be - terms of dealing with Hornby will be confidential between both parties, just like any other company would set in place.

 

I think this thread has now reached a point where we know the issue that is blighting pre-orders and why it has impacted Hattons so hard whilst others are less impacted and some not at all.

 

Just like with Bachmann and Hattons, we're not going to be privy to any actual detail of what has been discussed between Hornby and it's retailers, and unless a retailer is willing to lose their agreement with Hornby they are very unlikely to be discussing it openly in a forum such as this.  AJM made a statement on their website, I would imagine because they had become tier three having no bricks and mortar shop, previously having had the same issue with Bachmann and supplying their range through the grey market.

 

I think we know as much as we are going to know now, if your local retailer is offering pre-orders you can probably safely order from them.

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One could make a killing selling Tier One tee-shirts to the lucky proprietors.

 

More seriously, the overall lack of transparency at work here is an insult to the consumer.

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6 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

Do you imagine it wouldn't be - terms of dealing with Hornby will be confidential between both parties, just like any other company would set in place.

 

I think this thread has now reached a point where we know the issue that is blighting pre-orders and why it has impacted Hattons so hard whilst others are less impacted and some not at all.

 

Just like with Bachmann and Hattons, we're not going to be privy to any actual detail of what has been discussed between Hornby and it's retailers, and unless a retailer is willing to lose their agreement with Hornby they are very unlikely to be discussing it openly in a forum such as this.  AJM made a statement on their website, I would imagine because they had become tier three having no bricks and mortar shop, previously having had the same issue with Bachmann and supplying their range through the grey market.

 

I think we know as much as we are going to know now, if your local retailer is offering pre-orders you can probably safely order from them.

I would agree totally with you up to the last sentence and just as an example you will find items available on pre-order on the Hattons site.  No criticism of them if they think there is a chance they can fulfil such orders.  It does however show that offering preorders is not even now a measure that orders will be safe.  They never were of course but this issue has sharpened that insecurity.

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12 minutes ago, Downer said:

One could make a killing selling Tier One tee-shirts to the lucky proprietors.

 

More seriously, the overall lack of transparency at work here is an insult to the consumer.

 

Ooh, scope for a Popmaster spoof - One Tier Out!

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1 hour ago, phil gollin said:

.

 

There is are two obvious solutions for retailers who want to commission their own models (maybe more) ;

 

1:  Go into some form of "partnership" with an existing "small supplier", so instead of coming out for sale with a retailer's name on it it would be officially be produced by a third party.

 

2:  Form a dummy company ( e.g. HattonRail anonymous ) and act like one of the "smaller suppliers".

 

At  the moment it would seem only the honest and upfront retailers are suffering.

 

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While we certainly do not know what happened between Rails and Hornby, I will say that Rails had passed though a classic manufacturer for their products (Dapol, Heljan, Rapido etc). They were not sourcing/manufacturing/designing in house. Even the DCC items are another makes products re-branded.

 

If it was a question of "oh you are manufacturing products yourself" following the introduction of terriers, then technically that is not correct as they commissioned Dapol to do it, the latter selling direct and also via the NRM. Equally the Dapol/Rails terrier had long since been announced with decorated examples when Hornby suddenly sprung theirs.

Now there was a hint of Hornby doing the D/E class in an SECR journal prior to the Rails/Dapol announcement but again this was Dapol engaged with Rails and the NRM (who own the prototype) to produce the D.

 

When Hornby announced their blue rocket coach, Rails promptly withdrew their 3D printed one. Now maybe Hornby initially only planned for their coach to appear in bigger sets to make us spend more. But the last manufacturer that made us end customers play complex games in the hopes of buying certain models went bankrupt. 

 

When I worked at the Signal Box in the 1990s, Hornby was talking about direct sales then (prior to the internet) and my boss said, if Hornby goes that route, we will start manufacturing.

Roll on a couple of decades, Hornby do Direct sales doubtless eating into shop sales, so naturally shops will want some own brand to compensate.

 

If Hornby heads into (and I am not saying they will, but this is a hypothetical evolution),  "online sales are exclusive to Hornby, you can only sell to visiting customers and shows" they will probably kill the model shops off entirely at worst or certainly loose presence inside them.

 

This could then even evolve into (though I seriously doubt they would do something this stupid!)  "you can only sell our products and no one elses" which would be effectively shooting their own legs off.

It should be noted that shops large and small do an awful lot of marketing on Hornby's behalf. And most certainly have better end customer contact and skills. 

 

I think - if the tier system is very real - that enforcing this suddenly midway of year long after all pre-orders have been placed is really bad timing. They should have at least honored all pre-orders and then tell the shops it will be enforced for 2022s announcements so shops and end customers are suddenly not left high and dry.

Edited by JSpencer
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2 minutes ago, Legend said:

 

And is it a dynamic list ? When does it change ?


It’s classic supply v demand ....

 

In a parallel universe, there is a similar thing occurring where there is a precious commodity while the demand for the services outstrips the supply.

 

I’m thinking about Harry Kane! Spurs currently have his valuable services but he is considering his options. While Spurs haven’t publicly declared the ‘banding’ of options, it’s not rocket science to workout ... 

 

Priority 1: Keep Kane at Spurs. This option keeps all the ‘goodies’ in-house

 

Priority 2: Sell the services of Kane to a trusted other party for an agreeable price. Example characteristics being a non-rival. Eg Sell to a club abroad (different market place) or complimentary club/different league  ... A non-rival, eg A Man City or Liverpool or Southend Utd(!).

 

Priority 3: If getting desperate for income ... trade through gritted teeth to a rival that’s swimming in the same pond. Eg Chelsea, West Ham, Palace(!) etc.

 

Priority 4: Trade with your mortal enemy ... Arsenal!

 

Relating this analogy back to the Hornby supply v demand pre-order topic; I wouldn’t be surprised if the only trader in Band 1 is Hornby itself (or perhaps they are Band 0). I suspect that retailers that have over time become rivals to Hornby are in a lower banding. However retailers that are complimentary to Hornby and are currently trusted maintain a higher banding and better position in the priority list.

 

This approach makes sense to me. However, as Stationmaster has indicated ... the underlying root cause to get to this situation with the pre-orders appears to be a fundamental mismatch between supply v demand.

 

ps I searched the www but couldn’t find anywhere to place a pre-order for Harry Kane for next season!

 

 

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4 minutes ago, JSpencer said:

 

I think - if the tier system is very real - that enforcing this suddenly midway of year long after all pre-orders have been placed is really bad timing. They should have at least honored all pre-orders and then tell the shops it will be enforced for 2022s announcements so shops and end customers are suddenly not left high and dry.

 

 

Exactly!

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26 minutes ago, Andy Hayter said:

I would agree totally with you up to the last sentence and just as an example you will find items available on pre-order on the Hattons site.  No criticism of them if they think there is a chance they can fulfil such orders.  It does however show that offering preorders is not even now a measure that orders will be safe.  They never were of course but this issue has sharpened that insecurity.

I said it on the basis that the damage has been done with the enforcement of the tiering by Hornby, the mistake was they did it after the January announcements or Hattons believed they could perhaps resolve it before the products were about to be shipped.

 

Again, this is similar with the Bachmann issue, people were awaiting pre-orders with assurances from Hattons the models would arrive but they couldn't resolve their disagreement with Bachmann and eventually had to accept the inevitable.  I may be wrong but I always understood that the models in this case were being held at Barwell, so then released to other shops allowing those who had missed out to order from those shops when the items were released and not lose out.

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1 hour ago, Ian Hargrave said:


Of course,just like Rails tastefully refurbished shop .........oh,wait a minute though :jester:

They are also a manufacturer (including a Terrier....) so presumably another clause was the issue there

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1 hour ago, Legend said:

If I were Hattons , I would be taking advice as they do appear to have been unfairly targeted and had their business damaged .  But it looks like the best they can do is take the Hornby crumbs of what they have in stock , while continuing to develop their own range  to make up for lost revenue . I would have thought this is now top priority. Hornbys short sighted actions may well have stirred up a hornets nest here .  I wish Hattons well . 


I fully agree, but its Hornby's products, Hornby's rules.  People won't stop buying Hornby products out of solidarity with Hattons.  Society doesn't work like that anymore.  Its all about the ME now.  Forget everyone and anything else, no matter who and what i have to trample over, I WILL get what I want.

Edited by Ouroborus
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