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6 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

I cannot believe there are now people asking for Hornby to fail so it can be bought out by a liquidation company and be reborn.

 

Lets be clear, that is not a good outcome, using Top Shop / Burtons as an example - it still exists but only online, no bricks and mortar and only available through a select number of sites.

 

The knock on effect of Arcadia going down was it was the final nail in the coffin of Debenhams which closed it's doors last week.

 

From what I've read all Hornby has done is re-align it's business along similar lines to Bachmann, it demands a brick and mortar presence to get the new stock and it wants the retailers it does business with to have a good financial footing plus it cannot be a competitor.

 

In some respects it has levelled the playing field with Bachmann, both now trade on similar terms.

 

This has impacted Hattons twice now and clearly Hattons must have understood the risk when they became a manufacturer, they first lost Bachmann but have carried on so must feel that the benefit outweighs the risk and have now seen them lose some Hornby business - they can still buy from the warehouse, all they have lost are the pre-orders.  Clearly they will re-align to take account of this loss, maybe there is stuff coming from Hattons we're not even aware of yet but will make up the shortfall.

 

Rails have taken a different approach and were prepared to lose their income from Hornby and replace it with other stuff.  I have no idea what happened between Hornby and Rails that saw them part company but it's clear they felt it was in their best interest to do so.

 

Both Hattons and Rails like Hornby are adjusting new business models, they are all sound businesses and the only mud slinging in this whole saga is on forums and Facebook by disgruntled modellers who ordered in good faith mainly from Hattons.

 

To me the only real issue is that of the customer experience and that comes down to when Hattons became aware it's orders were not going to be fulfilled, how long it held on to the pre-orders before informing customers they wouldn't be honored and what part Hornby had in all this.   On the one hand, if Hattons have been in negotiations with Hornby since going into Tier 3 then I can understand why they would only cancel pre-orders as the items became due to be delivered, you're not going to cancel orders whilst an agreement can be reached.  On the other, they cynically held on to pre-orders knowing they would not be fulfilled.  I doubt it is the latter and imagine that Hattons have been in negotiations with Hornby since they learnt about being in Tier 3 to see if they could resolve the situation.

 

I don't think that anyone has said that they want Hornby to fail. 

 

What any of us want is probably neither here nor there. Hornby are heading for failure with this fiasco. They were doing something similar a couple of years ago (favouring their own direct sales) but drew back from the brink. Now, here they are doing it again and in a way that is even more damaging to some retailers.

 

I have said that I would not be bothered if they did fail because I think that their current behaviour is bad for the hobby. The biggest worry is that some valuable tooling will disappear in the process.

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If you look at the history of modelnrailways there has been waves of traders in fashion and out of fashion often due to reasons beyond the knowledge of Joe public, I can think of a number if places that were major favourites that have either disappeared or gone down the pecking list. Unfortunately it has not always been to the benefit of the modeller with wrong judgements on all sides, that's business unfortunately.

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14 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

What any of us want is probably neither here nor there. Hornby are heading for failure with this fiasco. They were doing something similar a couple of years ago (favouring their own direct sales) but drew back from the brink. Now, here they are doing it again and in a way that is even more damaging to some retailers.

 

But are they heading for failure?  They are actually protecting the shops that sell their products by not allowing people to set up a secure storage facility and just sell online without a physical presence.  Hattons I imagine is about competition not the location or style of their shop and I don't see any sign of them having a poor credit score.

 

That this subject has so much focus is probably down to the fact so many people use Hattons as their go to store, and now people are going to have to look elsewhere for must have Hornby items.  If it just been Durham Trains of Stanley, it would have been a one page thread with everyone saying try Hattons and it would have just ended there.  The topic has gone on because it impacts mainly one very large retailer, but if we look around there are plenty of others willing to take pre-orders and capable of fulfilling orders, it just takes a few more seconds on Google to find them, or a trip into town.  It was exactly the same with the Bachmann issue.

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9 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

But are they heading for failure?  They are actually protecting the shops that sell their products by not allowing people to set up a secure storage facility and just sell online without a physical presence.  Hattons I imagine is about competition not the location or style of their shop and I don't see any sign of them having a poor credit score.

 

 

 

I have nothing at all against the idea of only selling to "bricks and mortar" outlets. Indeed, I am 100% in favour. Walthers operated the same policy and is what led me to rent a shop.

 

But Hornby are selling direct and via Amazon.

 

So they have two completely contradictory policies. That is rarely a recipe for success. 

 

As you say, in Hatton's case, it looks like spite from Hornby about Hatton's becoming a rival commissioner/producer. But how much is that impacting Hornby? Is it costing them as much business as they lose from ditching Hatton's as a retailer. I doubt it.

 

But as I understand it, Hatton's is by no means the only retailer to have lost at least a part of its orders in this event.

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22 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

But are they heading for failure?  They are actually protecting the shops that sell their products by not allowing people to set up a secure storage facility and just sell online without a physical presence.  

 

I agree with much of what you say, but given Hornby are still happy to sell to and through Amazon - at 30% discount in some cases - the "protecting the small retailer" pitch doesn't have much credibility IMHO.

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It maybe that if anyone raises things with Hornby there is more mileage pointing out the small trretailer issue rather than Hattons/Rails, maybe that is more where they,ve got their judgement off mark and more easily influenced to change it.

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5 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

I have nothing at all against the idea of only selling to "bricks and mortar" outlets. Indeed, I am 100% in favour. Walthers operated the same policy and is what led me to rent a shop.

 

But Hornby are selling direct and via Amazon.

 

So they have two completely contradictory policies. That is rarely a recipe for success. 

 

As you say, in Hatton's case, it looks like spite from Hornby about Hatton's becoming a rival commissioner/producer. But how much is that impacting Hornby? Is it costing them as much business as they lose from ditching Hatton's as a retailer. I doubt it.

 

But as I understand it, Hatton's is by no means the only retailer to have lost at least a part of its orders in this event.

The Amazon items are not pre-orders, they are unsold in stock items, shops are able to sell them at discount too.  What will be interesting to know is if the prices are dynamic or deliberately set low and stay low, comments here suggest the prices are rising once people begin purchasing so it's not simply an online firesale of unsold stock, it is a conjured offering,

 

Hattons is also able to buy from Hornby in stock items and sell them on it's website, it is just barred at the moment from pre-ordering.

 

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1 hour ago, Matt C said:

Joseph have you ever tried herding cats ? Good luck getting all the involved retailers agreeing to THAT :rolleyes:. Unfortunately I have no idea if my interpretation is correct, I just seam to remember reading in the past that this is how Hornby operated and that retailers didn't really know just how many yhey would be getting until very near to delivery.. it would be good if a retailer could confirm this so if I'm wrong I can stfu ! :jester:

 

I have had the misfortune to have had two cat-herding jobs. And been involved in local politics, which is much the same thing.

 

We have been seeing some collaboration between retailers. Hatton's selling Olivia's Models locos. Hatton's setting up their wholesale operation so that modellers can buy local rather than from Hatton's. Other small businesses manage to group together to protect their mutual interests. I don't see why model shops should be any different.

 

I wonder if any of the retailers concerned are members of FSB.

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2 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

The Amazon items are not pre-orders, they are unsold in stock items, shops are able to sell them at discount too.  What will be interesting to know is if the prices are dynamic or deliberately set low and stay low, comments here suggest the prices are rising once people begin purchasing so it's not simply an online firesale of unsold stock, it is a conjured offering,

 

Hattons is also able to buy from Hornby in stock items and sell them on it's website, it is just barred at the moment from pre-ordering.

 

 

I have just been on Hatton's website.

 

It looks as though they are not currently ordering any Hornby.

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3 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

I have just been on Hatton's website.

 

It looks as though they are not currently ordering any Hornby.


Who could blame them when they appear not to have a clue what they will get? 

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6 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

I have just been on Hatton's website.

 

It looks as though they are not currently ordering any Hornby.

There are still pre-order items in Future Items (which may be wrong now) but nothing on there I can see that Hattons have stopped doing business.  As I understand it, Hattons in Tier three are able to order in stock items in the warehouse, so items will only appear on Hattons website after they have obtained them, they cannot put future items in now so it will look odd and perhaps be like Bachmann that there will be an influx as and when they source items (albeit the Bachmann items are through other retailers selling stock to Hattons now).

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46 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

Hattons I imagine is about competition not the location or style of their shop and I don't see any sign of them having a poor credit score.

 

 

 

I did not want to comment on the financials before doing a quick check. Hatton's are rock-solid. I would not want to pick a fight with them as Hornby has.

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3 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

There are still pre-order items in Future Items (which may be wrong now) but nothing on there I can see that Hattons have stopped doing business.  As I understand it, Hattons in Tier three are able to order in stock items in the warehouse, so items will only appear on Hattons website after they have obtained them, they cannot put future items in now so it will look odd and perhaps be like Bachmann that there will be an influx as and when they source items (albeit the Bachmann items are through other retailers selling stock to Hattons now).

 

Look at the Hornby pages on Hatton's and compare with same page on Kernow. Hardly any new Hornby on Hatton's, all S/H.

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3 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

I did not want to comment on the financials before doing a quick check. Hatton's are rock-solid. I would not want to pick a fight with them as Hornby has.

But again, you are speaking for others (Hattons) with neither consent nor knowledge of their position. Why?

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1 minute ago, col.stephens said:

 

Yes, but as already mentioned way back in this thread, how does the customer know which retailers are in a position to obtain those Hornby items?  Unless Hornby publish a list of their Band 1 retailers, we are all in the dark.

I think the issue is not which retailers are safe to buy from but how this change has been handled either by Hattons or Hornby or both.

 

Other retailers have been impacted but not to the extent of Hattons, I think once this settles pre-ordering from your local shop won't be an issue again except in those well known cases of Hornby under delivering - but that is a different matter to this case.

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9 minutes ago, black and decker boy said:

But again, you are speaking for others (Hattons) with neither consent nor knowledge of their position. Why?

 

Your comment is a complete non-sequitur.

 

Where is it that I am "speaking for others" or more specifically for Hatton's?

 

Woodenhead raised a point that is relevant to "Tier 3" and I checked it out. The Hatton's financials are readily available with a quick internet search. And so are Hornby's? One company is in a much stronger position financially than the other.

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20 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

I have had the misfortune to have had two cat-herding jobs. And been involved in local politics, which is much the same thing.

 

We have been seeing some collaboration between retailers. Hatton's selling Olivia's Models locos. Hatton's setting up their wholesale operation so that modellers can buy local rather than from Hatton's. Other small businesses manage to group together to protect their mutual interests. I don't see why model shops should be any different.

 

I wonder if any of the retailers concerned are members of FSB.


IIRC,Hattons have recently ceased their wholesale operation? 

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27 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

Hatton's setting up their wholesale operation so that modellers can buy local rather than from Hatton's.

 

Hattons ceased wholesaling a few months ago.

 

edit; Ian beat me to it.

Edited by newbryford
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Just seen this post on the Hornby facebook page, not sure if it is of any relevance to the current situation being discussed here.

 

'Quote from Hornby FB page'

Hornby Model Railways

taS1pornsoredeh  ·

Following a multi-million pound refurbishment, we are thrilled to have a presence in the #JohnLewis store in Edinburgh!

The store which is located in St James Quarter reopened on 14th May and alongside a raft of new services, an #interactive Hornby Flying Scotsman layout is on display to pay homage to its Edinburgh location.

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I think those that think that Hornby should not sell direct or via Amazon fail to recognise just how much those channels are essential for Hornby's brand range in the modern world.

I have just gone into Bachmann's US website - where Bachmann is  a household name selling to a much broader market than the UK Branchline range - and guess what? They have an online shop! They have an Amazon shop!

It is very clear that Hornby want a retail shop presence that complements these two channels - that means a physical shop that provides a showroom to the general public and expands awareness. This does mean that tin sheds on trading estates are less likely to be top of the list.

I very rarely use Amazon (personal choice). I don't order from Hornby direct, yet I am finding that I can buy what I want from Hornby by dint of a regular relationship with a couple of retail shops that I would guess are getting supplies because they have a high street shop front with bright, clean, well presented stock. I enjoy the visit but both will do online ordering and will fit decoders/weather/provide advice. Both are also a bit cheaper than the online Hornby shop,
I do not want Hattons to go under but actually having observed their business (and that of Rails) I believe they have a good business model for the future - much broader ranges, contract manufacturing, big secondhand throughput that is all online rather than piled up at exhibitions so reaches a different audience. So I can see that they will be less dependent on the old-fashioned box-shifting model.

I sympathise with those who have had pre-orders cancelled but if items are really wanted, there still seem to be options for re-ordering from other retailers.

In short, the fairly apocalyptic nature of some of the reactions here (Hornby must be investigated! Made to suffer! Get the press involved!) seems frankly completely OTT. 

It will be interesting to hear what Hornby comes back with on the basis of Phil/Andy Y's inquiry but I suspect that judging by this thread whatever the explanation there will still be toys scattered around the pram...

 

Edited by andyman7
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I had a large pre order for Hornby items cancelled by Hattons. Fortunately I've managed to pre order these items from kernow. But its madness that Hornby would refuse to supply its largest customer. Ultimately its the end user, us that lose out

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In the light of events that have been discussed in this thread it is interesting to look back at various changes which took place at Hornby when the present management took charge. An excellent example is the views in respect of discounting expressed by the new Chairman, Lyndon Davies in the company's Annual Report dated 18 June 2018 together with earlier comments from the same source regarding re-establishing trust with retailers.

https://wp-Hornby-2020.s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/media/2020/02/07150249/28793_Hornby_AR18_FINAL-FINAL.pdf

 

The Interim Report published via RNS on 28 November 2019 also makes interesting reading in the context of what is being said about the tier system as it mentions 'providing a level playing field for all our retailers'.  Have a read because I get the impression from their posts in this thread that some retailers are now less than happy despite Hornby's Chairman wishing to keep them so 

https://wp-Hornby-2020.s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/media/2020/02/27161157/HRN-Interim-Report-2019.pdf

 

Now read the 'Routes To Market' section of the most recent Interim Report where, once again, emphasis is placed on the importance of physical retailers including a note regarding  (striving) 'to provide a fair playing field for all'.  But it does add a comment about  'developing new lines of thought';  that was published on 28 October 2020

https://wp-Hornby-2020.s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/media/2020/11/12114059/Hornby-interim-report-Sept-2020.pdf

 

Since then the company has issued a Trading Statement which appeared on RNS on 13 April and said nothing about any changes to to what was previously said in respect of 'Routes To Market'. although if certain things quoted in this thread are correct there had actually been a substantial change.  Like any company Hornby can of course do exactly what it wishes in respect of how it trades provided it complies with the law.  But to say one thing and then do another does seem rather odd to say the least and it seems strange that a company with a very strongly stated, and repeated, ethos against discounting then starts selling new stock via Amazon with that concern's known penchant for slashing prices.  Are we possibly going back to a situation where retailers might wonder if it is worth buying stock from Hornby (if they can get it) when it is being retailed by Amazon for what might possibly be less than a retailer has to pay for it?

 

Clearly something has changed within Hornby, possibly even without the Chairman's knowledge or agreement (?), when previously publicly stated policy appears to have gone for a burton.   I can incidentally see that they might decide to give lower priority to supplying a retailer who does not have a 'High Street' presence - that would in my view fit with their previously stated policy.   However some non-High St concerns do, I understand, have high levels of business via personal callers and they pre-order models to supply those regulars.  So clearly any sort of  'Tier' system has to be carefully 'tuned' to take account of information from the reps who deal with such businesses.

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39 minutes ago, andyman7 said:

 

It is very clear that Hornby want a retail shop presence that complements these two channels - that means a physical shop that provides a showroom to the general public and expands awareness. This does mean that tin sheds on trading estates are less likely to be top of the list.

 

 

 

I know a couple of retailers that have moved from town centre locations to industrial estates. Done their businesses a great deal of good and they have been able to create a much better ambiance for the customers. And of course free parking is an attraction.

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