Preorder email

[Joseph_Pestell]

1 hour ago, Michael Hodgson said:

..except that the EU and the member states own the law courts and Hornby are just another relatively small PLC.

 

EU vs AZ is comparable to Post Office vs sub-postmasters.  The little guy might well go out of business before he gets anywhere against the system even  if he is in the right.  And as usual it's the lawyers who will win.

 

And I thought that I was a sceptic!

 

I do believe that the Courts will uphold the law. And, happily, the postmasters did finally get a result of sorts.

[MikeParkin65]

1 hour ago, Legend said:

But you never get the knowledge , because no one with any influence asks any questions . In the vacuum people are left to form own conclusions .

 

What do we know?

Hornby have been cancelling preorders to retailers . We know this from Hattons emails , direct confirmation from Durham Trains of Stanley and Trains4U . Hornby still have these models for sale directly from them.  Conclusion? Hornby want you to order direct , cut out the middleman and secure margin for themselves . 
 

Why does this matter ? Well it’s not critical in the scheme of COVID , Astra Zeneca and EU .  But it does affect retailers  it may result in less model shops . Hornby management (the current ones) make a lot out of supporting their retail base . Actions don’t seem to match 

That’s why I said 99% - to allow for the few bits of factual info in this thread. Everything else including your conclusion about Hornby’s motives are pure speculation. There is far more we do not know including whether Hornby are getting the quantity of stock they have ordered in the first place. 

[Legend]

21 minutes ago, MikeParkin65 said:

That’s why I said 99% - to allow for the few bits of factual info in this thread. Everything else including your conclusion about Hornby’s motives are pure speculation. There is far more we do not know including whether Hornby are getting the quantity of stock they have ordered in the first place. 

But across the range and as little as a tenth of what they ordered ? Unlikely . And wouldn’t you be honour bound to satisfy your retailers orders before continuing to offer them for sale direct? 

[AY Mod]

37 minutes ago, scumcat said:

How do we know Hornby is not communicating with affected retailers?

 

I can't say that it's all of course, but I certainly know some who are a bit frustrated.

[Trains4U]

Hornby are communicating, it’s just very to-the-point in a “we’ve changed your quantities and that’s final” sort of way.

[Bernard Lamb]

33 minutes ago, Trains4U said:

Hornby are communicating, it’s just very to-the-point in a “we’ve changed your quantities and that’s final” sort of way.

What back in the day was called "mushroom culture".

It must be so frustrating.

Bad enough for me as an individual, although so far not affected, but potential financial ruin for a business.

Bernard

[ruggedpeak]

The question remains why are retailers having their orders reduced for items readily available on the Hornby website?

 

I have this and a substantial amount of other Hornby items on pre-order with a retailer. I have not had any notifications of cancellations but if I do Hornby can be assured I will not be spending that money with them directly. It will go on items from other manufacturers. No point ordering a TfW 67and coaches if there is no certainty of getting it. Another TPE 68 and coach set might be in order......

[ruggedpeak]

2 hours ago, MikeParkin65 said:

That’s why I said 99% - to allow for the few bits of factual info in this thread. Everything else including your conclusion about Hornby’s motives are pure speculation. There is far more we do not know including whether Hornby are getting the quantity of stock they have ordered in the first place. 

I have the answer: Our models are at the bottom of the ocean

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-04-26/shipping-containers-plunge-overboard-as-supply-race-raises-risks

 

The shipping industry is seeing the biggest spike in lost containers in seven years. More than 3,000 boxes dropped into the sea last year, and more than 1,000 have fallen overboard so far in 2021. The accidents are disrupting supply chains for hundreds of U.S. retailers and manufacturers such as Amazon and Tesla..........

 

Ooooops (interesting bit of modelling, perhaps using card containers offered by certain suppliers?)
 

Edited April 27, 2021 by ruggedpeak

[Fireline]

14 hours ago, Trains4U said:

Hornby are communicating, it’s just very to-the-point in a “we’ve changed your quantities and that’s final” sort of way.

 

Thanks for that. Can you confirm if, when you ordered initially, Hornby confirmed your order for X number? Would be interesting to know how it works.

[The Stationmaster]

14 hours ago, Eddie R v2.0 said:

Visited my local shop yesterday and the owner and I were chatting about this very problem. They had a number of Network Rail Mk3 DVTs preordered but I was shown the rather abrupt email saying that they were only getting one. No real explanation from Hornby as to why. The reason I had asked was that I’ve got an IC Swallow one on order with them and was concerned it may suffer the same fate. If it does get cancelled then I’ll not reorder as it’s a “nice to have” rather than a need to have for my plans. 
 

The way I see it, Hornby are doing damage to the customer base of these small independent shops. The quantity that our local shop had ordered wasn’t excessive but they will now have to disappoint some of their loyal customers. I really feel

for them so hopefully this doesn’t become a long term situation. 

And Hornby could also be damaging their own customer base and reputation.  The heart of this problem - and it is a problem for both retailers (= their livelihood) and us (not getting the things we thought we were going to get = disappointment and frustration) is that something which has been ordered in good faith will not be supplied and no explanation has been given for that shortcoming.  But at the same time lo and behold the company which said it could not meet it's (trade) customers' (and our) orders is selling the things it can't supply them & us with from its own website.

 

In the past I have tolerated Hornby's rationing (and it was usually accompanied by an explanation from the rep to the retailer so there was at least some concern for and explanation to the customer).  But now there seems to be a wall of silence around Margate - just blunt emails to retailers with no explanation at all.  Obviously Hornby do not necessarily need to make any sort of statement to customers - that is wholly their prerogative.  But there are - from this thread alone - clearly some disappointed and frustrated potential purchasers (and retailers) out there.

And that comes at the same time that the company is telling its shareholders (and anyone else who cares to look) this -

 

Whilst the COVID-19 pandemic continues to present uncertainty, both Hornby and our suppliers have been able to operate more effectively through the current restrictions than was the case in the first lockdown, as evidenced by the resilient levels of activity seen in Q4.

(copied directly from Hornby's Trading Statement dated 13 April 202i.)  

 

The statement was posted on RNS two weeks after the Suez Canal had reopened and its closure was not mentioned in the statement.

 

[john new]

At the risk of going off topic it is not just the model trade that are delaying items. An e-book I have on Kindle pre-order was, IIRC, initially due out in March, two delay dates given and not met during April (the 2nd one was for today) and it is now again delayed for a release on 5th May. Turbulent times and not only physical products getting delayed although with e-books it is possible the e-releases are being delayed so as to marry up with physical copies being available. [printed overseas - container stuck in transit on a ship?]

[Harlequin]

I have an image of poor old Uncle Hornby: Trying so hard to be "modern" but doing it in his own stuffy old way, not getting it right a lot of the time and falling out with his best friends.

 

Edited April 28, 2021 by Harlequin

[Michael Hodgson]

18 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

I do believe that the Courts will uphold the law. And, happily, the postmasters did finally get a result of sorts.

 

Not before some of them were sent to gaol for non-existent fraud, even more of them lost their livelihoods and reputation, obliged to sell their houses, or had their marriages broken up.  Many more no doubt gave up the fight because they couldn't afford the legal costs.  I haven't heard any mention of the impact on their mental health, but any direct connection might be difficult to prove in court.  It has taken over 20 years for the courts to recognise that the Post Office's computer system was defective.  Justice delayed is justice denied.

 

Perhaps my view of the legal system does appear jaundiced to some.  In 2017 I put a large amount of my pension money into a house, the transaction was arranged through a solicitor and the money went via his clients account to the vendors, but the lawyer did not get my name recorded on the title at the Land Registry.  After a great deal of correspondence, I had to go to the Legal Ombudsman to get this rectified, and it has taken until yesterday before I finally got a copy of the title.

[The Stationmaster]

59 minutes ago, john new said:

At the risk of going off topic it is not just the model trade that are delaying items. An e-book I have on Kindle pre-order was, IIRC, initially due out in March, two delay dates given and not met during April (the 2nd one was for today) and it is now again delayed for a release on 5th May. Turbulent times and not only physical products getting delayed although with e-books it is possible the e-releases are being delayed so as to marry up with physical copies being available. [printed overseas - container stuck in transit on a ship?]

Delays are one thing  John - we might not like them but we usually tolerate them especially if they are suitably explained to us.  But something delayed is not the same as something which turns into nothing at all when we'd placed, and had accepted,  an order for it it.   The relevant old saying was 'better late than never' but what we are seeing in this thread is instances of the 'never'.

[adb968008]

On 25/04/2021 at 10:40, The Stationmaster said:

 

 

So if supplies are 'resilient' (in Q4) and 'both Hornby and our suppliers have been operating more effectively through the current restrictions' why is there an apparent inability to satisfy orders placed, no doubt in good faith, by retailers?  Comes back to the central question if supplies are 'resilient' - did Hornby oversell when taking their trade orders or is something else going on?  

It could be retailers over ordering ?

 

Last year a high profile retailer was dropped, presumably hundreds of customers were left scrambling around hundreds of shops to find a replacement.

 

so...

 

if 1 customer contacts 3 shops pre-ordering a model....

if 3 shops then think they will just +1 to their order...

Hornby has  -1 from the dropped retailer, but recieves +3 new orders.. their order book just increased +2.

 

thats academic, maybe another scenario is...

 

if 500 customers divide their orders between just 20 new shops pre-ordering...

 

if those 20 shops think this is the start of a trend shift and + 25 to their orders and add another +15 to be safe, have stock and have maybe cash in on ebay...

 

Hornby has -500 from 1 retailer but that order book just got +800 orders.

Hornby doesnt give model railways to a wholesaler either any more.

And confidence/supply seems to be hitting a third major retailer.

1. customers start panicking

2. retailers could be cashing in

3. the supply just isnt there

4. quite possibly the demand is artificial.

 

What could happen is stuff lands, RRP + a ebay premium results. Some customers get lucky, others shrug shoulders.

 

case in point.. LMR 3rd coach last christmas...

Hundreds sold at 2x RRP to an ebay retailer, even before it was released... a month later you couldnt give them away.

 

The problem in our hobby is models are fashion.. once the next blockbuster comes, the last one lingers.. 

 

Smaller Retailers have had a lean decade, they may now be gorging and at risk of getting fat around the middle.

 

5. Customer’s too could be getting too jumpy, and multiple ordering from multiple retailers only to cancel from one retailer if they get it from another, or play ebay themselves.

 

6. lancing the boil of pre-orders is only fanning the consumer flames.

 

Theres so many new models coming across OO this summer.

 

 It could get ugly for retailers who hold too much stock in high expectation. I just hope several manufacturers dont start shipping, just as the borders open and everyone flocks to the beach.

 

I think this is a bubble effect.

 

Edited April 29, 2021 by adb968008

[GWR-fan]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

..................................................Obviously Hornby do not necessarily need to make any sort of statement to customers - that is wholly their prerogative.  .....................................

 

 

 

That may well be true for a new start up company,  however, Hornby was more than happy to recently celebrate its 100th anniversary,  a company built on the goodwill of its customers.  It seems that a new management broom is sweeping through the office as it did in an illfated way some years ago when retailers were forbidden to grey export Hornby products outside of the UK.  That really backfired and showed that without its retailer and customer base Hornby is on a razor's edge for survival.  Hornby cannot survive on purely direct selling from its website as its current mongrel marketing behaviour has created too many dissidents who now realise that model railway items do not only come in red boxes.

 

[Joseph_Pestell]

I am currently trying to set up a new business in France. Ideally, it will stock some Hornby group products.

 

But it may not. Hornby have stopped supplying UK wholesalers that I could have gone to.

 

No way will I deal with Hornby France.

[Michael Hodgson]

15 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

No way will I deal with Hornby France.

What have you got against them?

 

Surely if you're in business in France you'll have less trouble with if you deal with somebody who understands the local rules on TVA and saves you whatever red tape & hassle that Brexit is causing at the border?

[ruggedpeak]

1 hour ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Perhaps my view of the legal system does appear jaundiced to some.

Pretty much spot to anyone who has dealt with it.

[Joseph_Pestell]

1 hour ago, Michael Hodgson said:

What have you got against them?

 

Surely if you're in business in France you'll have less trouble with if you deal with somebody who understands the local rules on TVA and saves you whatever red tape & hassle that Brexit is causing at the border?

 

The Hornby France MD has something of a track record. Not retailer friendly.

[woodenhead]

1 minute ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

The Hornby France MD has something of a track record. Not retailer friendly.

Given the subject matter in this topic, you think Hornby UK are going to be any different? 

[john new]

2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Delays are one thing  John - we might not like them but we usually tolerate them especially if they are suitably explained to us.  But something delayed is not the same as something which turns into nothing at all when we'd placed, and had accepted,  an order for it it.   The relevant old saying was 'better late than never' but what we are seeing in this thread is instances of the 'never'.

I agree Hattons cancelled, so not the same as just a delay, but it was already 7 months from my placing the order and Hornby are still quoting a minimum of another 3 months on their own website. If it does ever turn up I will get one if possible but I’m not hopeful.

[Nile]

57 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

The Hornby France MD has something of a track record. Not retailer friendly.

I see a pattern here.

[Monkey28]

Do Hornby even have an MD in France ?

 

I thought everything was now based in Margate or Hersden

[Legend]

8 hours ago, GWR-fan said:

 

That may well be true for a new start up company,  however, Hornby was more than happy to recently celebrate its 100th anniversary,  a company built on the goodwill of its customers.  It seems that a new management broom is sweeping through the office as it did in an illfated way some years ago when retailers were forbidden to grey export Hornby products outside of the UK.  That really backfired and showed that without its retailer and customer base Hornby is on a razor's edge for survival.  Hornby cannot survive on purely direct selling from its website as its current mongrel marketing behaviour has created too many dissidents who now realise that model railway items do not only come in red boxes.

 

 And it rubbished the previous management  for alienating retailers and trying to sell direct............ Has the leopard changed its spots ?

Edited April 28, 2021 by Legend