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Hilux5972
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3 minutes ago, Hilux5972 said:

Surely paying Hornby directly the full RRP is better in the long term for them. 

Better for them maybe, but definitely to the detriment of small outlets, many of whom have supported Hornby through good and bad times over the years.

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2 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

 

But not for the retailer who many of us would like to remain viable so we can buy all the stuff Hornby don't sell.

And have access to the value added retailer services that Hornby don't provide.

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1 minute ago, AY Mod said:

 

But not for the retailer who many of us would like to remain viable so we can buy all the stuff Hornby don't sell.

Yes agreed but I don’t know of any model shop that solely sells one manufacturer.

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2 minutes ago, Free At Last said:

Glad you are enjoying it.
I like to support my local shop which also happens to be Hattons.
Why are you not supporting your local retailer?
 

Several reasons. Main one being price. It’s cheaper for me to buy direct from Hornby, get it shipped down here to New Zealand, pay taxes etc, than it is for me to drive 2 hours to my local model shop and then pay their prices.  

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14 minutes ago, Hilux5972 said:

Several reasons. Main one being price. It’s cheaper for me to buy direct from Hornby, get it shipped down here to New Zealand, pay taxes etc, than it is for me to drive 2 hours to my local model shop and then pay their prices.  

 

In my case, its cheaper for me to order from a UK retail shop and have it shipped to France than buy from direct (no discount) and have them ship it to France (normally more expensive than the retailers I use).

 

In principle, Even though I am at distance, I prefer supporting retailers so that they are there when I visit the UK. 

 

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37 minutes ago, Hilux5972 said:

It’s cheaper for me to buy direct from Hornby, get it shipped down here to New Zealand, pay taxes etc,

 

But probably dearer than buying from a stockist with their discounts applied who are just as able to send it to you.

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52 minutes ago, Hilux5972 said:

Yes agreed but I don’t know of any model shop that solely sells one manufacturer.

Which is of course exactly the point - the retailers sell products from more than one manufacturer hence I don't have to go to different places to buy different things (other than various specialised items).   It might well be that, for example, you are a happy to use Hornby track but if you happen to use Peco track you certainly aren't going to get that from Hornby so you have to go to a retailer anyway.

 

Moreover if you do deal with retailers for mail order/online sales various of them seem to be far better organised for both UK and international sales/despatch than Hornby (see the comment about VAT deduction above).   There are various other well known retailers apart from Hattons  and some of them have excellent reputations for this method of supply and  appear to suffer far less from cancellations of Hornby stock than this thread is suggesting is the case with Hattons.

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58 minutes ago, Hilux5972 said:

Yes agreed but I don’t know of any model shop that solely sells one manufacturer.

But Hornby is a major part of the stock of many shops. Losing what could be 25% of stock/sales for a small business could be devastating. Hornby is the biggest name in the business so a potential nightmare for model rail shops.

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1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

Which is of course exactly the point - the retailers sell products from more than one manufacturer hence I don't have to go to different places to buy different things (other than various specialised items).   It might well be that, for example, you are a happy to use Hornby track but if you happen to use Peco track you certainly aren't going to get that from Hornby so you have to go to a retailer anyway.

 

Moreover if you do deal with retailers for mail order/online sales various of them seem to be far better organised for both UK and international sales/despatch than Hornby (see the comment about VAT deduction above).   There are various other well known retailers apart from Hattons  and some of them have excellent reputations for this method of supply and  appear to suffer far less from cancellations of Hornby stock than this thread is suggesting is the case with Hattons.

 

What I don't like is being spun a line .  They rubbished the previous management , who had made strides to sell direct , said they were supporting their retailers and now we have this.  And its not just Hattons . Other model shops are reporting same , notably Trains4U and Great Eastern Models , Durham Trains of Stanley who are reporting their orders (their customers pre orders) cancelled .   Really if this was your company , would you run it this way?   Clearly they are re orientating themselves to selling more direct . The job advert just reinforces this , they are just being less than frank with us. It doesn't appear to have been well thought out , more an ad - hoc approach , otherwise why accept these retailers orders in the first place . This should have been thought out by 5th January 2021.   I had to laugh getting an email about Mk3 DVT now available to order at Hornby or your local stockist ............aye right , probably cutting that stockists orders even as we speak.

 

Why does it matter?  Well I bet its important to the finances of independent retailers , many of whom are struggling out of covid . Timing on this is crap.   And I know it . I live around Glasgow where there isn't a proper big model shop any more .  Hattons and Rails are my locals. 

 

As to folk ordering direct from Hornby . Well yes its understandable to secure the model you want , but I really hate rewarding what to me looks like "sharp" practice , and I'd say cancelling retailers orders and selling it for more yourself  at short notice qualifies!

 

You know if you stand back from this  there was the Rails Terrier where Hornby had a new model under development before announcement , then there was the Cavalex 91 , where they'd been working on models long before announcement , then the peculiarly similar generic coaches that they were working on before Hattons announced. hmm this doesnt seem like a terribly ethical trend 

Edited by Legend
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23 minutes ago, Legend said:

 

What I don't like is being spun a line .  They rubbished the previous management , who had made strides to sell direct , said they were supporting their retailers and now we have this. 


And here is where we have a disconnect, the management that rubbished the previous management are themselves previous management.

 

The board has largely (if not completely) changed again since the “great reversal” on the 6th December 2016.

 

I don’t believe there is much, if any collectively retained experience or memory of the actions of the 2012-2016 board and their consequences.

Edited by Trains4U
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29 minutes ago, Legend said:

As to folk ordering direct from Hornby . Well yes its understandable to secure the model you want , but I really hate rewarding what to me looks like "sharp" practice , and I'd say cancelling retailers orders and selling it for more yourself  at short notice qualifies!

 

You know if you stand back from this  there was the Rails Terrier where Hornby had a new model under development before announcement , then there was the Cavalex 91 , where they'd been working on models long before announcement , then the peculiarly similar generic coaches that they were working on before Hattons announced. hmm this doesnt seem like a terribly ethical trend 

It's difficult to say whether it is sharp practice and unethical or a natural progression in line with the rest of the high street.

 

Whilst we are looking at this from a retailer perspective, perhaps we are seeing only one side of the story. 

 

Traditional model railway shops are now few and far between and popping out into town on a Saturday to the local shop to see what they have is gone.  What has replaced this and the pandemic has probably exacerbated it, are shops that act local but are anything but - Rails, Hattons, Trains4U, Model Railways Direct, Kernow and more will do more business by mail order than by people walking in I would imagine.  The argument for retailers has always been so that you can pop into your local shop and see a model, but that isn't the case so much now, Hornby see that and realise that if the shops are mainly online sales then they are simply doing something that Hornby can replicate and take a larger slice of profit.  Also they potentially see how the retail network is shrinking to an ever smaller number of shops mostly with online presence and they can see how other manufacturers are selling direct first, Hornby may feel they need to adapt now before the retail network shrinks further - although to me the act of moving to direct sales would only hasten any reductions in the numbers of retailers whilst in doing so proving Hornby right.

 

I don't think Hornby will move to a completely online direct selling model, but I think perhaps the model numbers they supply to retailers may be restricted prior to launch and then it's a free for all to purchase any in stock items from the warehouse post launch.

 

Hornby may be acting now to stem what they perceive as a future threat to profitability, they are just not announcing it as they don't want to viewed like the bank who closes the last branch in a village.

 

And I may be completely wrong, but it's just my opinion.

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31 minutes ago, Trains4U said:


And here is where we have a disconnect, the management that rubbished the previous management are themselves previous management.

 

The board has largely (if not completely) changed again since the “great reversal” on the 6th December 2016.

 

I don’t believe there is much, if any collectively retained experience or memory of the actions of the 2012-2016 board and their consequences.

 

Interesting Gareth . I don't keep up on the board announcements , I tend to think of Mgt as Lyndon Davies and Simon Kohler  who certainly made a big thing about  supporting retailers and generally questioning actions that went on during what SK call his "Sabbatical"

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2 hours ago, Hilux5972 said:

Surely paying Hornby directly the full RRP is better in the long term for them. 

I honestly don't think Hornby have will have a long term future if they don't recognize and support the retail trade.

 

The hobby has been nurtured by the retail trade where we have learnt what else we need to go with the shiny new loco we have been looking at for weeks in the shop window. Hornby aren't going to be able to sell the complete package online - they need the shop window, the retailer and all of the other trades that make this hobby what it is.

 

Hornby need the hobby more than the hobby needs Hornby. I have said it before on this thread but there is nothing in the Hornby catalogue that I need. 

I wager this is true for more of the market than Hornby might like to believe. If Hornby dont support the model shops I will simply not be buying Hornby. 

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17 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

.

Traditional model railway shops are now few and far between and popping out into town on a Saturday to the local shop to see what they have is gone.  W

You paint to bleak a picture here. Within a 30 mile radius of my home I can think of 4 town centre model shops plus another 4 model railway outlets (shops on heritage railways) all of which I buy from regularly. Setting aside the pandemic and its affects all remain in business and I intend to buy from each of them other the coming months. There is undoubtedly a significant place for online selling but it is a mixed economy and as per my previous post, Hornby need the retail trade for long term sustainability. 

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23 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

IWhat has replaced this and the pandemic has probably exacerbated it, are shops that act local but are anything but - Rails, Hattons, Trains4U, Model Railways Direct, Kernow and more will do more business by mail order than by people walking in I would imagine. 


I can't speak for the others, but Trains4U is a destination model shop, not a box shifter and mail order is a surprisingly small part of our business.

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1 minute ago, Trains4U said:


I can't speak for the others, but Trains4U is a destination model shop, not a box shifter and mail order is a surprisingly small part of our business.

Sorry, wasn't specifically calling you a box shifter, but you're one of the more well known outlets.

 

But if you look at the past 12 months with all the time the shops were physically shut, business kept flowing via mail order and click and collect as well - being inside the shop wasn't always a part of that.  The pandemic forced a shift, if that shift was perceived by Hornby as a paradigm one, they may now be acting upon it for their own benefit especially if they suspect a few of the smaller outlets may struggle on the other side of the lockdowns.

 

I rarely visit a model shop now, I live in Manchester, there are some shops nearby, I wouldn't bother driving down to Hattons and Rails is a trek over the Peak district.  The only shop I liked to visit was Arcadia in Shaw, I would do that when my work took me over that side of Manchester, I simply don't have the time to make a trip to a model shop mostly.

 

I understand though the importance of having physical shops, would prefer to order from them, where else do I get everything under one roof - I cannot imagine Peco for example relishing the idea of doing all their sales through their website direct.

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The Pandemic did cause a paradigm shift in online ordering.
One could be fooled into thinking that there is a big market to be tapped, and that if this is the new normal, then online retail is the way to go.

However...

Since lockdown eased, my online sales have dropped back to pre-lockdown levels, but walk-in trade is doubled.  The "New Normal" is not the new normal at all.     There is currently a very different pattern of trade, a much more local pattern.

If "Other online platforms" are seeing the same effect, then they may have a bit of a shock in the coming months if their trade has also dried up, especially if they have invested heavily and gambled on the post-pandemic world being an online one.

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12 minutes ago, Trains4U said:

The Pandemic did cause a paradigm shift in online ordering.
One could be fooled into thinking that there is a big market to be tapped, and that if this is the new normal, then online retail is the way to go.

However...

Since lockdown eased, my online sales have dropped back to pre-lockdown levels, but walk-in trade is doubled.  The "New Normal" is not the new normal at all.     There is currently a very different pattern of trade, a much more local pattern.

If "Other online platforms" are seeing the same effect, then they may have a bit of a shock in the coming months if their trade has also dried up, especially if they have invested heavily and gambled on the post-pandemic world being an online one.

Two weeks ago, I took a trip into Central Manchester - not been in years, I simply don't want to shop there - but I wanted some jeans and I like gap jeans and the only local store is in Manchester.  There is no way I was chancing jeans online, my pre-pandemic shape is different to the post pandemic one, I wanted to try on.

 

Primark shut their doors in lockdown, no online presence and they too are reporting excellent business since re-opening.

 

So you're right, when forced to do so people will 'choose' online, when they have a choice they will make a knowledgeable decision whether to continue that way or go back in store.

 

Hornby appear to have siezed upon the paradigm shift and are forcing people to continue to 'choose' online by restricting product to retailers - they clearly like the shift and want it to continue.

 

Just because the old way of doing things is back doesn't mean the market cannot be manipulated still.

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27 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

Just because the old way of doing things is back doesn't mean the market cannot be manipulated still.


I agree.  However, there is a cost in doing this in terms of trust and perception as a supplier.    If a supplier is perceived as risky, dare I say, unreliable, then customers will naturally look to reduce exposure to that risk.   

There is a much, much bigger picture here than just the shiny new-release trains.   There are lots of manufacturers, especially of paint, plastic kits, slot cars, track, scenic materials and control systems as well as rolling stock who are almost literally falling over themselves to sell stuff to the retail trade and grow their market share.   

If Hornby make it hard to spend money with them, or start upsetting their loyal retail customers (And most of us genuinely are loyal), they run the risk of the retailers actively diversifying and consequently of Hornby losing a proportion of the overall business, especially for consumables and replenishment spend.   

 

Surely that risk must be recognised in the context of the broader income stream for Hornby?

(I ask this, as it feels as though it really isn't)
 

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1 hour ago, woodenhead said:

Sorry, wasn't specifically calling you a box shifter, but you're one of the more well known outlets.

 

But if you look at the past 12 months with all the time the shops were physically shut, business kept flowing via mail order and click and collect as well - being inside the shop wasn't always a part of that.  The pandemic forced a shift, if that shift was perceived by Hornby as a paradigm one, they may now be acting upon it for their own benefit especially if they suspect a few of the smaller outlets may struggle on the other side of the lockdowns.

 

I rarely visit a model shop now, I live in Manchester, there are some shops nearby, I wouldn't bother driving down to Hattons and Rails is a trek over the Peak district.  The only shop I liked to visit was Arcadia in Shaw, I would do that when my work took me over that side of Manchester, I simply don't have the time to make a trip to a model shop mostly.

 

I understand though the importance of having physical shops, would prefer to order from them, where else do I get everything under one roof - I cannot imagine Peco for example relishing the idea of doing all their sales through their website direct.

 

Have you looked at visiting the Locoshed on the Prestwich/Besses oth Barn border not far from the motorway jct. Also within walking distance from the Metrolink stop at Besses.  Plus I believe there is a good model shop in Bolton.

Edited by johnd
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1 minute ago, Trains4U said:

If Hornby make it hard to spend money with them, or start upsetting their loyal retail customers (And most of us genuinely are), they run the risk of the retailers actively diversifying and consequently of Hornby losing a proportion of the overall business, especially for consumables and replenishment spend.   Surely that risk must be recognised in the context of the broader income stream for Hornby?
 

It is interesting when you look at some of the items that appear in shops that you'd associate with being 'model train' shops and it is clear that some of this has been forced on the shops (to the benefit of others who want these items).  As they shed custom with Bachmann and Hornby, Hattons and Rails have diversified as you've done and will live on, it is the smaller shops that will struggle and perhaps we don't yet know what the future holds for them as the pandemic lifts.  But Bachmann though have not left the retail side and Accurascale have opened wholesale agreements with shops, Heljan clearly seek a higher market share and Dapol whilst selling directly have not left wholesaling, there is also CavAlex, Realtrack and RevolutioN.

 

I don't think Hornby will step away from using retailers, where else will all the unsold stock go, it cannot sit in their warehouses gathering dust, but I think they want a bigger slice of the new stuff as it arrives to get as much as they can at the initial launch and reduce the risk associated with any product launch.  It's clearly a big money grab.

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1 minute ago, johnd said:

 

Have you looked at visiting the Locoshed on the Prestwich/Besses oth Barn border not far from the motorway jct. Plus I believe there is a good model shop in Bolton.

There is also Waltons in Altrincham, but parking is a mare.

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