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Have recently been through this exercise. After the issues with the Stephenson's Rocket Carriage when it came to placing preorders I sat for a long time trying to figure out who would be the best Dealer to place my order with. Obviously probably not their fault but Hattons were firmly off that list. I am probably not the only one doing that exercise. When I read on another forum about a Dealer cancelling someone's order for the Duchess of Atholl and then trying to sell the said item on EBay for an inflated price. They too were off my list for anything. 

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9 minutes ago, SteamingWales said:

Had my Clan cancelled too.

 

Will probably buy another Manor instead now rather than get a Clan

That is indeed my plan.

Accurascale who are now doing steam locomotives will now get the lion's share of my yearly spend.

The Dapol Manor is also looking good.

One of each I think.

Edited by Black 5 Bear
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i noticed in early Jan Hattons were accepting unlimited orders on some of the 2021 range.

 

Sadly I called this on Jan 12th, and @Steamport Southport called bs on me.

 

its here...

And verified here

 



whether that was by accident or design, I do not know.

it could be they were just soaking up as much demand as they could, in absence of a known total or to stress competitors demand and hence grab a better final total share for themselves, or simply they just didnt put an upper limit to orders by mistake... I dont know..

 

But ..

 

Today is obviously the tidy up, and now the scramble starts.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by adb968008
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55 minutes ago, SteamingWales said:

Had my Clan cancelled too.

 

Will probably buy another Manor instead now rather than get a Clan

Funnily enough I’ve just used some of the Clan-cancellation-saving on a second hand County 4-6-0 (from Hattons)

 

given I model the Northants GC, and it was County of Northants, it seemed like a sign....

Edited by Helmdon
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I'll say this, as I had asked Hattons about this (thankfully I didn't order from them this year). They said some items they are only receiving 29% of what they ordered from Hornby, but would not go in detail. That's all I know, don't ask me anything else.

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9 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

i noticed in early Jan Hattons were accepting unlimited orders on some of the 2021 range.

 

Sadly I called this on Jan 12th, and @Steamport Southport called bs on me.

 

its here...

And verified here

 



whether that was by accident or design, I do not know.

it could be they were just soaking up as much demand as they could, in absence of a known total or to stress competitors demand and hence grab a better final total share for themselves, or simply they just didnt put an upper limit to orders by mistake... I dont know..

 

But ..

 

Today is obviously the tidy up, and now the scramble starts.

 

 

 

I called BS on you being able to add more than a certain amount of items to your basket and then pay for them.

 

You were making out that you could add 500 to your basket by showing a screenshot of items in your basket. You can, until you need to pay for it. It gets refused when you go to the next page.

 

Somehow I doubt you tried that.

 

 

I wasn't commenting on whether Hattons would fulfil orders or not. That is irrelevant to me.

 

 

But I fail to see why I'm being dragged into this conversation....

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38 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

I called BS on you being able to add more than a certain amount of items to your basket and then pay for them.

 

You were making out that you could add 500 to your basket by showing a screenshot of items in your basket. You can, until you need to pay for it. It gets refused when you go to the next page.

 

Somehow I doubt you tried that.

You don't pay in advance for pre-orders.

There is no risk.

i know, because I did, not a £70k order, but a cheap kit, I just ordered 1 more than they had, and thats how I found the issue in their order system, and found a loop hole too (it still exists tonight too).


That is why I posted, using the extreme example, before your repost, and demonstrated it after your post, and also have shown in the 66 thread on two occasions.

 

And hence why I am pointing it out once more.

 

There was an issue on Hattons site quantities in January, you didnt believe it, and still dont, fair enough, some will never be convinced.

I did note the BR Green Bulleid allowed unlimited orders, the Malachite one did not. There were other examples, inc the RCS coaches... those orders got cancelled early on too.

 

However this thread, is in my opinion, the result of what I saw and called out last month.

 

Thing is.. now for many people they miss out, on pre-orders they thought were sound,having to find another retailer if its not sold out already, for no fault of their own.

 

Sadly to me it did not come as a surprise, indeed I was careful about pre-orders specifically expecting it,  what makes it frustrating is I did try to warn, only to be shot down, then and still now.

 

Edited by adb968008
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This is doing Hattons reputation damage . 
 

Why would you pre order from them next year when there is a danger the order will be unfulfilled . It does seem that other retailers. Kernow, Derails are not affected .  Maybe they have policies not to sell to max allocation , we don’t know , but it does appear they are a safer pair of hands 

 

I do wonder if Hornby aren’t re- emphasising selling direct , there is a reference to it in their trading statement . It appears the previous management  may have got that right but were unsubtle in their approach .  It is strange that Hattons , the biggest box shifter , is having issues and the second biggest one, Rails,  has already stopped selling Hornby .  A coincidence ?

 

Hornby should know what they are getting by way of stock . Presumably they order so many units from the factories they deal with and that's contractural .  It’s difficult to see where there should suddenly be a shortage . 

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3 hours ago, robf said:

For want of being shot down by admin again, I do find the automatic Hornby bashing quite interesting when funnily enough, no one seems to be mentioning Hornby pre-orders being cancelled by any other retailer.

 

I agree, and 'other retailers' in my limited experience take all or part payment with a pre-order and will refund all or part if a certain time typically 1 month elapses without the product arriving, it gives some safety to the retailer. This will be part of the terms of the pre-order.

 

You can pre-order with Hornby and pay nothing but you will pay full RRP eventually .

 

No free lunches. The sad thing is the cancellation of good faith pre-orders.    

 

Tough life for a retailer, and burned customers, and the large ones like Hattons appear to have fallen out somewhat with Hornby, given that they used to have bargaining 'clout'  as did Rails.  With Hornby now aiming at more direct selling no wonder....

 

I have found smaller sellers like TMC, Peter's Spares, AJM, Kernow (although these are not really small sellers) have been able to supply things , and if not, they simply will not take a pre-order. Or if under-supplied I'm not sure what they do..  AJM (I was told by Amanda) was eventually given two diecast Atholls for 15 pre-order requests, note,  she never guaranteed supply and she recommended I try elsewhere, which I did.

 

So I have accepted the supply-chain irregularities as a fact of life and now pay up front with pre-orders with a promise of refund if not delivered in a 'common sense' timeframe.

 

 

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17 minutes ago, Legend said:

This is doing Hattons reputation damage . 
 

Why would you pre order from them next year when there is a danger the order will be unfulfilled . It does seem that other retailers. Kernow, Derails are not affected .  Maybe they have policies not to sell to max allocation , we don’t know , but it does appear they are a safer pair of hands 

 

I do wonder if Hornby aren’t re- emphasising selling direct , there is a reference to it in their trading statement . It appears the previous management  may have got that right but were unsubtle in their approach .  It is strange that Hattons , the biggest box shifter , is having issues and the second biggest one, Rails,  has already stopped selling Hornby .  A coincidence ?

 

Hornby should know what they are getting by way of stock . Presumably they order so many units from the factories they deal with and that's contractural .  It’s difficult to see where there should suddenly be a shortage . 

 

My feeling is that Hattons and Rails have used their power in marketing and selling as a tool in negotiating terms which Hornby now refuse.  Hornby are now offering the same terms across the board to retailers. There may be a lot more to this than we will ever reliably know.

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How does it happen ?

 

let me try again...you cannot order more in your basket than they actually have...

working as designed...

 

For benefit of doubters... I have added the time stamp too..


6E2A3EC1-7B07-46EE-BD2A-9ACCFE5729DC.jpeg.f87244932fd2983320c8cc61e141c2a7.jpeg
 

 

 

 

added 1, updated to 5....

 

 

 

B573CAAF-C5C8-4630-985A-25505FEA1117.jpeg.45e7f2be988536bdd47d508e5a3a1b43.jpeg

 


 

 

it refuses because there is only 4....

 

1011A151-3F40-4100-80C0-9CB699347D3B.jpeg.259c8513fd589067555145e69ca1053b.jpeg


 

unless theres an issue with the stock available quantity...

 

(this was from Jan 2020, and was where I raised the flag).

 

460B5864-03A3-403A-9E08-E579B693EAA1.jpeg.21f5be231051afc8bae03107ce431368.jpeg

 

Note instead of saying “more than 10 available” it simply says “on order”.
 

It will accept it, I have done it three times this year, most recently was 2 days ago... in that instance someone else nabbed it, as they had to refund me and there was only 1 left... but 2 of us must have bought it.


 

I will add there is a loop hole, that those who had orders affected that they might be able to get around, to someone else's pre-order detriment at time of arrival using Hattons site.. I will not however share it on here.

 

finally just to prove it works... there are 116 Pink class 66587’s listed available

 

5A8E9F28-6FED-43CD-B0C9-78189C08A916.jpeg.3ee2b39e47df1a0223005f578bc7e8dc.jpeg

 

because at 117 it trips out..back to 1 in my cart.

 

E0321377-FE87-413B-81B5-E5C3731BDF33.jpeg.28db4dbcfe02b8838f877d651ebab4cc.jpeg


 

 

Hornby might have reduced their allocation, but there was only 500 Bulleids being made globally, to begin with.

 

I am convinced there was an error, by design or mistake when the 2021 range was listed on their site initially! And my gut feeling then, was this thread would be inevitable at some point.

 

I should add.. it is better theyve adjusted it now, than after they arrive..

 

checking tonight pre-order totals are now updated, so assume its resolved.

 

 

Edited by adb968008
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7 hours ago, Free At Last said:

Just had the cancellation email.
Well that's my Winter Fuel Payment saved. I was only buying the P2 on a whim anyway. I would not purchase from Hornby Direct, not that my decision will affect them.

Or maybe spend it on your fuel bill as intended?

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Oddly my email stated they CAN supply the W1 late crest, but the 2 Tri-Ang containers I ordered have been cancelled. No mention of the 2 20T Esso tankers on the same pre-order.

 The conflat cancellation is a pest as I do like Hattons trunk system, as far as I know no-one else offers a comparable service. It is ideal for bulking up small item orders and saving on postage.

Cheers from Oz,

Peter C.

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17 hours ago, robf said:

For want of being shot down by admin again, I do find the automatic Hornby bashing quite interesting when funnily enough, no one seems to be mentioning Hornby pre-orders being cancelled by any other retailer.

I have had Hornby pre-orders delayed for over a year with a 'local' retailer because of rationing when I could in the meantime have bought what I had on pre-order from another source - including people selling friom their front rooms or garden sheds.  So it very definitely isn't just Hattons but I expect Hattons could figure more frequently because those looking for the lowest price tend to shop there, or somewhere similar, and those retailers order and sell in much larger volume.  If somebody ordering, say 20 locos has pre-orders for 18 of them and Hornby cut his allocation by, say, 50% that person will have 8 disappointed customers but if you multiply those numbers by 10 there will be lots more disappointed customers.

 

Maybe some of the big boys take excess pre-orders and hope they'll be supplied or maybe they don't but there is no evidence of that in the public arena.  However there is very firm evidence that Hornby apply rationing and cut back what retailers - of all sizes - have ordered from them.  Whether or not their algorithim or whatever picks on certain retailers I haven't got the faintest idea but even if they apply a consistent rate of rationing across all their retailers it is going to be more noticeable with the bigger ones.   Similarly because certain very large retailers get more pre-orders than anyone else then it logically fits that smaller retailers might be able to supply in the event of rationing - but they won't know until they get what they have ordered from Hornby.

 

If Hornby are operating a policy of cutting back orders disproportionately for certain retailers they could potentially be accused, rightly or wrongly, of operating a restrictive trade practice so I seriously wonder if they would do that?

 

As for other manufacturers and commissioners I have never suffered with any of them the sort of rationing and major delay to a pre-order which has happened with Hornby.    Hornby do seem to have some particular problems of their own with the long established Year 2 syndrome, growing stocks (by value on the balance sheet) of unsold models, and occasional rationing of new introductions.  Perhaps they have a problem working out exactly what the level of demand will be for any particular model - not that it would be an easy task but with a massive range it is going to be more difficult I would imagine.

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17 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Snip

 

I've been waiting for a Bachmann model for over a year. I think the quantity that manufacturers produce is based on the cost of a production run, market demand is obviously a consideration but I would have thought that is very difficult to predict with absolute certainty.

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I do wonder if it could be anti competitive if Hornby was keeping back models to retailers to ensure it has enough to sell direct? But the only people with the figure to prove it are Hornby them selves. 

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I too have had to switch retailer for my Clan order and BR crimson gangwayed ex SR bogie vans. I suspect the problem is due to Hornby announcing models later in the development cycle than other manufacturers. When a model is announced by Hornby  they will already have an agreed production run with the manufacturer. What we are probably seeing now is the effect of Hornby balancing retailer orders against the production level, where models have proved more popular than expected. We're only 5 weeks after the 2021 products announcement and the retail orders probably took until end of a January to get submitted, particularly in these difficult times. What we are probably now seeing is where some product retail orders have exceeded booked production and Hornby have had to adjust down retail orders.

This is unfortunately going to happen where the supplier notifies new products close to production. Where you notify at an earlier part of the development cycle  the production level is yet to be finalised. We may find a similar issue with Bachmann new products in the future, as they are now committed to producing closer to announcement. It will be interesting to see what happens with the newly announced Bachmann Class 20, announced in early Feb, for delivery in Spring/Summer this year.

This doesn't absolve Hornby, as clearly the Clan was going to be popular, as it hasn't been made in many versions and not at all for some 10 years, and they may miss out on a buoyant demand.

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6 hours ago, 45568 said:

Oddly my email stated they CAN supply the W1 late crest, but the 2 Tri-Ang containers I ordered have been cancelled. No mention of the 2 20T Esso tankers on the same pre-order.

 The conflat cancellation is a pest as I do like Hattons trunk system, as far as I know no-one else offers a comparable service. It is ideal for bulking up small item orders and saving on postage.

Cheers from Oz,

Peter C.

I have just checked my preorders, I ordered the Triang containers on 06/01/21. That was quick by my standard, so who got in before me? Hint: we are 8 hours ahead UK time.

Peter C.

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You know this is really not difficult in the 21st century . Hornby agree a production batch with their supplier . They deduct a certain % for rejects then offer them to retailers but they must know what the upper level of orders they can receive is . If they want to sell direct take 20/30/40% whatever off the total to be offered to retailers .

 

But clearly something is going wrong . Hattons could suffer disproportionately because they are the biggest , but it is odd we are not hearing pre orders are not honoured elsewhere . So this initially appears like a Hornby/Hattons issue . Could it be the Hattons site allows orders beyond what they are allocated ie no top level . But really it’s not rocket science  and someone needs to sort this .  Its not doing Hornby or Hattons reputations any good , but of the two of them Id say its Hattons reputation thats getting hammered most. 

Edited by Legend
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Clan seems to be available at plenty of other retailers.

tbh I think its desirability is over estimated..

Sure theres some who have not, but are the “haves” really going to have more ?

 

There was only 10 of em, if you have 2 already, is 4 not disproportionate ?

 

I recently downsized to 3 Brittanias, as i’m realistically never going to run more than that.. with 2 clans already, 3 would be overkill.

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