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18 hours ago, Graham_Muz said:


Other retailers are available…

Exactly so _ i have very rarely bought from Hattons and only then something which was not available elsewhere because it was a special order/commission from them to a manufacturer.  I normally buy from either of my 'local' model shops although due to a mixture of Covid and its impact on train services I have been nowhere near one of them for over a year - but that one has an excellent mail order service which I have used again very recently.

 

I have suffered in the past with my most immediately 'local' model shop earlier examples of Hornby's rationing process although the goods have always arrived eventually - even when;'eventually' meant 18 months after 'sole traders from their living rooms' had oroginally been getting supplies from Hornby's trade wholesaler.   The whole Hornby system of rationing - with or without Tiers - looks remarkably like a past problem that has leapt back with a vengeance and additionally leaving a very sour taste in the mouths of some retailers.  So is the cause this time round the same as it was previously - abysmal marketing unable to properly forecast demand and order the necessary quantities of stock to meet anticipated retailer orders?

 

If you are going to employ remote manufacture where you as a 'manufacturer' have to place your factory orders before you announce your models and before you take your trade orders it would seem to me to be an extremely simple matter to not sell (to retailers) any more items than you have ordered.  Perhaps not quite so simple to anticipate demand but surely if you have a good knowledge of your custmer base with market intelligence also from your reps and previous levels of trade sales it's not the most difficult job in the world to work out that some things will sell like hot cakes while some others won't.  But equally you then also have to avoid the Year 2 trap which Hornby still seems to fall into with apparent ease if  some retail prices, plus the long term warehouse stock value, are any guicde at all.    Far better maybe to get your own marketing in order than go round kicking retailers?  Perhaps a lot more sensible too to get away from the outmoded nonsense of an annual announcement of your range for the coming year which has become increasingly meaningless due to supply problems and must create some otherwise peaking in various parts of your marketing and sales processes?

Edited by The Stationmaster
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57 minutes ago, CUCKOO LINE said:

But its not obvious that Hattons are selling for less than others that seem unaffected. Rails were offering free postage with preorders which may have been seen as extra discount.

Agreed, it is a bit of a myth that Hattons sell at lower prices, if you shop around there are plenty of independents who have better prices on individual items, and some of whom have free postage etc. Hattons like Rails and some others used to or do have most or all of the range at the allowable discount, making shopping easier. But for the savvy shopper with a list and time to shop around there are often cheaper methods than buying from abox shifter.

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1 hour ago, Robin Brasher said:

................................................. When Simon Kohler gave our model railway club a talk he said that the discounts Hattons were giving were unsustainable and he seemed particularly disappointed about Hattons selling the new Pullmans for £25 each. If Hattons has paid Hornby for the models I don't know why Hornby should be worried about how much Hattons should sell them for.

 

When you are a manufacturer and have an online presence selling at full retail then any store selling below MSRP is competition to your online sales.   Any sale below MSRP impacts on your ability to sell at full retail.  By being able to guarantee supply,  even if at full retail price,  then you even out the competition by depriving the competition of stock or by severely limiting stock the competition has for sale.

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7 minutes ago, GWR-fan said:

 

When you are a manufacturer and have an online presence selling at full retail then any store selling below MSRP is competition to your online sales.   Any sale below MSRP impacts on your ability to sell at full retail.  By being able to guarantee supply,  even if at full retail price,  then you even out the competition by depriving the competition of stock or by severely limiting stock the competition has for sale.

I don't thing any one would not agree. However in this case Hornby seem to have changed horses in mid race so to speak and arrangements that people have traditionally relied on have broken down. In the absence of any explanation it looks to outsiders to be a way for Hornby to make some quick extra profit. Now in my book that is quick and dirty and not the manner in which the brand leader should operate. I am not in the habit of wishing any body ill, but in this case I do hope that Hornby come unstuck and soon return to the moral high ground. If they had announced before release that certain new models would only be available through retail outlets in limited quantities it would have been a very different matter. It might well be legal, but it is not the way I expect a good company to behave.

Bernard 

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4 minutes ago, Wessex20 said:

Looks like as Hornby is being removed simultaneously brand new Bachmann is being sold again by Hattons. 


Interesting, but Hattons are still not listed by Bachmann as an official stockist, and lots of those items are new old stock and haven't been available for a long time.   I wonder if another retailer has "Done a swap", or offloaded an excess of stock.   It's been done before.

Edited by Trains4U
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10 minutes ago, GWR-fan said:

 

When you are a manufacturer and have an online presence selling at full retail then any store selling below MSRP is competition to your online sales.   Any sale below MSRP impacts on your ability to sell at full retail.  By being able to guarantee supply,  even if at full retail price,  then you even out the competition by depriving the competition of stock or by severely limiting stock the competition has for sale.

Maybe - BUT Hornby allows all retailers to apply the same initial level of of retail discount to its models.  The discount retailers are allowed to give is exactly on a newly released model from 'Sid's Trains' down the road as it is for a mail order/online purchase from 'Mega-mail Trains' of wherever.  That restricted discount only applies for a certain length of time but inevitably with pre-orders that is the best level of discount you will get whoever you buy from, especially if you pre-order  (but I'm not sure how Amazon sales fit into that).  

 

So your point about discounts does not make sense in that respect because as long as any dealers offer discounts it will be cheaper to buy from them than from Hornby although some also offer free purchase on relatively small values of purchase and such thinsg as 'loyalty points' which  gradually allow you to build up some free credit to spend on many things they might sell.

 

Hattons is no longer an exceptionally deep discounter for the simple reason that Hrnby have in any cr case cut the level of trade discount for all thweir retail customers, have imposed an initial cap on discounting, and have also changed part of their payment terms which effectively offered a trade discount for rapid payment (whic wouldn't impact retail prices but would help profitability.

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59 minutes ago, MikeParkin65 said:

A bargain so long as Hornby aren’t trying to shift on some of the many substandard examples of these models. 


If you trawl through all 7 pages of Amazon’s Hornby section,you will see a number of other “keenly priced” items,such as new blue MN 35024 for example about which there is currently no judgement of ill repute unlike A2 60505 .Just what the h##l is going on here to spark this which really you can only see as another snipe at our retail trade ?

 

Are H that strapped for cash flow and is the current supply and distribution nightmare attributable at source in China ?

 

 

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I pre ordered a Hornby A2 from rails of Sheffield when they were announced. This got cancelled a long time ago due to their Hornby dispute, so this Amazon offer out of the blue at this late stage was just the job for me. However I agree strange retail practices are at play in our hobby. This will be perhaps one of my last OO locos as I concentrate on my American O gauge, mostly second hand these days from ebay, at less than new OO prices too. Lots of my purchases on ebay are from actual model shops who advertise there.

 

As a tribute to Hattons I ordered a Peco O point the other week. Delivered in a couple of days. Still a good company to deal with provided they have stock.

 

Brit15

 

 

Edited by APOLLO
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14 hours ago, Dominion said:

I see Amazon UK is selling Thane of Fife for 134-135 pounds. Earlier in this thread some people had their Thane of Fife Preorders cancelled at Hattons.  That seems like a poor distribution strategy to me. Tom

 

Now at GBP139.64 and 6 remaining.

 

A very curious and sad situation for retailers.

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I just checked when specifically I ordered the locos that were cancelled yesterday. There were actually 11.

All were ordered on the first day of announcement.

3 in 2020 by 11 am where I am, 4 pm in the UK. 

8 on the first day of announcement 2021 by 8 am, 1pm UK time.

So if Hattons are cancelling in sequence of preorder as they say, surely that means they are getting very very few models allocated to them.

 

One reason they have been great to deal with in the past is that you know if there is a problem with the loco they will accept a return and pay the return postage, which is significant for overseas customers. I almost always fix things myself and hardly ever send anything back. However, given the serious assembly issues with many of the A2/2s and A2/3s I wonder if Hattons have been correctly trying to hold Hornby responsible, and this has factored into what ever is going on now.

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1 hour ago, Trains4U said:


Interesting, but Hattons are still not listed by Bachmann as an official stockist, and lots of those items are new old stock and haven't been available for a long time.   I wonder if another retailer has "Done a swap", or offloaded an excess of stock.   It's been done before.

Low numbers of a lot of items plus also Oxford and Heljan items in similar volumes.

 

But no Farish, no-one leaves Farish on the shelves when they have stock to sell

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1 hour ago, GWR-fan said:

 

When you are a manufacturer and have an online presence selling at full retail then any store selling below MSRP is competition to your online sales.   Any sale below MSRP impacts on your ability to sell at full retail.  By being able to guarantee supply,  even if at full retail price,  then you even out the competition by depriving the competition of stock or by severely limiting stock the competition has for sale.

But Hattons et al are Hornby's customers, not their competition (by and large...) Sounds like resale price maintenance by stealth to me.

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1 hour ago, Wessex20 said:

Looks like as Hornby is being removed simultaneously brand new Bachmann is being sold again by Hattons. 

 

Before we getting into the Hattons are selling Bachmann again debate. It's surplus stock from another retailer.

 

I'm not going to name the retailer, but it's the same one as last time who Hattons periodically buy stock from.

 

 

 

Jason

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1 minute ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Before we getting into the Hattons are selling Bachmann again debate. It's surplus stock from another retailer.

 

I'm not going to name the retailer, but it's the same one as last time who Hattons periodically buy stock from.

 

Jason

The 'other' Sheffield based retailer?

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1 hour ago, Ian Hargrave said:


If you trawl through all 7 pages of Amazon’s Hornby section,you will see a number of other “keenly priced” items,such as new blue MN 35024 for example about which there is currently no judgement of ill repute unlike A2 60505 .Just what the h##l is going on here to spark this which really you can only see as another snipe at our retail trade ?

 

Are H that strapped for cash flow and is the current supply and distribution nightmare attributable at source in China ?

 

 

I find this whole thread quite dispiriting to be honest. I'm not interested in the various conspiracy theories and when you distill whats left here a lot of it isnt about railway modelling at all , its about collecting and trying to get the latest trophy at the lowest possible price.

 

I have nothing at all against collectors but prioritising short term gains, be that Hornby seeking to milk the market and snooker competitors , dealers trying to become the biggest fish in a very small pond or us seeking the lowest possible price to the detriment of our smaller retailers all  threaten to undermine the long term sustainability of the ready to run hobby.    

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5 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

The 'other' Sheffield based retailer?

 

You may well think that, but I can't possibly comment.....

 

 

My GWR Terrier pack was cancelled. I'm in two minds whether to bother trying to get another one. I was only interested in the loco and since I ordered it I've ended up with four Terriers. I could always just try and get another that matches and paint it green....

 

 

Jason

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1 hour ago, Ian Hargrave said:

If you trawl through all 7 pages of Amazon’s Hornby section,you will see a number of other “keenly priced” items,such as new blue MN 35024 for example about which there is currently no judgement of ill repute unlike A2 60505 .Just what the h##l is going on here to spark this which really you can only see as another snipe at our retail trade ?

Some very strange pricing on Amazon's Hornby section indeed.   An hour ago I snapped up an R4691 BR (LMR) suburban brake at 25.67GBP, (44% discount on 45.99GBP), with free postage, only 3 left.  I checked just now and it is now showing at 24.92GBP with only 2 remaining.

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16 minutes ago, cessna152towser said:

Some very strange pricing on Amazon's Hornby section indeed.   An hour ago I snapped up an R4691 BR (LMR) suburban brake at 25.67GBP, (44% discount on 45.99GBP), with free postage, only 3 left.  I checked just now and it is now showing at 24.92GBP with only 2 remaining.

That's fairly typical amazon pricing, had same when looking for books and dvds etc

Edited by CUCKOO LINE
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16 minutes ago, cessna152towser said:

Some very strange pricing on Amazon's Hornby section indeed.   An hour ago I snapped up an R4691 BR (LMR) suburban brake at 25.67GBP, (44% discount on 45.99GBP), with free postage, only 3 left.  I checked just now and it is now showing at 24.92GBP with only 2 remaining.

These have been £99.99 for 4 at Kernow for ages :)

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4 hours ago, CUCKOO LINE said:

It definitely could do with some investigative journalism but unless someone can get one of the tabloids involved I guess that is unlikely, but all in all seems to be a rather negative outcome for a Hornby that seems to have an upturn from lockdown

I suspect that any investigative journalism would be solely for the benefit of a jokey article about cardigan clad pensioners up in arms that their chuff chuffs have been cancelled

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The danger is are other retailers, with a strong on-line presence, facing Hornby new stock reductions, now or in the future. I and from messages on this forum, many others, have transferred their on line orders to Kernow Models, and potentially they are likely to now be the highest volume seller of Hornby products, outside of Hornby, via on line sales. They have recently opened a new processing warehouse, away from their shops. Are they likely to be the next in Hornby's firing line.

I won't buy from Hornby direct, while I like their products I have for a long while disagreed with their actions with their retailers. I was friends and customer for 30 years. with the owner of a model shop, who was a Hornby supplier and I know the stress he went through having to correct the many errors on his Hornby account, as well as their stock dumping practices. One of THE many issues was H failing to account for credit notes issued by them. He gave up the business as he was no longer willing to deal with H.

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22 minutes ago, andyman7 said:

I suspect that any investigative journalism would be solely for the benefit of a jokey article about cardigan clad pensioners up in arms that their chuff chuffs have been cancelled

 

Yeah you have to get it into context .

 

But in the context of model railways I'd say this is pretty big - so as enthusiasts we should not forget the actions of this company , especially after their next glitzy announcement in January , or an advert with  available to pre order at your local stockist - aye right! . Really what is the point of pre ordering . But its unlikely to make any paper- unless to draw ridicule. "Derailment on the nursery floor" I seem to recall was the Times article when Hornby Dublo went bust . 

Edited by Legend
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33 minutes ago, rembrow said:

The danger is are other retailers, with a strong on-line presence, facing Hornby new stock reductions, now or in the future. I and from messages on this forum, many others, have transferred their on line orders to Kernow Models, and potentially they are likely to now be the highest volume seller of Hornby products, outside of Hornby, via on line sales. They have recently opened a new processing warehouse, away from their shops. Are they likely to be the next in Hornby's firing line.

 

 

Let's not peddle such farcical unfounded and unwarranted theories...

Edited by Graham_Muz
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