Preorder email

[Legend]

3 minutes ago, Ouroborus said:

I fully agree, but its Hornby's products, Hornby's rules.  People won't stop buying Hornby products out of solidarity with Hattons.  Society doesn't work like that anymore.  Its all about the ME now.  Forget everyone and anything else, no matter who and what i have to trample over, I WILL get what I want.

 

Sadly I agree which is why Hattons must now take matters in own hands and expand their commissions , second hand , perhaps US 

[Ian Hargrave]

3 minutes ago, andyman7 said:

They are also a manufacturer (including a Terrier....) so presumably another clause was the issue there

 Sorry but you’ve caught the wrong bus here. Rails unilaterally terminated their Hornby dealings last August. Yes there had been well aired disagreement but that’s nothing whatsoever to do with any new system or conditions imposed by Hornby.They actually commission....in this case from Dapol and in others currently from Bachmann,Heljan and Rapido. They do not follow the Hattons example such as with the Class 66 

 

[ruggedpeak]

8 minutes ago, Ouroborus said:

I fully agree, but its Hornby's products, Hornby's rules.  People won't stop buying Hornby products out of solidarity with Hattons.  Society doesn't work like that anymore.  Its all about the ME now.  Forget everyone and anything else, no matter who and what i have to trample over, I WILL get what I want.

The issue discussed earlier in the thread is that post-COVID perhaps society has changed, perhaps not for Hattons but for smaller outfits.

[woodenhead]

7 minutes ago, Legend said:

 

Sadly I agree which is why Hattons must now take matters in own hands and expand their commissions , second hand , perhaps US 

I was watching a video recently and they were talking US outline, mainly from a secondhand perspective, but to me supplying UK modellers with US outline makes sense.  Good supply would also get more of us to move across the pond modelling wise.

 

Rails have already made that jump and are stocking a lot more US outline models now, taking up the space left by that old Sheffield shop MG Sharp.

[Cor-onGRT4]

I think Hornby has shoot himself in the foot with this action, i think many people lost trust in pre ordering Hornby, simply because you don't know to which catagory the shop belongs from who you ordering from and iff you ever get what you ordered for.

We now know Hattons is excluded, but who else is stated in list 3, and what criteria Hornby is using?

I did still had 10 pre orders standing at Hattons, all has been cancelled, managed to get two of them elswhere, and three of them i will try to get elswhere after releasing and still available, the others are not priority.

Nearly 90% of my buyings a year  are Hornby , about 2500,- pounds, but now 700,- pounds less. 

But there are upcomming manufactures/ comission players, who are producing very good items , Accurascale, Dapol , Hattons, and small players.

So Hornby is getting a lot competition, they should look out for this.

The pre orders that all has been cancelled by Hattons, caused by new rules from Hornby, are not only hurting Hattons customers but Hornby forgetting these Hattons customers are Hornby customers by way of Hattons.

Now i spend my left over money from Hornby cancellations on Hattons genesis coaches and Rails of Sheffield commisioned SR D class loco's.

So eventually Hornby is loosing profit instead of increasing profit.

Maybe many more people is reacting this way.

And for the record, I keep with Hattons, because i have very good experience over the last 15 years, and for non UK customers 

good shipping rates and the trunk option.

[Pre Grouping fan]

18 minutes ago, andyman7 said:

They are also a manufacturer (including a Terrier....) so presumably another clause was the issue there

Most of their items are commissions from other manufacturers. Their only in house models is the 3D printed stuff even then Dapol paint and print them all. 

[ruggedpeak]

3 minutes ago, Cor-onGRT4 said:

t Hornby forgetting these Hattons customers are Hornby customers

That's the crux of it and the bit I don't get (noting it is not just Hattons). The Customer Service email shows that they aren't that concerned about it.

[Joseph_Pestell]

10 minutes ago, Cor-onGRT4 said:

I think Hornby has shoot himself in the foot with this action, i think many people lost trust in pre ordering Hornby, simply because you don't know to which catagory the shop belongs from who you ordering from and iff you ever get what you ordered for.

We now know Hattons is excluded, but who else is stated in list 3, and what criteria Hornby is using?

I did still had 10 pre orders standing at Hattons, all has been cancelled, managed to get two of them elswhere, and three of them i will try to get elswhere after releasing and still available, the others are not priority.

Nearly 90% of my buyings a year  are Hornby , about 2500,- pounds, but now 700,- pounds less. 

But there are upcomming manufactures/ comission players, who are producing very good items , Accurascale, Dapol , Hattons, and small players.

So Hornby is getting a lot competition, they should look out for this.

The pre orders that all has been cancelled by Hattons, caused by new rules from Hornby, are not only hurting Hattons customers but Hornby forgetting these Hattons customers are Hornby customers by way of Hattons.

Now i spend my left over money from Hornby cancellations on Hattons genesis coaches and Rails of Sheffield commisioned SR D class loco's.

So eventually Hornby is loosing profit instead of increasing profit.

Maybe many more people is reacting this way.

And for the record, I keep with Hattons, because i have very good experience over the last 15 years, and for non UK customers 

good shipping rates and the trunk option.

 

Hi,

People tend to denigrate the "box shifters" but I agree with you that Hattons has improved greatly over the years and I now happily use them again.

As you say, Hornby seem to be shooting themselves in the foot with their actions - at least for the long-term.

But is it the marketing guys who are responsible for this decision which they know, from two years ago, does not work.

Or is it the "bean counters", anxious about the covenant terms on the loans that Hornby has outstanding?

 

[Ian Hargrave]

1 hour ago, col.stephens said:

I just received this reply from Hornby with regard to my email asking what was the position with their retailers.

 

Dear Mr *****, 

 

Thank you for your email. 

Hatton's have had clear communication from the directors in regards to the allocation review and the reasons surrounding why allocation reviews have needed to take place. 

I apologise for the experience you have encountered obtaining some of our products by this retailer.

Unfortunately, a retailer’s ordering system is not something I can pass comment on. 
Where the demand for a new product is unprecedented, we ensure all our retailers are allocated a fair proportion of stock.
How these items are sold within their customer base is again something I can’t pass comment on.
If they are selling these items in advance of product release, it is their responsibility to ensure they can guarantee customer orders.
   
We may still have availability on our website, and you may also be able to obtain an order through an alternate stockiest.

 

Yours Sincerely

 

Jessica Cornish

Customer Services Manager

 

 

So, there you have it from the horse's mouth:  IT'S ALL HATTONS' FAULT!

Reminds me of the line spoken by the Machiavellian Francis Urquart in The House Of Cards .”You may very well think that.....I couldn’t possibly say so “ .You may recall the final scene in which to silence Mattie,he throws her off the roof of The House of Commons. Any parallels here then ? No,probably not. On the other hand....8

[andyman7]

22 minutes ago, Ian Hargrave said:

 Sorry but you’ve caught the wrong bus here. Rails unilaterally terminated their Hornby dealings last August. Yes there had been well aired disagreement but that’s nothing whatsoever to do with any new system or conditions imposed by Hornby.They actually commission....in this case from Dapol and in others currently from Bachmann,Heljan and Rapido. They do not follow the Hattons example such as with the Class 66 

 

Fair point - I was commenting on a reply which assumed Hornby had cut Rails off so made the error of reacting to speculation

[Steamport Southport]

2 hours ago, Free At Last said:

Hattons are my local and preferred model retailer, I have used them since the early '70s. I have only been to their present outlet to pick up pre-orders, and they have even reduced to one or two per year.
Their warehouse is a 30 mile round trip for me by car with nothing else on route to make it a two or three shop journey, being motorway all the way. Previously I called in to their shop after a pleasant train journey into the city centre, having a look around the shops, and then a bus journey to Smithdown Road where there is also a large variety of shops and cafes. I made this trip almost weekly (weather permitting) just to get out of the house and I always made a planned or impulse purchase. Also their was no charge for transport using my travel pass.
Although Hattons are still my preferred retailer I would not now call them a 'bricks and mortar' outlet in the true sense where you would go just for a browse. I have also saved a lot of money.

 

Hattons is walking distance for me.

 

Unfortunately the footpath stops at the Everton training ground (USM Finch Park), but it has been mooted for quite a while that the area is going to be redeveloped with new infrastructure, roads, retail, industry, parks, schools and housing. With easier access to the industrial estate.

 

Part of the plans are here. The rest is in a different local authority so aren't part of these plans.

 

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/plan-200-acres-fields-borough-19768854

 

I believe you can access Hattons on foot from the other side though.

 

 

Jason

[No Decorum]

1 hour ago, col.stephens said:

I just received this reply from Hornby with regard to my email asking what was the position with their retailers.

 

Dear Mr *****, 

 

Thank you for your email. 

Hatton's have had clear communication from the directors in regards to the allocation review and the reasons surrounding why allocation reviews have needed to take place. 

I apologise for the experience you have encountered obtaining some of our products by this retailer.

Unfortunately, a retailer’s ordering system is not something I can pass comment on. 
Where the demand for a new product is unprecedented, we ensure all our retailers are allocated a fair proportion of stock.
How these items are sold within their customer base is again something I can’t pass comment on.
If they are selling these items in advance of product release, it is their responsibility to ensure they can guarantee customer orders.
   
We may still have availability on our website, and you may also be able to obtain an order through an alternate stockiest.

 

Yours Sincerely

 

Jessica Cornish

Customer Services Manager

 

 

So, there you have it from the horse's mouth:  IT'S ALL HATTONS' FAULT!

It is always to be hoped that when people disagree, they can sort the matter out.

When Hatton’s was unable to agree with Bachmann, It did occur to me that it left Hatton’s rather at the mercy of the other big manufacturer. Rails could have been in the same position but the relationship with Bachmann seems very good.

 

“… all our retailers are allocated a fair proportion of stock …” If Hatton’s has had to cancel all pre-orders, it would seem on the face of it that this didn’t happen.

 

“If they are selling these items in advance of product release, it is their responsibility to ensure they can guarantee customer orders.” Hatton’s isn’t selling but merely taking advance orders. If that is taken to mean that it is Hatton’s responsibility to guarantee customer pre-orders, that is crazy. Hornby is the source; Hatton’s cannot supply what Hornby doesn’t. 

[Jon Harbour]

It's certainly an unusual situation. I've tended to stick with Hattons for my rolling stock orders as generally they don't charge UK VAT or Australian GST for those of us based in Australia. As Cor-OnGRT4 commented, the Hattons trunk is a fantastic option for those of us outside the UK. I love the option of having my pre-orders put into a box until such time as I call it on for delivery. A single shipping cost for multiple pre-orders! Hooray! It massively reduces shipping costs for us antipodeans. 

 

Now I can't say for certain that I will boycott Hornby products. I'm certainly not going to go out of my way to order directly from their website though. I am looking at alternate manufacturers for the models I am interested in... for example the Rapido Titfield Thunderbolt, the Accurascale Manor and the Hatton's Genesis coaches. Most of the wagons for my layout are Dapol - that wasn't deliberate but it just sort of worked out that way because they tended to produce more of the wagons I wanted. I suppose if I'm browsing for an on-line purchase and the retailer has a Hornby model that fits my planned layout and era then I would probably order it. But Hornby do seem to have irked a lot of their potential customers and I believe this will not help them in the long run.

[phil gollin]

29 minutes ago, Cor-onGRT4 said:

.

 

...   But there are upcomming manufactures/ comission players, who are producing very good items , Accurascale, Dapol , Hattons, and small players.

So Hornby is getting a lot competition, they should look out for this.

The pre orders that all has been cancelled by Hattons, caused by new rules from Hornby, are not only hurting Hattons customers but Hornby forgetting these Hattons customers are Hornby customers by way of Hattons.

Now i spend my left over money from Hornby cancellations on Hattons genesis coaches and Rails of Sheffield commisioned SR D class loco's.   ...

.

.

.

 

Yes, The D's and relevent genesis coaches are what I want.

 

.

[adb968008]

I always assumed international sales formed a large part of Hattons sales, its certainly called out in their annual reports, and I think it was actually larger than Hornbys own international figures though obviously Hattons sells more than just Hornby ranges overseas.

 

How that helps Hornby I don’t know, as the broad assumption is UK customers moving orders to other UK retailers, but I get the impression a lot of UK retailers arent geared towards volume international sales, and for overseas customers I dont see an heir apparent retailer that offers as broad a depth range of products that obviously enter the same basket as their Hornby orders at checkout for overseas customers.

 

To me looks this like an open gap/void/oppourtunity or threat depending who you are and how you view it.

Edited May 21, 2021 by adb968008

[Graham_Muz]

9 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

I always assumed international sales formed a large part of Hattons sales, its certainly called out in their annual reports, and I think it was actually larger than Hornbys own international figures though obviously Hattons sells more than just Hornby ranges overseas.

 

How that helps Hornby I don’t know, as the broad assumption is UK customers moving orders to other UK retailers, but I get the impression a lot of UK retailers arent geared towards volume international sales, and for overseas customers I dont see an heir apparent retailer that offers as broad a depth range of products that obviously enter the same basket as their Hornby orders at checkout for overseas customers.

 

To me looks this like an open gap/void/oppourtunity or threat depending who you are and how you view it.

 

Other retailers also happily ship overseas...

Edited May 21, 2021 by Graham_Muz

[Roy Langridge]

I have decided that I will order / purchase no more Hornby items beyond those that I have on pre-order with retailers (why should they suffer further). I know it is a small gesture, and is probably only going to hurt me in the long run, but Hornby cannot be allowed to treat its customers with such contempt. I ordered a full APT set on the day it was announced, all of which has been cancelled, as has my 48DS and a Peckett. Having got burnt on a DJ Models APT I thought it was coming true this time, but...

 

If enough people vetoed Hornby they may get the message, as it is, I fear it will all be water of a duck's back to them.

 

In the mean time my orders that are direct with Hornby will be cancelled.

Roy

[adb968008]

37 minutes ago, Graham_Muz said:

 

Other retailers also happily ship overseas...

But don't stock several hundred manufacturers (yes they offer more than 100)  including all manner of obscure kits, tools and bits, plus their second hand range is huge, which whilst often considered expensive at UK rates, ex-VAT actually makes them very competitive, to even ebays rates.

 

Hattons online range is vast, Rails too (but no Hornby either).

I dont see an heir apparent, unless you think of Walthers or Gaugemaster, but one is less relevent the other is higher priced.

 

That gap is, for a retailer to dump an “extra large” equivalent range of all those bits (and lets be honest.. its Gaugemaster, Peco and Bachmann who 3rd party supply them to retailers), to include them into their online sites, rather than instore only. I suspect its time and handling is why many dont... 2KTechnologies is a good example of a retailer who does this on ebay for instance... just look at their sales history to see how many hundreds of bits they sell there daily. (no connection just a happy repeat customer for bits).

 

Personally i’m hoping for a ramp up of European HO, as this has become extremely uncompetitive in the last few years here in the UK.

Sure buying rtr oo locos and coaches for export is easy, a lot of retailers do that...thats not the issue.

 

 

Edited May 21, 2021 by adb968008

[ruggedpeak]

On 20/05/2021 at 09:02, ruggedpeak said:

Just had confimration from TMC that the NR DVT and other yellow items I pre-ordered are in stock. All are also on the Hornby website, despite reportedly being cancelled elsewhere.

My final pre-ordered Hornby 2020 items have just arrived from TMC. And very nice they are too. TMC have delivered everything from the 2020 range I pre-ordered, having had to switch after another retailer cancelled late on.

 

My Hornby 2021 pre-order is much reduced and with John Dutfield, and purchases from the 2021 range will be more based upon when things actually appear. With Dapol bringing out more flavours of Class 68's and various other items on the way from other manufacturers I am happy to buy spontaneously from in stock items at retailers going forward.

[Joseph_Pestell]

13 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

I always assumed international sales formed a large part of Hattons sales, its certainly called out in their annual reports, and I think it was actually larger than Hornbys own international figures though obviously Hattons sells more than just Hornby ranges overseas.

 

How that helps Hornby I don’t know, as the broad assumption is UK customers moving orders to other UK retailers, but I get the impression a lot of UK retailers arent geared towards volume international sales, and for overseas customers I dont see an heir apparent retailer that offers as broad a depth range of products that obviously enter the same basket as their Hornby orders at checkout for overseas customers.

 

To me looks this like an open gap/void/oppourtunity or threat depending who you are and how you view it.

 

Hornby have had many opportunities over the last 25 years to make hay from its International brands.

 

It has completely failed to achieve in this respect. A complete b****rs' muddle.

[adb968008]

33 minutes ago, Roy Langridge said:

I have decided that I will order / purchase no more Hornby items beyond those that I have on pre-order with retailers (why should they suffer further). I know it is a small gesture, and is probably only going to hurt me in the long run, but Hornby cannot be allowed to treat its customers with such contempt. I ordered a full APT set on the day it was announced, all of which has been cancelled, as has my 48DS and a Peckett. Having got burnt on a DJ Models APT I thought it was coming true this time, but...

 

If enough people vetoed Hornby they may get the message, as it is, I fear it will all be water of a duck's back to them.

 

In the mean time my orders that are direct with Hornby will be cancelled.

Roy

Me too.

 

ive cancelled 8 orders with Hornby direct and I said exactly why in my email.

I doubt anyone there cared, i just got the “ok” response.

 

I have actually canceled more than £5k of pre-orders across the hobby this month, about 25-30% my annual spend, as tbh it feels the overall atmosphere is changing. (I admit I do buy more than the average modeller as I am as much a collector too, though I suspect i’m not the only one like myself, but just one who cares to admit it, though admittedly I sell quite a lot too).

 

Ive only ever found 1 retailer who actually cared about my annual spend, so they have approx 40% my spend just in themselves and happy with them. To everyone else i’m just another joe at their website, ymmv, which means I shift my orders to suit and without loyalty to those.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 21, 2021 by adb968008

[Brian Indge]

Hornby could stop all the foaming at the mouth by being upfront to prospective customers about the supply situation but have chosen not to. Once again it is poor customer relations, especially by a Company supposedly trying to get into profit.

 

For the customer services manager to state that retailers will get a “Fair” allocation is rubbish when one retailer has stated they will only get one of the ten W1 models they ordered.

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, andyman7 said:

They are also a manufacturer (including a Terrier....) so presumably another clause was the issue there

What issue?  Rails announced a Terrier in conjunction with the NRM.  Hornby then decided for whatever (real) reason that we don't know and using a design already largely developed 'elsewhere' to try to beat Rails to the door with one of their own.  It was duly rushed through without any of their normal high standards of research etc in respect of detail in order to get it into the marketplace before Rails.  More like a rather childish act of churlishness that any sort of carefully considered strategy (unless the strategy was to knock anyone, but especially a retailer, who dared to compete with a better model of something which was in Hornby's range or back catalogue?). 

 

This time round we're looking at something very different as Hornby seemingly are perhaps trying to mitigate some previous mismanagement where they would seem to have sold/accepted orders for more goods than they had actually ordered from the factories.  Tiers are one thing - like it or not - but they only seem to have emerged because Hornby hadn't matched the trade orders it accepted with the quantities of goods it had ordered from the factories and in my book that amounts to mismanagement.

[Ian Hargrave]

3 minutes ago, Brian Indge said:

Hornby could stop all the foaming at the mouth by being upfront to prospective customers about the supply situation but have chosen not to. Once again it is poor customer relations, especially by a Company supposedly trying to get into profit.

 

For the customer services manager to state that retailers will get a “Fair” allocation is rubbish when one retailer has stated they will only get one of the ten W1 models they ordered.

 

And as opposed to which we have imposed a system which can only sow the seeds of dissension and continue the rumbling of discontent.What the rationale for this is anybody’s guess.It’s the very opposite of transparency.

 

 Rationing books and black market next ? Back to the future.
 

 

[Free At Last]

I too will not be purchasing any Hornby products other than from my local retailer.
The P2 which I had cancelled was only a 'nice to have' because money is burning a hole in my pocket and will now be going on an Accurascale GWR Manor.