WillCav Posted February 11, 2021 Share Posted February 11, 2021 Hi all, I'm thinking of building a modest engine shed with coal stage as part of a layout (we've all got too many locos haven't we). The shed I'm looking at would need to receive up to 100tons of coal per day. How were Loco coal wagons sent to the depots? Did it get added to regular goods working or was it in specific loco coal trains (perhaps dropping off wagons to each shed on a route). Looking at photos, it looks like both 10ton and 20ton wagons were used in the same locations. Where were the 40ton bogie wagons used? Were a few of the wagons used for ash when empty - where did the ash go? Sorry for loads of questions - happy to read up myself if people can recommend books etc. Thanks Will Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted February 11, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 11, 2021 @WillCav, when and where is your shed? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WillCav Posted February 11, 2021 Author Share Posted February 11, 2021 (edited) @Compound2632 I thinking about Cheltenham Malvern Road about 1947-8. 16 locos + 1 railcar based there It's 31 chains between two overbridges, with a depot, 3 platform station and some goods. It's asking to be modelled. Thanks Will Edited February 11, 2021 by WillCav Adding more detail 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted February 12, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 12, 2021 About half a dozen or so wagons a day, GW owned steel bodied types. I guess it would arrive as a portion of a goods and be tripped from yard to shed, but am not stating this to be fact. Ash had a high potassium content and was used in fertiliser manufacture, but how it was transported away from the shed I do not know. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted February 12, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 12, 2021 (edited) 4 minutes ago, The Johnster said: Ash had a high potassium content and was used in fertiliser manufacture, but how it was transported away from the shed I do not know. Quite possibly not by rail, if there was a local demand for it. Coal ash was toxic, certainly compared to wood ash, so another use was for surfacing yards and line-side paths, as an effective weedkiller. Many brownfield sites are now paying the price. Edited February 12, 2021 by Compound2632 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 57xx Posted February 12, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 12, 2021 Coal fairies. But I'm not stating this as fact. 1 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted February 12, 2021 Share Posted February 12, 2021 4 hours ago, Compound2632 said: Quite possibly not by rail, if there was a local demand for it. Coal ash was toxic, certainly compared to wood ash, so another use was for surfacing yards and line-side paths, as an effective weedkiller. Many brownfield sites are now paying the price. There were certainly some locations that were used as tips for loco ash; Patchway tip, where the Hitachi depot is, was one, and I think Monmouthshire Bank (Newport) was another. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted February 12, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 12, 2021 In those cases it was mixed with spent ballast and other sorts of railway debris. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Siberian Snooper Posted February 13, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 13, 2021 Ash was used as ballast in sidings, being reasonably free draining, I have read somewhere, possibly one of the shed books that the ash was loaded into empty coal wagons for transporting away. There would be less ash going out than coal coming in. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Welchester Posted February 13, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 13, 2021 On 11/02/2021 at 21:40, WillCav said: @Compound2632 I thinking about Cheltenham Malvern Road about 1947-8. 16 locos + 1 railcar based there It's 31 chains between two overbridges, with a depot, 3 platform station and some goods. It's asking to be modelled. I don't think there were any goods facilities at Malvern Road. All goods were handled at St James, which was better placed, being in the town centre. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted February 13, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 13, 2021 53 minutes ago, Welchester said: I don't think there were any goods facilities at Malvern Road. All goods were handled at St James, which was better placed, being in the town centre. The 1920 OS 25" map shows a couple of spaciously laid-out goods sidings at Malvern Road, in addition to the long-established facilities at the St James terminus. Perhaps more convenient for country traffic. The Midland's goods facilities look surprisingly cramped. 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted February 13, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 13, 2021 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Compound2632 said: The Midland's goods facilities look surprisingly cramped. OT but: this probably reflects a lack of interest in Cheltenham on the part of the Midland and its predecessors, whose chief interest was in connecting Gloucester Docks and Bristol with the industrial Midlands. The sentiment may have been mutual: the genteel inhabitants of Cheltenham having no interest in Birmingham or Gloucester, London being the only place worth going. Though I suppose they may have taken the odd trip by the Midland to Harrogate to check out the competition. Edited February 13, 2021 by Compound2632 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WillCav Posted February 13, 2021 Author Share Posted February 13, 2021 37 minutes ago, Compound2632 said: The 1920 OS 25" map shows a couple of spaciously laid-out goods sidings at Malvern Road, in addition to the long-established facilities at the St James terminus. Perhaps more convenient for country traffic. The Midland's goods facilities look surprisingly cramped. There is no goods shed unfortunately and all photos seem to only be opens in the goods sidings - but I can have the pickup goods with more interesting wagons going onward to St James. In 1947, one of the diesel railcars was shedded there - I'll also need to find out how they were fuelled (but that's off topic for this thread). It must be a rare GW shed - it has no panniers based there in 1947. Thanks for all the assistance everyone Will 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted February 13, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 13, 2021 Malvern Road has come up previously on RMweb While St James has also been considered as a theme for a layout 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wagonman Posted February 13, 2021 Share Posted February 13, 2021 4 hours ago, Compound2632 said: The 1920 OS 25" map shows a couple of spaciously laid-out goods sidings at Malvern Road, in addition to the long-established facilities at the St James terminus. Perhaps more convenient for country traffic. The Midland's goods facilities look surprisingly cramped. The Midland had quite a large yard at High Street, shared with the MSW I believe. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Welchester Posted February 13, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 13, 2021 5 hours ago, Compound2632 said: The 1920 OS 25" map shows a couple of spaciously laid-out goods sidings at Malvern Road, in addition to the long-established facilities at the St James terminus. Perhaps more convenient for country traffic. The Midland's goods facilities look surprisingly cramped. Oh, I didn't know that. There don't appear to be any buildings associated with the goods sidings. 18 minutes ago, wagonman said: The Midland had quite a large yard at High Street, shared with the MSW I believe. The Midland goods yard on Tewkkesbury Road is on this map. The MSWJR facilities seem to be separate. Sadly, there is no more recent 25" map 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
br2975 Posted February 13, 2021 Share Posted February 13, 2021 (edited) The picture (photographer unknown) was taken at Cheltenham Spa (Malvern Road) in 1958. . I appreciate it is some ten years after the OP's date, but it is quite interesting. . On the coal stage bank, and closest in the nearest row of wagons can be seen BR 24.1/2 ton mineral wagons aka 'Bombers' - a number of these, when new, were allocated to WR 'Loco Coal' traffic, operated from 'Oakdale Colliery' and carried a board on the left hand body panel advertising their use. That board can be clearly seen on the nearest such wagon, and appears to be visible on the other at the far end of the coal stage bank. . The nearest raft of wagons contains several different designs and types, including mineral wagons and 5-plank wagon(s) and a steel bodied equivalent, also what appears to be a Grampus. From this I would assume that the 'Loco Coal' was possibly tripped from elsewhere, possibly not amounting to enough each day to warrant a dedicated train; maybe a 'Loco Coal' train ran from Rogerstone to Gloucester for the Worcester Division depots, from where it was tripped as and when required ? . Brian R Edited February 13, 2021 by br2975 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted February 13, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 13, 2021 19 minutes ago, br2975 said: From this I would assume that the 'Loco Coal' was possibly tripped from elsewhere, possibly not amounting to enough each day to warrant a dedicated train; maybe a 'Loco Coal' train ran from Rogerstone to Gloucester for the Worcester Division depots, from where it was tripped as and when required ? Mention of Rogerstone is interesting. There were Class H freights from there to Banbury and Oxford via Cheltenham and Stratford in the early 1950s. PS Looking a bit further I found coal trains from Rogerstone to Banbury and from Aberdare to Banbury Loco going via Cheltenham in 1949. Possibly one of these dropped off wagons as required? 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Welchester Posted February 13, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 13, 2021 2 hours ago, br2975 said: The picture (photographer unknown) was taken at Cheltenham Spa (Malvern Road) in 1958. . I appreciate it is some ten years after the OP's date, but it is quite interesting. . On the coal stage bank, and closest in the nearest row of wagons can be seen BR 24.1/2 ton mineral wagons aka 'Bombers' - a number of these, when new, were allocated to WR 'Loco Coal' traffic, operated from 'Oakdale Colliery' and carried a board on the left hand body panel advertising their use. That board can be clearly seen on the nearest such wagon, and appears to be visible on the other at the far end of the coal stage bank. . The nearest raft of wagons contains several different designs and types, including mineral wagons and 5-plank wagon(s) and a steel bodied equivalent, also what appears to be a Grampus. From this I would assume that the 'Loco Coal' was possibly tripped from elsewhere, possibly not amounting to enough each day to warrant a dedicated train; maybe a 'Loco Coal' train ran from Rogerstone to Gloucester for the Worcester Division depots, from where it was tripped as and when required ? . Brian R Great photo. It looks as though the end of the former goods sidings has been turned into an extension of the engine shed. I was hoping there might be further information on the Gloucestershire Railway Memories website, but it seems to have disappeared. Pity. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted February 13, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 13, 2021 2 hours ago, wagonman said: The Midland had quite a large yard at High Street, shared with the MSW I believe. 2 hours ago, Welchester said: The Midland goods yard on Tewkkesbury Road is on this map. The MSWJR facilities seem to be separate. Sadly, there is no more recent 25" map Thanks. That's much more the sort of thing one expects to see. I hadn't looked at the next sheet! Those MSWJR sidings look to be marshalling / exchange sidings rather than a goods station. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WillCav Posted February 13, 2021 Author Share Posted February 13, 2021 56 minutes ago, Welchester said: Great photo. It looks as though the end of the former goods sidings has been turned into an extension of the engine shed. I was hoping there might be further information on the Gloucestershire Railway Memories website, but it seems to have disappeared. Pity. If you look on at later maps, or in the E Lyons engine shed book, the shed extension fits in the gap south of the two goods lines. The weird thing is that the lines between the station and the coal stage seem to change from 3 to 4 at some stage. Thanks all for your input on this location. I've been looking at timetables etc and it looks like quite a busy station. Will 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold tomparryharry Posted February 13, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 13, 2021 Coal was ordered by individual depot, at the Pontypool Coal Office, and sometimes, an office in Newport Docks. By & large, the longer the distance, the larger the wagon, so places such as OOC had Felix Pole 20-tonners (by that date ) . The 40-ton bogie wagons were mostly used down west (Kingswear, I believe ) Each large depot had a coal stack in reserve, normally 'about' a months supply, but I'm not exactly sure. South wales depots were normally supplied by local pits, but the exact working arrangements varied depot by depot. An example would be Llantrisant, where the coal mostly-mainly from Cambrian & Brittanic collieries which both worked the same coal seams. Ash & clinker is (as others have said ) is normally free draining, and would be used for spot packing. Being fairly acidic by composition, it's ideal for keeping the slugs & snails off your cabbage. 1 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted February 14, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 14, 2021 18 hours ago, Welchester said: Great photo. It looks as though the end of the former goods sidings has been turned into an extension of the engine shed. I was hoping there might be further information on the Gloucestershire Railway Memories website, but it seems to have disappeared. Pity. Looks more likely that the shed was extended into part of the the area between the goods sidings and the original shed building. A photo currently on offer on Ebay shows the extension was only two roads and there was still a space beyond it including what appears to be the sidings. if you look closely at the photo posted by 'br2975' on the extreme lefthere are wagons visible at the back on the goods yard sidings - which presumably were used only for full loads traffic including coal. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Welchester Posted February 14, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 14, 2021 There's a very short clip of the engine shed in the BTF film Mishap. Unfortunately, it's not possible to see what is beyond the shed roads. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium NCB Posted February 14, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 14, 2021 On 13/02/2021 at 10:40, Compound2632 said: The Midland's goods facilities look surprisingly cramped. Not the only thing which was cramped; Lansdown Road station was a hole. Platforms way too short; trains would stop then shuffle on a bit. Dark and gloomy. Not been there for a long time (like 60 years) but I believe the platforms have been lengthened. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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