Seaside & Holiday Island Narrow Gauge

[melmerby]

13 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

 

I think they had a R&H 30DL (which, if I'm right might have been ex-military) and possibly an O&K MD series loco.

As far as I can remember it was cabless.

 I can't remember that well as it was 65+ years ago!

Edited February 19, 2021 by melmerby

[melmerby]

4 hours ago, Tim V said:

Have you created an account? Fan of sidings clearly visible on full screen and zoomed in. What caravan/tent did you have - there's a number of those visible.

What resolution do you get?

I have created an account and downloaded it again and it looks no different.

The original on the site is only 580 x 619px, which is no where near high definition.

[Nearholmer]

If its this image https://britainfromabove.org.uk/en/image/EAW051342

 

It isn't one of their better ones, but I can make-out a Vee-skip on the track down to the beach, and further up the track a blobby shadow that could well be the loco (or not).

 

This one, if you zoom well in, shows a drag-line excavator at work at the mouth of the Cuckmere in Sussex, and the railway belonging to East Sussex Transport & Trading. https://britainfromabove.org.uk/en/image/EPW044650

 

And, a nice one showing Rye Harbour, with the R&CT, the end of the SG branch onto the pier, and a sprig of one of the many 2ft gauge railways.https://britainfromabove.org.uk/en/image/EPW026247

Edited February 19, 2021 by Nearholmer

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

If its this image https://britainfromabove.org.uk/en/image/EAW051342

 

It isn't one of their better ones, but I can make-out a Vee-skip on the track down to the beach, and further up the track a blobby shadow that could well be the loco (or not).

 

 

I'm baffled

I have got the image blown up on screen (24") and it is quite sharp (can't download a sharp image though)

The track leaves the yard by the bottom end of the long building, crosses the White River adjacent and travels approx horizontally but slightly down to the left through the scrub until it disappears off screen to the left where the excavation site is (not in picture).

I can't see a fan of sidings apart from in the yard.

Edited February 19, 2021 by melmerby

[Nearholmer]

The line down to the beach that I'm looking at is between the fan of sidings, and the silted-channel to the harbour gates.

 

I've put a label-pin on the skip now - just click in the blue flag.

 

 

Edited February 19, 2021 by Nearholmer

[Pacific231G]

4 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

The outfit that seemed to like 30" gauge was The Royal Navy, it being used at several of their depots, which gave some supply of secondhand material, although far less than the avalanche of 24" gauge army-surplus material. I don't have the IRS handbook covering Cornwall, so can't check the origin of the locos used on the Pentewan sand railway. The Pentewan Railway proper had 'Pioneer', ex-Lodge Hill & Upnor, but that dodged the draft to navy, and seems to have stayed with the army, possibly going to Longmoor, when the management of the LH&U changed.

 

 

I've done a bit of delving and the loco used for the sand extraction operation at Pentewan from 1946 was a 20hp Ruston Hornsby. It was 30inch gauge and apparently bought new but appears to be the same design that they supplied for 24 inch gauge. It is (or was in 2014) on display but not restored at the Wheal Martyn Museum along with a wagon that jusdging by its dumb buffers was probably from the original Pentewan Railway. The Sand Railway's stock was equipped with link and pin couplers of the normal industrial type (as used on the LBNGR for example) The sand railway had quite a  lot of track, including a fan of sidings, at the harbour end that wasn't part of the original railway but I think it probably did use some of the old track remaining on the pier.

 

I found quite a lot of images including  some photos of the sand railway taken in 1962 when it was apparently still in sporadic  operation, on the Cornwall Railway Society site here

http://www.cornwallrailwaysociety.org.uk/military-and-industrial-tramways--light-railways.html

You need to scroll down quite a long way to Pentewan during which you will certainly be distracted by the images of the 24 inch Penlee tramway.

The inset (or ar least well buried) track I saw there in the late 1980s seems to have been there in 2016 so probably still is now. I think I can just make it out in the Google Earth image.  

 

UPDATE

I've jsut found an article by Michael Bussell about the Sand Railway from Railway Bylines in 1999. It includes a trackplan by Roger Hateley of the railway as it was in April 1965 which seems to have been the last time it was used, to produce concrete blocks for a dam project.

 

Though Bussell says that the two railways were completely separate I can see some of the later railway's track also appearing to be in identical locations and of course to the same gauge. I suspect that when the Pentewan Railway closed, some of its track continued in use at Pentewan for local sand extraction. from the adjoining beach, probably on a small scale and without locos,  before being extended, probably after WW2, to the eastern beach by the Pentewan Dock and Concrete Company. Unfortunately, the 25inch OS map collection in the NLS only includes a 1907 map of the area so there's no obvious way to see what was there between the Pentewan Railway closing in 1918 and the larger scale sand extraction for concrete making operation getting under way after WW2. 

 

Edited February 20, 2021 by Pacific231G

[Marshall5]

A very interesting short film of one of the Far Twittering and Oystercreek locos running at Sothport has appeared on Youtube

When I used to go on the Lakeside Miniature Railway as a kid in the 60's the carriages still carried cast FTO plates on the ends.   Enjoy.

Ray.

 

[melmerby]

Nice to see the Pentewan loco in the links posted by David.

It was exactly as I remember it, so my memory can't be that bad.

 

IIRC when extracting the sand they only used two or three trucks,  when full they were carted back to the works for emptying before a fairly quick return for more loading.

13 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

If its this image https://britainfromabove.org.uk/en/image/EAW051342

 

It isn't one of their better ones, but I can make-out a Vee-skip on the track down to the beach, and further up the track a blobby shadow that could well be the loco (or not).

 

 

I can now view in zoomed mode and I agree that is one of the wagons but that is not the extraction site, maybe rubbish dumping?

The extraction site was quite a way left of the river.

[Nearholmer]

22 minutes ago, melmerby said:

maybe rubbish dumping?

 

Logical. Probably all the pebbles and bits and pieces filtered-out at the screens.

 

I can see another skip wagon body, upside down at the end of the fan of sidings.

[Pacific231G]

1 hour ago, melmerby said:

Nice to see the Pentewan loco in the links posted by David.

It was exactly as I remember it, so my memory can't be that bad.

 

IIRC when extracting the sand they only used two or three trucks,  when full they were carted back to the works for emptying before a fairly quick return for more loading.

I can now view in zoomed mode and I agree that is one of the wagons but that is not the extraction site, maybe rubbish dumping?

The extraction site was quite a way left of the river.

Hello Keith

I think it was simply used by the Pentewan Dock and Concrete Company as a head shunt for the loop through the concrete plant but it did go down to the beach beside the breakwater so may have been used for more minor sand extraction before the concrete company started extraction on  a larger scale from the site 150-200 yards to the west of the St. Austell River.

 

According to Michael Bussell's article in the October 1999 Railway Bylines (which I've PMd to you and Kevin) there were three Ruston and Hornsby 20hp diesel locos at Pentewan in 1965, two of them in working order, built in 1938, 1939 and 1946 and all three had also worked at the concrete company's other works Gwithian near Hayle. Rail operations there finished in 1958.  Bussell was sure that the original railway had been entirely dismantled and sold for scrap towards the end of WW1 and that the concrete company's system was completely new but I'm not so sure. We really need to get hold of 25inch OS maps of the area from after the pre WW1 editions held by the NLS to trace the actual history of the various railways at Pentewan.

Edited February 20, 2021 by Pacific231G

[Pacific231G]

13 hours ago, melmerby said:

I'm baffled

I have got the image blown up on screen (24") and it is quite sharp (can't download a sharp image though)

The track leaves the yard by the bottom end of the long building, crosses the White River adjacent and travels approx horizontally but slightly down to the left through the scrub until it disappears off screen to the left where the excavation site is (not in picture).

I can't see a fan of sidings apart from in the yard.

Being almost buried in sand the track itself is invisible once it starts diverging but the shape of the 'paths' diverging from the 'main line' fit the plan from Michael Bussell's Railway Bylines article. 

 

 

It's not impossible that some of that track is still there buried under several feet of sand though I think an access road to the caravan site may follow the main route.

I'm also intrigued by this

Are the two shapes in the rectangle I've slightly highlighted just to the right of what looks like two people standing on the beach the ends of possibly two sets of rails poking out from sand that's buried the track in front of the tipper wagon.

I remember seeing track buried in sand like that but I think it was at Bude in the 1960s rather than Pentewan. However. I may have photos I took at Pentewan in the 1980s. If so I'll scan them.  My physical prints are far less well organised than my digital images !!

 

 

Edited February 20, 2021 by Pacific231G

[Nearholmer]

Yes, I read that thing you’ve highlighted as a track panel too.

 

You have to account for the fact that NG industrial track panels are very easy to shift around, so it may not be attached to the rest of the track, although it equally might be.

[melmerby]

If you look at a current aerial view of the area you can see that the camp site has expanded southwards through the scrub and over where the tracks to the excavations were, with the trackway's course from the bridge now being a pathway.

 

I can't remember exactly how many excavation faces there were (and hence sidings) but there were usually two in use which frequently got new deposits washed into them at high tide.

 

IIRC the ends of the sidings sloped down into the sand. I never saw any ends to them, they  always disappeared into the sand.

 

[Will Crompton]

Can I make a case for a narrow gauge tramway at Horrid Hill, a tiny peninsula located on the muddy Medway Estuaryside seaside near Gillingham.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riverside_Country_Park

 

Horrid Hill is a tiny lslet just in the estuary and a very small cement works was constructed on it in the 19th C along with a causeway to the coast along which a narrow gauge (as far as I know) tramway was constructed to bring some of the raw materials to the works. It closed according to online sources in 1910. The references I have managed to find state it was horse drawn. It's now part of the Riverside Country Park and it's a fascinating place as is much of the Medway, er, seaside. One can walk along the causeway to Horrid Hill where the ruins of the works can be seen. Apparenty mud was collected from the tidal flats as a raw material to supply cement works in the area including the Horrid Hill works and the workers who did this were called 'muddies'. Anyway here's a couple of pictures I took in 2012. The first shows the causeway leading out to Horrid Hill. The second is a bit of the works remains with a bit of rail sticking out. I'm not sure if this was taken from the tramway though.

[009 micro modeller]

8 minutes ago, Will Crompton said:

tramway was constructed to bring some of the raw materials to the works.

 

Was it also used to serve the completed cement works?

[melmerby]

See here:

https://maps.nls.uk/view/103677344

https://maps.nls.uk/view/103677314

[Will Crompton]

Apologies, my sentence was ambiguous. According to the references I have seen the causeway was built to allow the tramway to be laid so it could bring raw materials to the works. I just came across this reference with a few more details suggestinng it was active until 1913.

[Nearholmer]

13 minutes ago, Will Crompton said:

Can I make a case for a narrow gauge tramway at Horrid Hill

 

Case made, in half a sentence. How can anyone not like the idea of a tramway to Horrid Hill? 

 

We were on about Poison Cross, and the never-completed junction at Snake Island, on the EKLR in another thread, but Horrid Hill possibly beats both.

[Will Crompton]

3 minutes ago, melmerby said:

See here:

https://maps.nls.uk/view/103677344

https://maps.nls.uk/view/103677314

They are very interesting. Given how close they quarry is to the SECR line, and given rule one, I think this location could inspire a rather nice model - standard gauge interchange, replace horses with steam locomotion on the tramway, evocative mud flats etc, a couple of derelict boats/hulls......

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, Will Crompton said:

They are very interesting. Given how close they quarry is to the SECR line, and given rule one, I think this location could inspire a rather nice model - standard gauge interchange, replace horses with steam locomotion on the tramway, evocative mud flats etc, a couple of derelict boats/hulls......

You could even have the fairly common arrangement at a small local industry of Standard Gauge/Narrow Gauge exchange sidings next to the road crossing at Twydall

[Will Crompton]

1 hour ago, melmerby said:

See here:

https://maps.nls.uk/view/103677344

https://maps.nls.uk/view/103677314

I had a look on Googlemaps and Google Earth of the area in the first of the two OS maps you linked to and one can see where the chalkpit/quarry (now filled in) was and the route of the tramway going north. The ex SECR line is visible to the lower right of the image.

 

Edited February 20, 2021 by Will Crompton
Typo

[whart57]

Further along the Kent coast you have Conyer Creek, a tidal inlet off the Swale (the water between Sheppey and mainland Kent) and the 25" to the mile maps you can view on the National Library of Scotland site show that there were several tramways serving brickworks and cement works. These lines qualify as "sea side" as the Swale is salt water (I believe) and these lines all serve small wharves for barge traffic. If I had three or four lifetimes to do modelling in then I'd like to model this place. (I have actually been down to Conyer to take some pictures, though it was twenty years ago and the prints are up on the loft somewhere)

[Pacific231G]

And you had of course the Sittingbourne and Kelmsley Light Railway that once ran to Ridham Dock on the tidal Swale where Bowaters' pulp ships were unloaded. Whether the Kent marshes count as seaside I'll leave open but if you walk from the preserved railway's terninus round to Ridham it's a landscape/seascape that definitely has its attractions.

It can't though offer a name to beat Horrid Hill !

Edited February 21, 2021 by Pacific231G

[Pacific231G]

10 hours ago, melmerby said:

If you look at a current aerial view of the area you can see that the camp site has expanded southwards through the scrub and over where the tracks to the excavations were, with the trackway's course from the bridge now being a pathway.

 

I can't remember exactly how many excavation faces there were (and hence sidings) but there were usually two in use which frequently got new deposits washed into them at high tide.

 

IIRC the ends of the sidings sloped down into the sand. I never saw any ends to them, they  always disappeared into the sand.

 

So  much for my theory about avoiding salt laden sand! I saw something similar at I think Bude in the mid 1960s where the ends of the sand railway tracks there just disappeared under the sand. Apparently, storms in 2018 took about three feet of sand from the beach and revealed a stretch of the two foot gauge track which was clearly Decauville/Hudson type with the rail welded to dished metal sleepers.

Edited February 21, 2021 by Pacific231G

[rockershovel]

16 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

 

Case made, in half a sentence. How can anyone not like the idea of a tramway to Horrid Hill? 

 

We were on about Poison Cross, and the never-completed junction at Snake Island, on the EKLR in another thread, but Horrid Hill possibly beats both.

 

....... especially for the purpose of serving the mud mines!