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ESU mobile 59113 not seeing ESU ECoS command station


Norski
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Hello all

I have an older mobile control unit 59113 and a more recent 50210 command station. Inside my railway room is also a wifi router. 
So i plugged my command station directly into the router and i can see clearly IP address, Gateway, Netmask. "get IP setting from DHCP' is ticked.
I have linked my 59113 to the same wifi network as the router. However, the 59113 cannot detect the presence of the command station and i don't know why.
2 points that may or may not be relevant:-
 - The router is part of mesh system linked to the main router in another part of the house (give better wifi coverage)
- The 59113 is well overdue an update but i have no Windows hardware at present to carry it out.
This is all on the very frontier of my computing knowledge. I don't know whether its to do with Gateway or IP settings ??  so any advice would be very much welcomed.

(also posted this on ESU forum earlier).
Cheers.

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From what you have described it "should" work, because you are using your router as an "access point"  but....there could be a possibility of 2 DHCP servers on your network....and thats a no no :) can you check that you have DHCP switched off on the router in your railway room? Because DHCP should only be supplied by your main router if you have it on the same network as your railway room router.

 

Thanks


Simon

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30 minutes ago, pheaton said:

From what you have described it "should" work, because you are using your router as an "access point"  but....there could be a possibility of 2 DHCP servers on your network....and thats a no no :) can you check that you have DHCP switched off on the router in your railway room? Because DHCP should only be supplied by your main router if you have it on the same network as your railway room router.

 

Thanks


Simon

 Thanks. So, you may be on to something here...more info

 

My main router is a SKY router. Thats downstairs. It has a wifi signal but i no longer use it as the signal strength wasn't large enough to cover the house. So now theres a cable coming out the sky router going to a DECO router - both in the same room. This DECO unit is paired to 4 slave units dotted around the house with one of them in my train room. My devices pick up the wifi from each DECO unit depending what room you are in. I thinks its called a mesh and it gives excellent coverage. I plugged my ESU ECoS directed into the DECO unit in the train room. It has two ports for CAT5 cable and a power in cable. No other buttons to perform any modification to DHCP. 

 

What do you think ? 

 

 

 

Edited by Norski
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15 minutes ago, BR Blue said:

One thing that occurred to me would be whether the 59113 needs a software update?

Most definitely.....you haven't got a microsoft based PC i can borrow...LOL

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2 hours ago, Norski said:

Most definitely.....you haven't got a microsoft based PC i can borrow...LOL

I don't think that a software (MC2 app) update would necessarily help. The most recent MC2 app one seemed to be to get the Android 6 version to show the numbers on the function buttons, something that the android 4 version has always done.

 

Provided your ECoS is running firmware 4.1.0 or higher, it ought to work with any version of the MC2 app.

 

So the first question has to be, have you successfully used this particular MC2 with your ECoS before? If you have then they should connect up again, provided you haven't changed the way in which they connect. By that I mean using the WiFi access point that came with your MC2. If it worked when you used that previously, but you are now connecting via your home WiFi, then that is the problem. The MC2 app remembers the name of the last WiFi network that it used to connect to an ECoS, and looks for that network again. If you used the WiFi access point that comes with the 50113 (not 59113), then the WiFi Network name will have been ESUWIFI, and the app will be looking for ESUWIFI and won't connect to your ECoS unless it finds ESUWIFI. So what you have to do is tell the app where to find the ECoS. To do that when the blue bar saying "Select Command Stat... appears, touch the 3 vertical dots to the right of the blue bar. You will see 2 options "Enter manually" and "Demo Mode". Touch Enter Manually, and Enter your ECoS's IP address. If you don't know it. go into the ECoS's config menu and select the IP tab. You should see the ECoS's IP address displayed. When you enter the ECoS's IP address into the MC2 app, don't forget that each of the number groups must be separated b ya full stop. So if your ECoS's IP address is shown as 192 168 1 65 you enter it as 192.168.1.65   The app should no find the ECoS.

 

Good Luck.

 

Edited by GoingUnderground
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6 minutes ago, GoingUnderground said:

I don't think that a software (MC2 app) update would necessarily help. The most recent MC2 app one seemed to be to get the Android 6 version to show the numbers on the function buttons, something that the android 4 version has always done.

 

Provided your ECoS is running firmware 4.1.0 or higher, it ought to work with any version of the MC2 app.

 

So the first question has to be, have you successfully used this particular MC2 with your ECoS before? If you have then they should connect up again, provided you haven't changed the way in which they connect. By that I mean using the WiFi access point that came with your MC2. If it worked when you used that previously, but you are now connecting via your home WiFi, then that is the problem. The MC2 app remembers the name of the last WiFi network that it used to connect to an ECoS, and looks for that network again. If you used the WiFi access point that comes with the 50113 (not 59113), then the WiFi Network nme will have been ESUWIFI, and the app will be looking for ESUWIFI and won't connect unless it finds ESUWIFI. So what you have to do is tell the app where to find the ECoS. To do that when the blue bar saying "Select Command Stat... appears, touch the 3 vertical dots to the right of the blue bar. You will see 2 options "Enter manually" and "Demo Mode". Touch Enter manually, and Enter your ECoS's IP address. If you don't know it. go into the ECoS's config menu and select the IP tab. You should see the ECoS's IP address displayed. When you enter the ECoS's IP address into the MC2 app, don't forget that each of the number groups must be separated b ya full stop. So if your ECoS's IPO address is shown as 192 168 1 65 you enter it as 192.168.1.65  

 

Good Luck.

 

Thank for detailed answer.

 

More info from me - The MC2 is originally a PIKO 59113. It came as part of a German train set and links to its own control box that in turn links to the track - that box is just power and wifi signal to hand held. My belief was the PIKO and the ESU MC2 are the same thing.

If i restart the old control box the 59113 finds its straight away so its all working. Now when i add the big ECoS to the picture (and put away the power unit that came with the PIKO hand held) that's where my problems start. They don't find each other.

 

Ive deleted old network and when i click the 3 dots im only getting "DEMO MODE' as an option.

 

I may be working under the illusion they can speak to each other at all ? from my research the PIKO was available in EU before ESU version but they are the same hardware (identical) and run the same app. 

From Phaetons answer above I'm pretty sure now there are two DHCP's on my network - the sky router and the DECO mesh system. Both are running separate DHCP identity. Ive just checked and the DECO can be switch to AP mode which should mean - if i understood it correctly - that there is only one DHCP address at work (the Sky router).

I will switch it all off (prepares for family outrage) and restart the DECO in AP mode - see what happens - it can be undone.

Of course if the PIKO doesn't play with the ECoS im wasting my time but im pretty sure it does.

Thanks again, seen your ESU posts before so im in good hands.

 

 

 

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So switching to one DHCP hasn't changed anything. Ive seen some old posts on the forum questioning compatibility between ECoS and the PIKO controller. I could only see that it was unresolved.....that was sometime ago. Do i have a compatibility issue ? Have ESU and PIKO put something in the software to stop them connecting ?

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As you say its a PIKO unit.....I suspect its missing the ESU input service......so I suspect a software upgrade will be needed....but I have my doubts that it will work....and could well brick the device...

 

I think a full install will be needed....you will need info from ESU on this

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I have never heard of anyone trying to use a Piko SmartControl handset with an ECoS as if it were a Mobile Control II.

 

Whilst the Piko SmartControl appears to be identical to the ESU Mobile Control II in terms of the hardware, and the appearance of the Piko SmartControl app looks like the ESU Mobile Control app, and the Piko SmartControl app seems to have the same vversion numbers as teh early versions of the ESU Mobile Control, that doesn't mean that they are interchangeable, as you seem to have proved.  There might be a software bar in the SmartControl app to stop it connecting to an ECoS, or there might be something in the ECoS firmware to stop it accepting a connection from the Piko SmartControl app.

 

What you need is to be able to install the ESU Mobile Control II app on to the Piko SmartControl handset as if it were any other Android app. But ESU don't publish the Mobile Control II app on the Google Play Store, and their MC2 update Windows program can, as far as I know, only be used to update the app on ESU branded Mobile Control II. I don't know if anyone has been able to use the ESU MC2 update program to install the ESU MC2 app on a SmartControl or update it to the latest ESU version.

 

RonRonRon of this parish might know more as he has a Piko SmartControl.

 

The only thing that I can suggest is that if you have the Piko SmartBox, that you connect its Main Track out to the ECoS's sniffer port and use it that way. See section 19 of the ECoS manual on using the sniffer port.

 

I'm not sure about the timing, but I think that the ESU Mobile Control II was announced before the Piko SmartControl was released. The MC2 didn't go on sale until October/November 2015.

 

The ESU "version" of the Piko SmartControl, the ESU CabControl definitely came after the SmartControl, but it is only available from ESU dealers in N. America and Australia. The CabControl handset is a Mobile Control II and as far as I know is identical.

 

Piko seem to have given up on supporting the SmartControl and SmartBox as they don't seem to have received the Piko equivalent of ESU's most recent updates to the MC2 app nor to the SmartBox Firmware.

Edited by GoingUnderground
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14 minutes ago, pheaton said:

As you say its a PIKO unit.....I suspect its missing the ESU input service......so I suspect a software upgrade will be needed....but I have my doubts that it will work....and could well brick the device...

 

I think a full install will be needed....you will need info from ESU on this

 

I just had a go at updating the software by trying to download the update on a 15 year old Dell laptop - its the only thing in the house with microsoft on it. Downloaded the software (eventually) but couldn't get that update back on to the handheld. Wanted device drivers. So close....

 

I have updated this previously (via google play i think?? was a long time back) I previously managed to delete the PIKO app and then downloaded the ESU app to replace it - the front image is different but the guts looked the same. It worked as far as controlling trains went which is why i thought it was all the same.

 

Im wondering if i leave it linked to the original control unit (works fine) and instead link that unit to the ECoS with the necessary cable (there's a picture of that setup on the box - sniffer port i think). Get an amps boost as well. 

 

(Goingunderground - your post came through as i was typing that last bit !!!

 

Failing that like you said its a question for ESU. 

Thank you all for taking the time to reply to my question. Very kind.

 

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ESU have very, very  vaguely hinted that there might be the very remote and very distant possibility of the SmartControl and SmartBox being supported by them, much the same way as they took over support for, and still do support, the Maerklin Central Station 1 through their CS1 Reloaded firmware upgrade.

 

But it was only the merest and vaguest of hints about the SmartControl/SmartBox. So I definitely wouldn't count on it happening as it may well depend on the contractual relationship between ESU and Piko, and that might give Piko a veto over such a move. 

 

All you can do is wait and watch.

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Cheers underground - Nothing simple is it LOL not helped by my choices of increasing complexity.

I couldn't be happier with the big command centre. Its a great piece of kit. Im running everything through it. 

I just had the PIKO from my old (much smaller) layout and i could see some benefits in linking them up (control from a more mobile position). 

Like you said, wait and see. Cheers

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Incidentally, Piko 59113 was the complete SmartControl DB Freight starter set, http://www.dcctrainautomation.co.uk/piko-59113-smartcontrol-dbag-freight-starter-set-vi-dcc-sound.html not just the SmartControl handset. Apologies, I should have checked before replying when I realised that there was no ESU 59113, but the similarity to the ESU MC2 part number 50113 made me think that your 59113 was a simple typo.

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On 16/02/2021 at 13:44, GoingUnderground said:

Incidentally, Piko 59113 was the complete SmartControl DB Freight starter set, http://www.dcctrainautomation.co.uk/piko-59113-smartcontrol-dbag-freight-starter-set-vi-dcc-sound.html not just the SmartControl handset. Apologies, I should have checked before replying when I realised that there was no ESU 59113, but the similarity to the ESU MC2 part number 50113 made me think that your 59113 was a simple typo.

 

No i should have been more clear. No apology needed on your part, your helping me !!

I had a 2nd thought about how to get around the problem. There is ECOSlink ports on both the PIKO smart control box and of course the ESU ECoS.

If you join an ESU ECoS to an ESU Boost (looks like the PIKO smart box) its 7 pin on the command centre and 6 pin on the boost. The ESU cable is 7 to 6 pin and they say you can join those 2 bits of kit. Great i thought....

However, the PIKO smart box is also 7 pin !!

I can purchase a 7 pin to 7 pin cable but i have no idea if that's going to work, do nothing or cause a problem. Really don't want to mess up my command centre.

 

Worth a punt or do you think there is no way ESU and PIKO 'speaking' to each other and im wasting my time?

 

PS - yes the 59113 is a controller, track, locos...full german train set.

 

Edited by Norski
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1 hour ago, Norski said:

 

No i should have been more clear. No apology needed on your part, your helping me !!

I had a 2nd thought about how to get around the problem. There is ECOSlink ports on both the PIKO smart control box and of course the ESU ECoS.

If you join an ESU ECoS to an ESU Boost (looks like the PIKO smart box) its 7 pin on the command centre and 6 pin on the boost. The ESU cable is 7 to 6 pin and they say you can join those 2 bits of kit. Great i thought....

However, the PIKO smart box is also 7 pin !!

I can purchase a 7 pin to 7 pin cable but i have no idea if that's going to work, do nothing or cause a problem. Really don't want to mess up my command centre.

 

Worth a punt or do you think there is no way ESU and PIKO 'speaking' to each other and im wasting my time?

 

PS - yes the 59113 is a controller, track, locos...full german train set.

 

Forget it. You're wasting your time.

 

The ECosLink bus has master and subsidiary devices. Masters have 7 pin sockets, subsidiaries 6 pin sockets, as you've already noticed. If ESU intended us to be able to connect Masters to Masters then they'd sell a 7 to 7 pin cable. I strongly advise against buying or trying to make up your own 7 to 7 cable as, as far as I know, ESU has not published the pin-outs, and you risk doing serious damage to both devices if you try. And don't try using the 6 pin AUX socket on the ECoS. ESU introduced that with the ECoS 2 saying that it was for future developments, but we're still waiting for thse future developments, and they've never published the pin-outs. Even if you didn't break anything,  the ECoS would not recognise the other device as its firmware hasn't been designed to work with other Master devices.

 

I am in a similar position myself, as I have an original ECoS 1 and also an ECoS 2, and I'd love to be able to use the 1 as a booster or as extra throttles sharing a common loco database with the 2, but I can't. ECoS owners have been asking ESU for that capability for as long as I've owned an ECoS, which is over 10 years. ESU have said that it would need a change to the ECoS firmware to allow it, but, as yet, they haven't made the necessary changes. That's not to say that they won't, eventually, but  I wouldn't advise holding your breath waiting.

 

And, before you ask, using two L.Net modules won't work either as in such a configureation one of the Masters must be configured as a slave, and there is no way to configure an ECoS or a SmartBox or a CabControl ICU as a slave.

 

As I've already said, based on the current capabilities of the firmware installed on the ECoS, the Piko SmartBox and the ESU CabControl, using the sniffer port on the ECoS is the ONLY way to use a SmartControl system, or a CabControl ICU or a second ECoS  with an ECoS. The MC2 handset supplied as part of a CabControl set can be used with an ECoS because it is identical to the MC2 handsets sold separately.

Edited by GoingUnderground
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Now that is an explanation. I will sleep less stupid tonight LOL

Jokes aside, thank you so much for taking the time to explain that and stop me from doing any potential damage or wasting money on cables. You've clearly been waiting to link hardware far longer than me, such a shame that all those lovely ports can't be more freely utilised. Time to sell on the german train set methinks. 

 

I don't want to be negative on ESU because the ECoS is mind blowing. For someone coming back to model railways after a small break of 30 years i find the change in technology amazing. Im running locos, points, signals all off the command centre. Once you get used to its steps it is a joy to use....but such a shame i couldn't link the PIKO to it given what they both are 'under the bonnet'......

 

Cheers

Steve

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10 hours ago, Norski said:

I don't want to be negative on ESU because the ECoS is mind blowing. For someone coming back to model railways after a small break of 30 years i find the change in technology amazing. Im running locos, points, signals all off the command centre. Once you get used to its steps it is a joy to use....but such a shame i couldn't link the PIKO to it given what they both are 'under the bonnet'......

I would agree with you were it not for the fact that neither ESU nor Piko have ever claimed that the SmartControl system can be used with an ECoS.

 

As I've already said, you can interconnect them through the sniffer port, same as with a 2nd ECoS or any 3rd party DCC system, and use the SmartControl handset to control locos, and the ECoS track plan diagram for your points, signals and routes. If you do this, do NOT connect the SmartBox main track out to the layout, it's only connection should be to the sniffer port, and the ECoS main track out should be the only connection to the layout.

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13 hours ago, GoingUnderground said:

I would agree with you were it not for the fact that neither ESU nor Piko have ever claimed that the SmartControl system can be used with an ECoS.

 

As I've already said, you can interconnect them through the sniffer port, same as with a 2nd ECoS or any 3rd party DCC system, and use the SmartControl handset to control locos, and the ECoS track plan diagram for your points, signals and routes. If you do this, do NOT connect the SmartBox main track out to the layout, it's only connection should be to the sniffer port, and the ECoS main track out should be the only connection to the layout.

 

Ref that 2nd paragraph. Im still confused - sorry, really new to this. To confirm - i can connect the PIKO hand held to the PIKO smart box (wifi) as its meant to be and the PIKO smart box to the ECoS via the sniffer port on the ECoS?  The PIKO is treated and an add on other brand DCC system.

This way i can throttle locos on the hand held ? (which is all i really want to do with it). I can position myself about the layout then.

 

PS - point noted on only one controller feeding track

PPS - Apologies if you'd made this point already and id misunderstood. I REALLY appreciate your feedback and patience !

 

 

Edited by Norski
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17 hours ago, Norski said:

 

Ref that 2nd paragraph. Im still confused - sorry, really new to this. To confirm - i can connect the PIKO hand held to the PIKO smart box (wifi) as its meant to be and the PIKO smart box to the ECoS via the sniffer port on the ECoS?  The PIKO is treated and an add on other brand DCC system.

This way i can throttle locos on the hand held ? (which is all i really want to do with it). I can position myself about the layout then.

Yes. That is the purpose of the sniffer port, to let you do precisely that.

 

See section 8.8 in the ECoS manual on how to connect a 3rd Party DCC system to the sniffer port.

 

You will have to set up each loco on the SmartControl. Whatever address you give each loco on the SmartControl you need to set up that loco on the ECoS with that address as its sniffer address. In fact I suggest you use the same address as you are using on the ECoS.

 

For example, you may have a loco where the decoder address is 1357 and that's how it is set up on the ECoS. You need to set the sniffer address for that loco as 1357 as well. You must also set it up on the SmartControl with address 1357. In other words, the sniffer address on the ECoS for a specific loco must be the same address that you have set up for that loco on the SmartControl. If you later change the address of the decoder to, say 2468 you do not need to change the sniffer address on the ECoS or the address of the loco on the SmartControl. See section 11.2.3.3 and Chapter 19 in the ECoS manual.

 

Please remember that there is no exchange of data between the SmartBox and ECoS other than the DCC speed, direction and function action commands to the decoder being sent from the SmartBox to the ECoS. Therefore, you will need to set up each loco manually on the SmartControl, including function button symbols, loco icons, etc.  

Edited by GoingUnderground
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4 hours ago, GoingUnderground said:

Yes. That is the purpose of the sniffer port, to let you do precisely that.

 

See section 8.8 in the ECoS manual on how to connect a 3rd Party DCC system to the sniffer port.

 

You will have to set up each loco on the SmartControl. Whatever address you give each loco on the SmartControl you need to set up that loco on the ECoS with that address as its sniffer address. In fact I suggest you use the same address as you are using on the ECoS.

 

For example, you may have a loco where the decoder address is 1357 and that's how it is set up on the ECoS. You need to set the sniffer address for that loco as 1357 as well. You must also set it up on the SmartControl with address 1357. In other words, the sniffer address on the ECoS for a specific loco must be the same address that you have set up for that loco on the SmartControl. If you later change the address of the decoder to, say 2468 you do not need to change the sniffer address on the ECoS or the address of the loco on the SmartControl. See section 11.2.3.3 and Chapter 19 in the ECoS manual.

 

Please remember that there is no exchange of data between the SmartBox and ECoS other than the DCC speed, direction and function action commands to the decoder being sent from the SmartBox to the ECoS. Therefore, you will need to set up each loco manually on the SmartControl, including function button symbols, loco icons, etc.  

 

And we have lift Off !!!!!!  You are a star mate. Plugged it together earlier and nothing happened. Of course if you treat it as two separate systems 'conversing' then they both have to have the same loco code !!!...So simple. Im just driving the Bachmann class 158 off the hand held with a big cheesy grin on my face...

 

I really can't thank you enough. If we ever cross paths one day i owe you a pint or two.

Great. Cheers.

Steve.

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