Odd Signal

[figworthy]

Reading the March 2021 edition of Steam Days, on page 24 there is an odd (to me) signal, or rather an odd attachment to it.  The picture is at Guisborough.

 

Attached to the post is a large diamond, possible 3ft along each edge, probably white in colour, in the centre of which is another diamond, possibly black about the same size as the signal post, and it looks as though there is a light next to it.  This board is in line with the track (i.e. at right angles to the signal arm), and is on the track side of the post.

 

Any suggestions as to what it might be ?

 

Adrian

[Pinza-C55]

I will check out that magazine in WH Smiths tomorrow if they are open but it sounds a bit like the LNER simplified board signalling scheme on the Pilmoor - Boroughbridge - Knaresborough line in the 1930s ?

[iands]

Just wondered if it was(is) some sort of fixed marker in connection with propelling trains out of the station along the branch to Hutton Junction? Had a look in A History of North Eastern Railway Signalling and a couple of Sectional Appendices/Supplementary Operating Instructions on the Limit of Shunt site but can't see any reference to it. Bit of a mystery.

Edited February 17, 2021 by iands
Corrected Junction name.

[beast66606]

Whats the date of the photo ?

 

Which signal is it ?

[iands]

6 minutes ago, beast66606 said:

Whats the date of the photo ?

 

Which signal is it ?

Hi Dave,

The cation just states "during the 1950s". No signal number, but obviously a "starting" signal from the station platform.

 

Having re-read the caption again, I'm wondering, rather than for propelling "out" of the station, it is perhaps a kind of "stop marker" for train that have been propelled "into" the station?

[beast66606]

Are we talking about the notice to the left of the signal post here ?

 

[beast66606]

 

[iands]

Just now, beast66606 said:

Are we talking about the notice to the left of the signal post here ?

 

No, sorry Dave. Don't want to infringe photo copyright so can't post a copy here. To best describe what is shown in the photo, there is a picture of an A8 propelling a train out of Guisborough station (although the station is out of shot). The train has just passed a bracket signal (still showing "off"). Attached to the signal post, at about cab height, is a diamond shaped board (approx dimensions described in OP). Could be white or yellow, with a smaller diamond in the centre, again could be black or perhaps red. On the top-right straight edge of the diamond is a small bracket supporting a lamp (might be a white light).

[iands]

2 minutes ago, beast66606 said:

 

Hi Dave, the John Boyes photo is obviously of a later date when some rationalisation has taken place. However, the Steam Days photo shows the A8 propelling out of the platform passed the signal in your shot. Clearly the signal has been changed as it was a wooden bracket serving both platforms.

[beast66606]

Found a photo

 

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/g/guisborough/index4.shtml

[iands]

10 minutes ago, beast66606 said:

Found a photo

 

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/g/guisborough/index4.shtml

That's the one Dave. I should have said that the diamond shaped board is facing the track is in the photo you've found. I'm convinced now that it is a stop marker for trains propelling into the station.

[Nearholmer]

Seems odd that it needed a stopping-marker, given that its fixed to a signal-post that would perform that function perfectly well.

 

Did the LNER have a standard 'stop mark' sign, which it applied, needed or not?

[iands]

26 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Seems odd that it needed a stopping-marker, given that its fixed to a signal-post that would perform that function perfectly well.

 

Did the LNER have a standard 'stop mark' sign, which it applied, needed or not?

Fair point. As for LNER having a standard stop marker, I don't know. But I'll try and find out.

[beast66606]

Looks to have a lamp associated with it and possibly a mechanism although the rear view I posted makes it very hard to be sure of the mech - if it was swingable it might be a shunt indicator for the siding move as there doesn't appear to be a disc of any form and as it's on the main post it could apply to either road.

[Nearholmer]

Could it somehow act as a "backing signal" for trains reversing out of the platform in order to run-round? Seems a bit far-fetched, but .............

[iands]

7 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Could it somehow act as a "backing signal" for trains reversing out of the platform in order to run-round? Seems a bit far-fetched, but .............

From what I read there are no run-round facilities, hence the reason for some trains (that came in engine first) to propel all the way back to Hutton Junction, then proceed normally (engine first).

[Nearholmer]

The 25" maps seems to show crossovers that would permit running-round, but 'disused stations' makes mention of special rules that allowed trains to propel back to the junction, then carry on forward.

 

A sign/signal somehow associated with that?

 

Sectional Appendix anyone?

[iands]

9 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

The 25" maps seems to show crossovers that would permit running-round, but 'disused stations' makes mention of special rules that allowed trains to propel back to the junction, then carry on forward.

 

A sign/signal somehow associated with that?

 

Sectional Appendix anyone?

I've had a look in the SAs and Supplementary Operating Instructions for the period (1950s), nothing mentioned about the "board" in either. If I read it correctly, it states that "Guisborough station" (I assume the SB) is not a block post (at least by the 1950s). That begs the question under what authority trains left the station?

 

The point regarding "propelling" trains out of the station is made in the caption associated with the photo in Steam Days.

[beast66606]

26 minutes ago, iands said:

I've had a look in the SAs and Supplementary Operating Instructions for the period (1950s), nothing mentioned about the "board" in either. If I read it correctly, it states that "Guisborough station" (I assume the SB) is not a block post (at least by the 1950s). That begs the question under what authority trains left the station?

 

The point regarding "propelling" trains out of the station is made in the caption associated with the photo in Steam Days.

 

At least one of the photos I looked at appeared to have inbound and outbound signals off so I presume the station box could switch out. At the time of the tubular steel signal a shunt signal was also present for shunt moves, hence my reasoning about the strange board being a form of shunt signal although I think it was in invisible ink as a further post more or less repeated my thoughts.

[Nearholmer]

‘Disused stations’ says that latterly the line was operated as two parallel single-track lines, one goods, one passenger, so presumably ‘one engine in steam’ on each, and no need for running signals at the terminus, but it’s clear that things changed over time.

 

Its not a board to tell drivers whether or not OES is in operation is it? (Another wild guess that)

 

 

Edited February 17, 2021 by Nearholmer

[iands]

4 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

‘Disused stations’ says that latterly the line was operated as two parallel single-track lines, one goods, one passenger, so presumably ‘one engine in steam’ on each, and no need for running signals at the terminus, but it’s clear that things changed over time.

 

Its not a board to tell drivers whether or not OES is in operation is it? (Another wild guess that)

 

 

Another interesting point regarding possible OES. One problem I have is trying to fit 1950s/60s photos and SAs with an early 1900s track layout. Obviously much had changed in the intervening years. I have aske a question of someone I know involved with the NERA, so he may be able to help with some info.

[iands]

I might have found an answer.

 

I looked back a bit earlier to a 1947 Sectional Appendix, and found the following statement, according to (c), it is a Stop Board:

 

"GUISBOROUGH. PROPELLING OF PASSENGER TRAINS :—A marker board Is provided for the guidance of Drivers with the word SEVEN painted on it, and is situated near the Platform Starting signal. Passenger trains may be propelled between Guisborough Signal Box and Guisborough Station provided that :— The Guard rides in the leading vehicle, which must be one In which he has access to the automatic brake. The speed does not exceed 10 miles per hour. When propelling into the station— (a) the train does not exceed seven bogie vehicles, or 420 feet in length (b) the platform line is clear to the buffer stop (c) the Driver brings the engine to rest with the cab opposite the marker board when propelling a train of seven bogie vehicles or 420 feet in length into the station. When propelling less, the train may be set back into the station a corresponding distance past the marker board."

 

Although the above statement says a board with the word SEVEN on it, the photo in Steam Days doesn't show any wording on the board, only a diamond shape. I assume by the time of the photo, the board had been renewed with the use of symbols being adopted rather than "wording".

 

 

[Nearholmer]

Sounds like it.

 

I’d hate to have been the driver with eight on who forgot.

 

Stills begs the question ‘why bother?’ Given that the post could do the same job, but there we are.

[beast66606]

6 minutes ago, iands said:

I might have found an answer.

 

I looked back a bit earlier to a 1947 Sectional Appendix, and found the following statement, according to (c), it is a Stop Board:

 

"GUISBOROUGH. PROPELLING OF PASSENGER TRAINS :—A marker board Is provided for the guidance of Drivers with the word SEVEN painted on it, and is situated near the Platform Starting signal. Passenger trains may be propelled between Guisborough Signal Box and Guisborough Station provided that :— The Guard rides in the leading vehicle, which must be one In which he has access to the automatic brake. The speed does not exceed 10 miles per hour. When propelling into the station— (a) the train does not exceed seven bogie vehicles, or 420 feet in length (b) the platform line is clear to the buffer stop (c) the Driver brings the engine to rest with the cab opposite the marker board when propelling a train of seven bogie vehicles or 420 feet in length into the station. When propelling less, the train may be set back into the station a corresponding distance past the marker board."

 

Although the above statement says a board with the word SEVEN on it, the photo in Steam Days doesn't show any wording on the board, only a diamond shape. I assume by the time of the photo, the board had been renewed with the use of symbols being adopted rather than "wording".

 

 

 

Hence the lamp - so it's visible during darkness.

 

Presumably it was felt necessary due to visibilty at the buffer stop end. During the move the guard could bring the train to a stop with the brake in emergencies, the driver would normally stop the train as he knew it wouldn't hit the stops as long as he didn't pass the board. When diesels (and/or single line working) arrived there was no need to run round so such shunt moves weren't needed.  The board was not replaced when the signal was renewed, or it was removed with diesels / single lining / change of traffic . The loss of 7 was probably because that number was not necessarily applicable to all vehicle types so a symbol was used instead.

 

The disused stations link I posted has a clue when it talks about 7 coach trains, but not enough info to make 2+2 = 4

[figworthy]

Thanks for the suggestions.

 

Adrian