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OO Works announce LSWR/SR Adams Jubilee 0-4-2


PrestburyJack
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OO Works have announced their latest locomotive, a LSWR/SR Adams Jubilee 0-4-2

 

image.png.58db930a11ffabe16d203dba69363d3b.png

 

LSWR Holly Green Lined Nº631   £315.00 + P&P - Now Taking Orders.

 

SR Olive Green Lined Nº598   £315 + P&P - Now Taking Orders.

 

SR/BR Black (Sunshine) Nº629   £298 + P&P - Now Taking Orders.

 

Due Summer 2021

 

From the OO Works website:

 

https://ooworks.co.uk/

 

Adams A12 class 0-4-2 ‘Jubilees’.

 

These where mixed traffic locomotives with the first engine completed in May 1887, the 50th year Jubilee of the Queen Victoria’s reign.

 

With a total on ninety being built between 1887 and 1895 at Nine Elms and forty by Nielson & Co Glasgow, making them the largest Adams class of all the British 0-4-2s.

 

These where based at Nine Elms, Guildford, Basingstoke, Yeovil, Exmouth Junction, Strawberry Hill, Salisbury, Wadebridge and Plymouth, they proved successful and popular.

 

The most noticeable change was when Drummond chimney where fitted from 1900 onwards to most of the class, although a few still has their original stove pipe chimney into the 1920s.

 

K10 and L11 4-4-0s took over many of the Jubilees duties but many crews still preferred the Jubilees which were more economical locomotives burning less coal per mile then their successors, they also had a higher yearly mileage.

 

By the 1920s the Jubilees where seen mainly on branch line work, pick-up goods and shunting duties.

At the 1923 grouping, all ninety Jubilees where still in service and remained until 1928 when the first six being withdrawn and broken up which continued through the following years and became the last serving 0-4-2s on Britain’s railways.

 

618, 627, 629 & 636 entered into British Railways stock in 1948 but where not renumbered and kept their Southern lettering with 629 being the last one in general service, ending its days shunting at Eastleigh and was withdrawn in November 1948.

 

There was one other to exist longer in departmental use supplying steam to Eastleigh boiler yard as DS3191 (Ex612) until November 1951.

Unfortunately, none of these good-looking Jubilees made it into preservation.

 

From Prestburyjack -

No connection other than as a satisfied customer.

 

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Edited by PrestburyJack
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I am very pleased to read this news as I am modelling the Swanage Railway.  Several Jubilees were allocated to Bournemouth and in the years leading up to World War l were frequently used on the Swanage Railway.  I am doubtful if the LSWR painted them holly green as the company mainly used this livery for goods engines whereas the A12 was used for semi-fast passenger services, fast freights and van trains.  A picture on plate 2 of HMRS Livery Register no 3 LSWR and Southern shows an A12 class 0-4-2T in Drummond passenger livery at Exeter in 1914 with some open wagons.  Drummond green was a lighter shade of green than holly green.

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The late 19th Century was a period of rapid development in coach design and it was possible to see trains with four, six and eight wheels in the same train.  A couple of pictures on page 17 of London & South Western Railway Miscellany by John Scott-Morgan may illustrate this point.  The top picture shows Jubilee class locomotive no 552 in the early 1890s with a train of Panter non-corridor bogie stock but the leading coach is a six-wheeler.  The bottom picture shows Adams radial no 427 with a rake of four- and six-wheeler stock in 1890.  

 

After 1900 it looks like most passenger trains were made up of bogie non-corridor coaches.

 

 

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On 15/02/2021 at 22:09, PrestburyJack said:

By the 1920s the Jubilees where seen mainly on branch line work, pick-up goods and shunting duties.

At the 1923 grouping, all ninety Jubilees where still in service and remained until 1928 when the first six being withdrawn and broken up which continued through the following years and became the last serving 0-4-2s on Britain’s railways.

 

618, 627, 629 & 636 entered into British Railways stock in 1948 but where not renumbered and kept their Southern lettering with 629 being the last one in general service, ending its days shunting at Eastleigh and was withdrawn in November 1948.

 

 

Oddly enough, I'm just browsing through my latest book purchase, "The Melbourne Military Railway and the Derby to Ashby branch. Part 2" (Mike Christensen) and a pair of Jubilees, Nos. 614 and the aforementioned 618, spent part of the Second World War in Derbyshire, having been amongst four hired by the WD in April/May 1942- the others being 625 and 638.

 

618 was apparently first sent to Longmoor, then transferred to Melbourne at the end of '42. They appear to have left Melbourne by the autumn of 1943, as they're not included in a list of locos noted  on the line by a visitor in October '43.

 

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Now here is a question for those that have knowledge of  the different liveries that were applied to the Adams Jubilees by the LSWR up to the Grouping.

By the looks of all the photos in Bradley of the Adams Classes it appears that the locos were either in Adams Pea Green at first with black and white lining. When Drummond took over they were painted in Drummond's Royal Green with brown, black and white lining .  I can't see any photos or reference to the Holly Green with light green lining used on these locos as it was a goods loco livery .

Cheers,

Chris

 

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9 hours ago, PrestburyJack said:

I've received the following from Rebecca at OO Works:

 

the holly Green with Pea green lining was the main mixed traffic livery from around 1905-1923.

there is nice pictures of locomotives in the "Locomotive Illustrated book No 111.

It may have been the main mixed traffic livery for that period but I have not seen any photos of Jubilees in Holly Green. Maybe the photo that appears in Locomotives Illustrated No. 111 is an exception as there are very many photos of them in Adams Pea Green and Drummond Royal Green. One even hauled Queen Victoria's funeral train and I am quite certain that loco would not be in Goods loco livery. The Holly green with pea green lining was a goods loco livery. 

Cheers,

Chris

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On 23/02/2021 at 17:48, PrestburyJack said:

the holly Green with Pea green lining was the main mixed traffic livery from around 1905-1923.

 

15 hours ago, mvrnut said:

One even hauled Queen Victoria's funeral train and I am quite certain that loco would not be in Goods loco livery.

She died in 1901, so these statements are not contradictory.

I infer from what Rebecca wrote that this model represents a post war loco, the implication is that by then it would have been painted holly green. Are there any photos of one in Urie green?

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On 24/02/2021 at 18:41, Nile said:

 

I infer from what Rebecca wrote that this model represents a post war loco, the implication is that by then it would have been painted holly green. Are there any photos of one in Urie green?

 

I suspect that must be the case.

 

While some mixed traffic types seem to have worn Holly Green earlier - e.g. Adams's Class 380 'Steamroller' 4-4-0 - I don't recall any A12s in that livery in either Big or RCTS Bradley, but I'll dust them off and check.  I don't model the LSWR later than 1914, so haven't focused on later LSW liveries. 

 

Below is the Drummond passenger livery.  The easiest way to spot it in black and white is the black band lined either side with white, inboard of the chocolate border.  

 

632737636_LSWRA12638.jpg.2d1d973b9c4cda699cb324dde505f913.jpg.1a59f8e53.jpg.e7e3312b010c49a6aa43e843373091d6.jpg

 

This contrasts with the early '20s view (below), where the lining is a single line with a black border. 

 

Now, this could represent light green lining with black borders and Holly green.  That seems to be what the OO Works' model is to represent. In which case, that's Drummond Goods livery.

 

Alternatively, it could represent the white lining, black border and Holly green that I understand Urie applied (save between late 1917 and Armistice/1919, when lining was omitted). I rely on Bradley's livery notes here.

 

Now, I'm sceptical that Drummond goods livery (Holly green with light green lining) was ever applied to Jubilees, so that leaves Urie Holly Green (lined white), unless Maunsell reinstated the Drummond light green lining with the Urie Holly green, that Bradley says was in use until November 1923? I have not read that this was so, and I note that Maunsell subsequently gave them his SR passenger livery, so the transition seems to be from Urie Holly green lined white with black borders to Maunsell olive green lined white with black borders, with the possibility of any class members repainted 1917-19 being in unlined Holly green at Grouping.

 

I'm presently struggling to see why there would be an A12 in light green lined Holly green at any stage, but, again, late pre-Grouping is not something I know much about! Can anyone clarify?

 

1600144498_LSWRA12618StrawberryHillearly1920s2.jpg.5cb3cef7531584bba687919c9ebf8fa4.jpg

 

As I don't model the LSW post WWI, I'm fairly confident that I will be spared an outlay of £315. Phew!

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Edwardian
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As a foreigner where the LSWR / Southern is concerned, the conclusion I'm drawing is that OO Works have announced a livery that is a possible but not probable interpretation of the monochrome photographic evidence, a livery that may have been applied to some (not many) class members over a restricted period. This seems unfortunate; surely it would be better to have chosen a fully-authenticated livery that was applied over a longer period? (Especially for a model that is expensive by 00 RTR standards.)

 

That said, I've bought a Bachmann Midland 1532 Class 0-4-4T that has been produced in an unusual (but authenticated) transitional livery, with a view to modification. But that was only just over a third of the price of this model.

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Has anyone enquired directly about the livery issue? I might be tempted by an LSWR example, purely because it's very pretty, but wouldn't consider myself sufficiently invested or knowledgable to take up the issue personally. If it turns up in a very unlikely livery then I'd be very hard pressed to spend this kind of money, but then again OO Works products do always seem to sell out before they even arrive so it'll be a tough one to judge unfortunately.

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2 minutes ago, Nile said:

See the post dated 23 Feb. 

 

Ah yes, but it's that statement from OO Works that is being challenged. The suspicion has to be that OO Works haven't thought this through properly and may even have misinterpreted the photographic evidence. There really ought to be a formal process of peer review for RTR products!

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1 hour ago, Nile said:

Their last few LSWR models have been in Holly green, they must still have plenty of it to use up.

 

Hmm, I note this statement is on the OO Works website:

 

The LSWR Holly Green with Pea Green lining was the main mixed traffic livery from around 1905/1923.   There are pictures of the loco's in this livery in "Locomotives Illustrated" No111.  This livery was also applied on the K-10s From new, which where also Built around 1905

 

Well, I don't have LI 111 - 0-4-2s generally, so lots of good stuff - so I've ordered it and we'll see.

 

In the meantime, my response to that statement would be almost every part of it appears to be incorrect:

 

- There was no specifically 'mixed traffic' livery so far as I have read.

 

- There was no single goods or "mixed traffic" livery for the period 1905-1923, and, post Drummond (end 1912), the livery was not as OO Works describe it.

 

Rather:  

 

- Drummond goods livery (applied 1895-1912) was Holly green, lined light green (the livery described above)


- Drummond goods livery may have been applied to mixed traffic types*.  The questions are, which types and from when?** 

 

- Urie goods livery (applied some point from 1912 to 1923) Bradley describes as Holly green lined white. 

 

- Thus, according to Bradley, there was no single Holly green livery applied c.1905-1923.  Rather, there were 3 goods liveries:

 

1. Drummond Holly green lined light green (from 1895)

 

2. Urie Holly green lined white (c.1912-1917 and 1919-1923)

 

3. Urie Holly green unlined (1917-1919)

 

- Urie passenger livery:

 

1.  1912-1917: Continued in the Drummond style with a change of green shade to "sage" in 1915 and the loss of the chocolate borders and (I should guess, double lining) 1917.

 

2. Thus, 1917-1923, "sage" (actually olive in shade according to Bradley) green, with black border and single white lining.  Bradley notes that the Urie colour was darker than Drummond's Royal green. 

 

Thus, it must be fairly difficult, in black and white photographs, to distinguish between Urie goods livery and his post 1917 passenger livery.  Both appear to have the same lining scheme, just a difference in the shade of green. 

 

I have seen pictures of A12s dated to the early '20s, lettered LSWR and lined with single line, black border.  Logically, however, these should be in the white lining of Urie, so. offer no evidence that A12s wore Holly green with light green lining at any stage of their careers, post or pre the Great War.

 

Further, how do we know that any of these post-war A12s were wearing Holly green as opposed to Urie passenger green with white lining? 

 

The challenge, then, is this: Can anyone produce a picture of an A12 with single line goods lining dating from c.1905 to 1912?  I have not seen one.  I have see many pictures of them in Drummond passenger livery.

 

In relation to post Great War pictures of A12s, can anyone say these are in Holly green as opposed to the olive of Urie passenger green?   Even if Holly green, they would surely have white, not green lining, so the OO Works livery is still wrong.

 

From what I have so far seen and read, in the absence of evIdence to the contrary coming to light, I'm bound to conclude provisionally that Holly green with light green lining was not worn by this class at any point

 

As I've said earlier, late pre-Grouping is not an area I know much about, so if a correction to what I've said is necessary, I would welcome it.

 

EDIT: Rather than me winging it, I wonder if someone like Graham Muz and his compatriots in the SW Circle could tell us, and OO works, what they think the correct position is?

 

* The application of goods green may make sense at the time of the introduction of Drummond 4-4-0 mixed traffic types in the early 1900s, when they were intended to displace the A12s on such work. It does not follow that the A12s were so treated and I have neither read nor seen anything to suggest they were. 

 

** The Drummond mixed traffic types are pictured in double passenger lining when new, and there is nothing to distinguish them from other Drummond classes finished in Royal green.  The only pictures showing a single line lining scheme appear to be post-WWI.

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, PenrithBeacon said:

I thought the Jubilee was a mixed traffic type. I've certainly seen photos of them on cross London mixed freights. Perhaps an assumption too far.

 

Yes.

 

It does not necessarily follow that they were painted in goods livery.

 

All photographs I have seen of A12s in Drummond days show his passenger livery.  Drummonds K10, L11 and S11 mixed traffic 4-4-0s all seem to have been outshopped in his passenger livery.

 

Post war photographs show a single line with black border, but that is consistent with both Urie's passenger and his goods liveries. 

 

So, what livery is this?

 

1457847774_LSWRA12653.jpg.467a356450ba587bbcbf2500818aa584.jpg

 

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Is there a reliable date for this photograph?

 

Not that I have come across.

 

For contrast, here is a Class 700, a Drummond loco in Drummond goods livery; Holly green with light green lining.

 

If you find a Drummond-era A12 that looks like it's in this livery, I will be happy to hear from you!  I haven't so far. 

 

Picture2.png.12d65515aff77568862380b6db85ebd6.png

 

Two views of No. 618 given as 1920s (Strawberry Hill)

 

1766884391_LSWRA12618StrawberryHillearly1920s2.jpg.c811f4cb24cb20dab2a8d967ab08d2fa.jpg

 

1753959797_LSWRA12618StrawberryHillearly1920s.jpg.6d536914ab94edc9bf35736ea1b4b948.jpg

 

This one of 613 is also undated, so far as I know:

 

1235641257_LSWRA12613.jpg.a81f86af29e275d9f417251ef1e08eec.jpg

 

This picture of 644 is given as 1921, and, somewhat surprisingly, she seems to have retained the splasher-sandbox beading:

 

646598138_LSWRA12644StrawberryHill1921.jpg.c4696d037f4b4a12179f54cbd6bca3f7.jpg

 

 

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39 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

The double-lining of the boiler bands on the Drummond goods-liveried 700 is distinctive.

 

Nice lot of Stephenson Clarke wagons in the background of several of those photos.

 

Yes, that echo of the passenger livery band lining struck me, too.

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4 hours ago, Edwardian said:

 

Picture2.png.12d65515aff77568862380b6db85ebd6.png

 

 

This is a lovely looking loco, sadly the wrong scale for me , what I wanted to ask and pardon my ignorance if it’s obvious to the rest of you;

The Drummond 0-6-0 pictured above, appears to have “S W R” on the tender, was this common, please?

Thanks,

John.

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31 minutes ago, Allegheny1600 said:

This is a lovely looking loco, sadly the wrong scale for me , what I wanted to ask and pardon my ignorance if it’s obvious to the rest of you;

The Drummond 0-6-0 pictured above, appears to have “S W R” on the tender, was this common, please?

Thanks,

John.

 

Together with the conical smoke box door, it was an early Drummond feature.  In 1897 a number of locos had S. W. R or S W R and a few L S W.  I think L S W R became standard from early 1898. 

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