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OO Works announce LSWR/SR Adams Jubilee 0-4-2


PrestburyJack
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The plot thickens ....

 

I picked up a copy of the Locomotives Illustrated cited on the OO Works website.  As expected, the Drummond era pictures show Drummond passenger lining on the A12s and the post Great War show Urie lining.  Regarding the Urie era, there is nothing, however, to indicate that the shade of green is the dark Holly goods green, rather than the rather olive "sage" green of the passenger livery.

 

I am inclined to think, though, that it is the passenger green I am seeing, as the A12s appear to have retained passenger livery under Drummond and under Maunsell, and it makes little sense to me that Urie would put them in goods green rather than passenger. I know some of the older mixed traffic types went into goods green, but I have seen nothing to support OO Works' view that the A12s did. 

 

Anyway, then I realised that I had been sitting on a copy of John Harvey's Southern Style volume.  Clearly I should have referred to this to begin with, as it appears to be the most recent (2014) and comprehensive treatment in print.  I wondered if I had not been over-dependent upon Bradley (1986).

 

Well, two things come out of that:

 

First, there is no mention of the lining of Holly green goods livery changing from light green under Drummond to white under Urie. Rather, Harvey describes the goods livery as running up to 1922. Both authors cannot be right on this point, so which one of them is?  

 

Second, this appears to be academic, however, as Harvey includes two shots of A12s (one "about 1920"), the other in 1923, which, he says, are in Urie passenger livery. 

 

20210308_111404.jpg

20210308_111444_003.jpg

 

To recapitulate on the shade, although described as "sage", Bradley puts this as darker than Drummond Royal Green.  Harvey comments "Of all the LSWR green shades, this has been the most difficult to resolve satisfactorily". The authors seem to agree that it was more yellow than Drummond's, and, hence, rather more olive. Harvey seems to wonder whether the was the contrast between Drummond and Urie green was not fairly slight.

 

Below is an N15 wearing the livery (also reproduced in Harvey):

 

20210308_111417.jpg

 

It is not impossible that Harvey could be wrong in identifying the green as the lighter of the two shades used under Urie.  It might be merely an assumption on his part. However, I don't have any grounds for dismissing his captions in favour of assuming Holly green is the colour I'm looking at.

 

Alternatively, it's not impossible, I suppose, that in some intermediary phase, one or more A12s came out in Holly green, but I can find no evidence of that so far, whereas I do have Harvey telling me that I am, indeed, seeing Urie's passenger green when I look at the numerous post-Great War A12s lined out in his style.

 

So, again, can anyone add anything to this?

 

 

Edited by Edwardian
photographs not behaving!
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27 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

It would be interesting to have a response from OO Works to @Edwardian's survey and interpretation of the literature (written and photographic).

 

Well, I did write, and the reply is that they are sticking to their guns. OO Works has not shared publically, or with me, any information specific to A12s in Holly green - showing if any of them went into goods green and, if so, when - but they did make the points:

 

- "In 1887 older engines Mixed traffic and Goods received holly Green (dark Green) and fine pea green lining" - I don't argue with that. One of the classes I'm interested in (for Barnstaple Town) is Class 380, one of the early Adams designs and mixed traffic.  These I have certainly seen pictured in good Holly green.  What I have not seen is either text or photograph suggesting the A12s were ever so treated. 

 

- And, echoing what is said on the OO Works website that "From about 1908 other mixed traffic locos also received this livery from new such as the K10, L11, S15 And H15".  As has been mentioned before, some of these classes were introduced before 1908 (IIRC it says 1905 on the OO Works website - but the same point applies) and, when new in the early1900s, the K10s and L11s certainly wore the Drummond passenger style, so I suspect this statement is not quite right.  The S15 (which was anyway a goods locomotive) and the H15 (mixed traffic) are both later Urie designs. Harvey does refer to an H15 appearing in goods green, but generally the authors don't say very much about classes that wore both passenger and goods liveries at differing times, so it does not preclude what OO Works says from being correct as to the general trend. Again, though, I have not come across anything to suggest A12s formed part of this trend.  

 

I suspect, then, that OO Works has taken these two points as the basis of an assumption that, at some unspecified point, A12s went into Holly Green goods livery.  From what I can tell from the published sources, however, this looks very much like adding two and two to make five.

 

The alternative is, of course, that OO Works know something I don't.  If they are basing their decision on the above two points, it's looking like their wrong.  Not only can I see no evidence for A12s in Holly green, but photographs show them in Drummond and Urie (given the Harvey captions) days in passenger livery. If OO Works have some, presumably unpublished, gen that trumps Bradley and Harvey, then they might yet prove to be correct, but, in that case, it would be really interesting and helpful to see it and complete my journey to enlightenment!   

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Edwardian
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I have been discussing the issue of the LSWR livery,  this is response based on those discussions, it is not the place of the South Western Circle to "Tell" manufacturers or others,  what I offer below is the considered opinion and understanding of a number of knowledgeable members or the SWC.

 

There were two types of A12, the A12 proper  numbered 527 to 556 had screw reverse and the valves below the cylinders whilst the later series 597-646, sometimes referred to as O4, had lever reverse and the valves between the cylinders.

The numbers choosen  by '00 works' are sensibly from the O4 series, that was the original A12s (that were also paired with a variety of secondhand tenders) were mostly withdrawn by 1931 whilst a few O4s survived to 1948.

 

We do not recognise a reference to  LSWR "Mixed Traffic" livery, there were either 'Goods' or 'Passenger' liveries. 

 

In LSWR and Southern days up to 1940, the A12s were always painted in passenger livery. The few of the later series which survived into the 1940s ended in Bulleid black.

 

They all started out in Adams pea green with black edging and a single white line. From 1896, livery became Drummond "royal" green with purple brown edging and white-black-white lining and from about 1916, Urie's olive green with black edging and a single white line. In Southern days, this livery was continued but the green got darker from about 1925. The other main changes were that the Adams brass number plates were replaced by transfer numerals from about 1905 and Drummond chimneys began to replace the Adams stovepipes shortly after.

 

Edited by Graham_Muz
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5 minutes ago, Graham_Muz said:

 

We do not recognise a reference to  LSWR "Mixed Traffic" livery, there were either 'Goods' or 'Passenger' liveries. 

 

In LSWR and Southern days up to 1940, the A12s were always painted in passenger livery. The few of the later series which survived into the 1940s ended in Bulleid black.

 

They all started out in Adams pea green with black edging and a single white line. From 1896, livery became Drummond "royal" green with purple brown edging and white-black-white lining and from about 1916, Urie's olive green with black edging and a single white line. In Southern days, this livery was continued but the green got darker from about 1925. The other main changes were that the Adams brass number plates were replaced by transfer numerals from about 1905 and Drummond chimneys began to replace the Adams stovepipes shortly after.

 

 

Helpful. Aside from Bradley placing the Urie lining on passenger classes to 1917, as opposed to 'about 1916', an inconsequential matter, the above is exactly as I have understood the published sources on the question of livery for the period in question. So I suspect that answers any remaining doubt. Holly green is not correct for the A12. 

 

Often I read that Drummond chimneys come in earlier on the A12s, but there are plenty of examples of Drummond livery Jubilees with various types of stovepipe. I've also read that the cast plates were superseded from 1903, but, again, a minor discrepancy and the 1905 date may pertain to A12s as opposed to other classes.  There is also some discrepancy as to when brass splasher/sandbox beading was removed from various series. Tenders seem to be a particular minefield for this class. Well, as they say, always work from a photograph of your chosen locomotive where possible!

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I think the solution is for potential purchasers to email OO Works and say they are disappointed that they are not in the correct livery, and hence we wont be purchasing them - although ones in the correct passenger livery would be welcome. They may well change their mind, 

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35 minutes ago, JohnR said:

I think the solution is for potential purchasers to email OO Works and say they are disappointed that they are not in the correct livery, and hence we wont be purchasing them - although ones in the correct passenger livery would be welcome. They may well change their mind, 

 

Hopefully this episode is an instance of timely feedback; I'm guessing from the release date that these are not in the paint shop yet. 

 

Having a foot in both camps, I have a keen sense of how frustrating it can be for manufacturers to receive critical feedback, but it is useful where something that can be changed is caught in time, as I hope, would be the case here. I have, as I say, put the point to OO Works. 

 

With Graham's post, I think it is clear that the South Western cognoscenti consider that the A12s should be in passenger livery. 

 

Logically it should be possible to find an example of A12 with Drummond chimney in Drummond livery with cab-side numerals (though funnily enough, I don't recall seeing a picture of one), but I assume that OO Works would not wish to attempt such a complex livery. 

 

If aiming for the post-WWI spot, as I suspect is the case here, the simpler Urie passenger scheme is what I think customers should expect in place of the Holly green announced.  Hopefully would-be customers will make their preferences known. 

 

Sadly, only a Drummond passenger livery version would induce me to part with £315, as I have no plans to model the LSWR post 1914.  It is just as well, then, I already have one in Drummond livery (not to say I wouldn't buy a second!).  However, those who model late pre and early Grouping will be in with a treat if the A12 is finished in Urie "sage" green. 

 

We must wait and see ...

 

 

 

Edited by Edwardian
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25 minutes ago, Nile said:

I suspect these will sell well even in the wrong livery.

 

That's the trouble. Those with access to the livery information and who care sufficiently are too few in proportion to the total number of customers, so there is no incentive for the manufacturer to bother. One would think that a premium-priced brand would take care to get their product right; fortunately in my experience there are others who do.

Edited by Compound2632
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52 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

I have just received an email from OO Works saying that the Jubilee will now be released in Urie 'sage' green.

 

Of course, it depends what they mean by Sage... but I can forgive a shade of green issue if the lining is right.

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19 hours ago, Edwardian said:

I have just received an email from OO Works saying that the Jubilee will now be released in Urie 'sage' green.

.

 

Thanks for the update, but it gives rise to more questions ;

 

( I note Graham "Muz" reply above ;

 

"... They all started out in Adams pea green with black edging and a single white line. From 1896, livery became Drummond "royal" green with purple brown edging and white-black-white lining and from about 1916, Urie's olive green with black edging and a single white line. In Southern days, this livery was continued but the green got darker from about 1925. The other main changes were that the Adams brass number plates were replaced by transfer numerals from about 1905 and Drummond chimneys began to replace the Adams stovepipes shortly after ..."  )

 

 

1:  What approximate dates is Urie "sage" green livery applicable to ?

 

2:  Is the livery lined, or plain ?

 

3:  Does anyone have an appropriate photo ?

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3 minutes ago, phil gollin said:

.

 

Thanks for the update, but it gives rise to more questions ;

 

( I note Graham "Muz" reply above ;

 

"... They all started out in Adams pea green with black edging and a single white line. From 1896, livery became Drummond "royal" green with purple brown edging and white-black-white lining and from about 1916, Urie's olive green with black edging and a single white line. In Southern days, this livery was continued but the green got darker from about 1925. The other main changes were that the Adams brass number plates were replaced by transfer numerals from about 1905 and Drummond chimneys began to replace the Adams stovepipes shortly after ..."  )

 

 

1:  What approximate dates is Urie "sage" green livery applicable to ?

 

2:  Is the livery lined, or plain ?

 

3:  Does anyone have an appropriate photo ?

 

As far as I understand it, all three questions are answered in Edwardian's photos at the top of this page. Post-war, so about 1919-1923; lined; per pictures from the Harvey volume.

 

Adam

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28 minutes ago, phil gollin said:

.

 

Thanks for the update, but it gives rise to more questions ;

 

( I note Graham "Muz" reply above ;

 

"... They all started out in Adams pea green with black edging and a single white line. From 1896, livery became Drummond "royal" green with purple brown edging and white-black-white lining and from about 1916, Urie's olive green with black edging and a single white line. In Southern days, this livery was continued but the green got darker from about 1925. The other main changes were that the Adams brass number plates were replaced by transfer numerals from about 1905 and Drummond chimneys began to replace the Adams stovepipes shortly after ..."  )

 

 

1:  What approximate dates is Urie "sage" green livery applicable to ?

 

2:  Is the livery lined, or plain ?

 

3:  Does anyone have an appropriate photo ?

 

Hi, right, because I was not familiar with the subject before I started to look into it, my posts were more of an exploration of the issue, rather than a pat answer, so they were quite long(!).

 

To summarise, now that everyone is comfortable that it's Urie's passenger livery we are concerned with, the answer is this:

 

- From 1915, according to Bradley, Urie (who had taken over from Drummond in 1912) changed the shade of green from Drummiond's 'royal' green to his own 'sage'.  The double-line lining style and the purple brown (which I casually call chocolate) borders of the Drummond scheme seem to have been retained.  Ultimately, this livery phase does not concern us.

 

- Next, in 1917 (or 'about 1916' according to Graham's post), Urie simplified the lining to the single white line with narrow black border. What you end up with is a lining scheme similar both to Adam's old Pea green passenger livery and Maunsell's subsequent SR dark olive passenger livery.

 

- There seems to be agreement that the Urie sage green shade continued to be applied to repaints until 1925, then the Maunsell dark olive takes over. One assumes any repaints in the 1923-5 period would at least be lettered for the SR, not LSWR! A photograph would be nice, though. 

 

Appropriate photos

 

413778628_LSWRA12618StrawberryHillearly1920s2.jpg.8fa29d4e23f4e7b2313b23ff67615ade.jpg

 

2081158617_LSWRA12613.jpg.8ae3085568e5d4fbb2a3c6178e654482.jpg

 

20210312_111614.jpg.3eea466c6a48dd49df8dca126ff422fc.jpg

 

1358733235_20210312_111447-Copy.jpg.4a99605512fe0ab529a8c648ba1464a2.jpg

 

Remarkably, the next two have retained splasher/sandbox beading

 

20210312_111600.jpg.46c6592f20d3a44a1eb68e4f6e891e8c.jpg

 

20210312_111513.jpg.e73e46676b6ad95e2a1ce0443c4d7102.jpg

 

2067985803_LSWRA12653.jpg.0f756f1ec42ec6b03340af4c293936c6.jpg

 

Finally, given the date of 1924, conceivably 529 is still in Urie sage green below

 

1979791720_A12Bradscan8-Copy.jpg.f46731bff32d65a90d690eb196ea441e.jpg

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Edwardian said:

- There seems to be agreement that the Urie sage green shade continued to be applied to repaints until 1925, then the Maunsell dark olive takes over. One assumes any repaints in the 1923-5 period would at least be lettered for the SR, not LSWR! A photograph would be nice, though. 

 

While it's a preservation era shot, and so not confirmably authentic (you're not going to get an accurate colour photo from pre 1925 anyway), you can see the difference in colour here:

 

https://iwsteamrailway.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Newport-2-1920x1280.jpg

 

W11 being in the earlier, lighter colour and W8 behind in the later darker shade.

Edited by Nick C
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  • 4 months later...
Guest Jack Benson

Not another comment about livery, merely a note that Douglas Seaton managed to capture a Jubilee at Bournemouth (up side about to run under Holdenhurst Road) on film. 
 

No connection with the publisher but the two ‘Steaming through Wessex’ films are well worth seeking for their coverage of the Southern, including Birdcages at Bournemouth and the sublime D15 in full flight.

 

Not to be outdone, a wartime black 569 is on order if only to be the natural companion to the 0395 recently covered by DLT and Cap’n Kernow

 

StaySafe

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  • 2 months later...
Guest Jack Benson

Hi,

 

According to a response from OOworks, the final plain black SR versions will not be ready until 2022 

 

StaySafe

 

 

 

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