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Locomotives with embellishments and modern liveries


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I've always personally been rather curious about the embellishments given to steam locomotives both historically and in preservation, but as far as I'm aware (and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) there's no thread to discuss these things currently on RMweb. What's mainly got me to create this thread is the attached photo of C&O 2716 during it's 2019 move from the KRM to the Kentucky Steam Heritage Corporation Ravenna's base and the use of the modified CSX logo and the KSHC's logo on the cab. I feel like it's a really nice homage to include, and while these sorts of personal touches aren't authentic to the railway I know a lot of people will now remember (seemingly being a pre-grouping thing when engines were often allocated to either a single or pair of crews who would keep a good eye and have more direct pride in their engine's appearance) I feel it's a shame that either I've been ignorant, or it's rare to see in the UK. Moreover it's actually pretty cool seeing preservation societies leaving their marks on engines in their care, whether it be a modern transfer applied or livery for a tour as a tongue i

So I'd like to ask if anyone has any details say of the KWVR's 75079 when it wore a Cockney Sparrow on it's tender, the picture below of a Star with an adorable heart on it's smokebox, the NSE & other embellishments applied to DMU noses for a period or even the many liveries the West Coast Railways fleet has worn (Galatea in red or Leander & British India Line in black, the latter with TOPS numbering on the cab!) any similar embellishments and the reasons behind them then I'd love to hear of it! It's such a fascinating and very human part of railway history that I'd love to get more antiquated with.

68257950_2940948132797049_6771067443096846336_o.jpg

GWRManor.JPG

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71000 had brass numerals on its cabside for a while in preservation, Nicely done but I always thought it loked wrong.

LU have had poppies on there cab fronts over a number of years for November  memories.

 

Stewart

Edited by stewartingram
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On 17/02/2021 at 00:52, SteamedLyons said:

 

 

GWRManor.JPG

If the GWR couldnt tell the difference between a Star and a Manor, its no wonder model railway companies can’t.

 

I think the whole postcard is fake.. Stars were powerful for their time,  but Manors didnt appear for another 3 decades, by which time the Kings were around a decade before them.

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On 17/02/2021 at 11:49, stewartingram said:

71000 had brass numerals on its cabside for a while in preservation, Nicely done but I always thought it loked wrong.

LU have had poppies on there cab fronts over a number of years for November  memories.

 

Stewart

Its carried them since first overhaul.

The only time I am aware they were removed, was just weeks before its withdrawal from service in 2012.

 

166CA8CD-3E63-4E3F-BF75-CA35A8B5FE93.jpeg.b9b7d02082b2c79f534e5ff51cc829b3.jpeg

Edited by adb968008
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It's not uncommon in Germany for preserved steam & diesel locos to have either a plate on the cabside with the name of the owning group, in the style of the "Deutsche Reichsbahn" plate, or a version of the DB logo, suitably reworked with the organisation's initials.

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As there have been many photo shopped images of items in more modern liveries I wouldn't be surprised to see the odd item painted up.

 

An actual example of this was the new build Manning Wardle "Lyd" that gained a BR number and livery for some time in 2011

 

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Quite a lot of preserved locomotives in the UK carry names or liveries which they never carried in service. It occasionally causes controversy but to my mind, if you've gone to the considerable trouble and effort to preserve the loco and keep it running, you can paint it whatever colour you like, call it whatever you like and embelish it however you like. 

 

More controversial is painting something in a sponsor's livery, the best known being the DH Sea Vixen which was displayed at airshows in Red Bull colours. For months the aviation mags were full of letters decrying this outrage and demanding that it be repainted in FAA colours until the owner beautifully shut them down:

 

"The Sea Vixen costs a six figure sum each year to insure and display, Red Bull have covered those costs for the next three years. If in three years time any of your correspondents would like to send me a cheque for the next year's costs I will paint the aircraft whatever colour they like". 

 

Personally I quite liked 'City of Truro' in BR black. 

Edited by Wheatley
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On 06/03/2021 at 17:36, adb968008 said:

If the GWR couldnt tell the difference between a Star and a Manor, its no wonder model railway companies can’t.

 

I think the whole postcard is fake.. Stars were powerful for their time,  but Manors didnt appear for another 3 decades, by which time the Kings were around a decade before them.

 

The Star appears to be in the simplified WW1 livery with painted safety valve cover and plain lettering on the tender, as in the Hornby train pack.

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2 hours ago, Wheatley said:

More controversial is painting something in a sponsor's livery, the best known being the DH Sea Vixen which was displayed at airshows in Red Bull colours. For months the aviation mags were full of letters decrying this outrage and demanding that it be repainted in FAA colours until the owner beautifully shut them down:

Paint is just colourful rust proofing. We're all entitled to like or dislike any color scheme, and to express those opinions. And the people who actually take responsibility for the artifacts are entitled to use whatever paint they want and to ignore all the noise that everyone else makes about it.

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2 hours ago, Zomboid said:

Paint is just colourful rust proofing. We're all entitled to like or dislike any color scheme, and to express those opinions. And the people who actually take responsibility for the artifacts are entitled to use whatever paint they want and to ignore all the noise that everyone else makes about it.

 

Agree totally, although the hypocrite in me is still thoroughly disappointed in how Flying Scotsman looks :(

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That's the point though, you're allowed to not like it. And the NRM are allowed to ignore you.

 

Personally I think there's far too many pre-BR locos in BR paint schemes (which would include FS) but since I am just some guy in the internet I don't expect anything to change because of that.

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I thought Flying Scotsman looked much better when it was in LNER war time black with just "NE" on the tender.

 

It's interesting to see many pre-BR locos in post Nationalisation liveries - turn the clock back to the 1980s and Big Four liveries were much more commonly seen/

 

Steven B

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I might be wrong (I often am) but in the 1960/70's I'm sure that BR insisted that locos should be painted in pre nationalisation where appropriate.  If you watch the Rocket150 BBC programme there are very few BR liveries.

 

I never visited Vale of Rheidol in the last years of BR ownership and think that the trio of different coloured locos was a good idea.  Many passengers will remember the colour of the loco and it being "smart" rather than the name or number.

 

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3 hours ago, AMJ said:

I might be wrong (I often am) but in the 1960/70's I'm sure that BR insisted that locos should be painted in pre nationalisation where appropriate.  If you watch the Rocket150 BBC programme there are very few BR liveries.

 

I never visited Vale of Rheidol in the last years of BR ownership and think that the trio of different coloured locos was a good idea.  Many passengers will remember the colour of the loco and it being "smart" rather than the name or number.

 

 

Urban myth I'm afraid. Still perpetuated unfortunately.

 

Half the Black Fives were running about in fictional livery as the owners wanted them that way. The others weren't. That includes at least two at Carnforth which was the shed that is always cited when people start discussing the idea. 

 

Alongside the green and red "Fives" was 45407 in BR lined black.

 

https://preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com/45407-lms-5407-br-45407/

 

There was also 60009 which was still in BR Green.

 

https://preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com/60009-union-of-south-africa-lner-4488-lner-590-lner-9-br-60009/

 

The other example is always the K&WVR. Yes you had the USA Tank and Ivatt Tank running around in bright liveries, but the 4F and others were in BR livery.

 

A lot of people seem to forget how unpopular BR was at the time. Many were still harking back to the pre 1948 era. It was only when the next generation who were brought up with BR that BR liveries became popular, as that is what they remembered.

 

The same thing happened with model trains. You couldn't give away BR livery models in the 1970s and '80s, everyone wanted Big Four.

 

 

Jason

Edited by Steamport Southport
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1 hour ago, Steamport Southport said:

The same thing happened with model trains. You couldn't give away BR livery models in the 1970s and '80s, everyone wanted Big Four.

Agreed. I worked in a model shop in 1985/6. We could sell as many Cheshires, MR 1000s and whatever the LNER Footballer was as we could get. The only loco in BR livery which sold was Mallard, and that's only because it wasn't available in blue at the time. Even then we sold more Seagulls for people to stick Crownline plates on. 

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5 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

A lot of people seem to forget how unpopular BR was at the time. Many were still harking back to the pre 1948 era. It was only when the next generation who were brought up with BR that BR liveries became popular, as that is what they remembered.

 

The same thing happened with model trains. You couldn't give away BR livery models in the 1970s and '80s, everyone wanted Big Four.

 

IMO there's both a general aesthetic preference and a nostalgic one. I was born after steam ended on BR so I can't be said to have a nostalgic preference but the general BR steam colours I like (for locos; for coaches I really rather like maroon and aren't at all keen on blood and custard). A good example of nostalgia on the other hand is that I smile when I see a loco in BR blue.  It's not actually a livery that I like at all from an aesthetic perspective (especially blue and grey - perhaps two tone coach liveries just don't do it for me), but I do like the sense of nostalgia from my childhood with it (BR ones I liked from when I was alive were the InterCity swallow and the two-tone Railfreight Grey).

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I do like to see might have been liveries like the Railfreight red stripe 14901, large logo blue 40 and anything in Loadhaul black and orange.

 

Wasn't quite as keen on the Porterbrook purple Deltic but a lot of that was the Wipac lights.

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On 06/04/2021 at 11:12, Steamport Southport said:

 

 

A lot of people seem to forget how unpopular BR was at the time. Many were still harking back to the pre 1948 era. It was only when the next generation who were brought up with BR that BR liveries became popular, as that is what they remembered.

 

The same thing happened with model trains. You couldn't give away BR livery models in the 1970s and '80s, everyone wanted Big Four.

 

 

This has always been my theory, if you look at the 1970's and 80's and the predomiant force in the movement were the likes of John Bellwood who clesrly remembered the Big 4 days, so these guys would have the say on colours, move forward 10-20 years and it was the guys who grew up in the 1950's who came forward so their preference for what they remember took hold. I still believe that in the next 15 years or so it will be the kids of the 70's 80's who remember the big 4 colours that will take hold again and we may see things reverting back to those days

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21 hours ago, Ed-farms said:

I still believe that in the next 15 years or so it will be the kids of the 70's 80's who remember the big 4 colours that will take hold again and we may see things reverting back to those days

In my case, I like to see the big 4 (and pre group, but that's really rare overall) as a reaction against just about everything being painted for BR. Even engines which were never owned, operated or painted by BR masquerade as BR machines, and it's all a bit dull.

 

Its not the colorfulness, because my favourite colour scheme is the SR unlined black with sunshine lettering, which isn't exactly gaudy. Its just the homogeneity of everything that I find a bit boring.

 

But as I said before, I'm just a guy with an opinion and an internet connection. I don't expect to have an influence.

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When it comes to such choices whilst familiarity comes in to play there's also familiarity by proxy, i.e. books, photos, film, and there's far more of that for BR than for earlier (and more for the Big 4 than earlier, and so on). That's bound to have its influence.

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BEN_BUCKI_KWVR_Damems_Big-Jim-BR-BLACK_7.3.13_02.JPG.b03c804a9019ac3eb4ad8f6d99c933dd.JPG

 

Further to the post near the top, I forgot I also had a couple of shots of 'Big Jim' in its short-lived, fictional BR livery.  Sobering to think these were taken just after it had been delivered into traffic, and it's already rocketing towards withdrawal in a couple of years!

 

BEN_BUCKI_KWVR_Damems_Big-Jim-BR-BLACK_7.3.13_03.JPG.add1d7899a76ba9454355dd3880b54dd.JPG

 

Personally I thought this loco looked pretty magnificent in the logical 'what-if' livery.

 

BEN_BUCKI_KWVRGALA_41001HST_5820_Damems_05_05.19_04.JPG.52d9eddac0bda8a204f8a5949bbc7ae4.JPG

 

Not quite a full re-livery, but some amusing silliness by the shed staff during a gala, with the arrows of indecision added!  Does make me think the last few months in traffic they could get away with painting the cab yellow, and a red-stripe down the buffer beam, and have it in Railfreight colours ;)

 

BEN_BUCKI_KWVR_Haworth_78022_Vintage-Train_06_09.20_03.JPG.e6a634ddf48e81369a9df4148bdac78f.JPG

 

Whilst looking through the KWVR pics on my computer, would 78022 count?  A prototypical livery, but 22 didn't carry it in service apparently, so not prototypical for this particular locomotive.  Looks good, and again, a break from the BR Black colour schemes that predominated.  I've heard that some enthusiasts don't like the fact the Worth Valley is going back to the 'rainbow railway' days, but I think it adds a bit of variety and brightens things up considerably.

 

B_BUCKI_KWVR_41241_Ingrow_25_06_18.JPG.880f3afcb0d6d23a3a646502b0e3fd3d.JPG

 

Personally I think the 'house red' livery looks superb on the Ivatt :)

 

I've some shots somewhere of the 'Cock Sparrow' on the Standard 5, I'll try and have a look later...

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