HST power car dragging a light loco?

[Wickham Green too]

16 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

........ a total length of wiring longer than that in an as built D10XX/Class 52.

That was a Diesel Hydraulic ...... did it have wiring ??!? 

[fiftyfour fiftyfour]

30 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Probably cheaper to start from scratch!   The amount of wiring in sleeping cars is phenomenal due in part to all the fire monitoring/alarm system requirements and a contemporary sleeping car (without the luxury of a databus etc) is likely to have about the same total distance of wiring in it as some early 1960s BR Type 4 diesel locos.  The abortive ENS sleepers - which of course had a little bit more safety system stuff plus some complex 'hotel' wiring - contained a total length of wiring longer than that in an as built D10XX/Class 52.

You don't rewire the coach, you take the MA set off and feed the auxiliaries off the 415V three phase, which is effectively what the MA set does to the 850V DC supply. It's been done on many loco hauled Mk3 coaches now and none of them have needed anything like the work you describe. Converting the other way (HST to loco hauled) is a tad harder, it was done on some TRUK vehicles to make them into RFMs.

 

 

[frobisher]

On 19/02/2021 at 13:05, Zomboid said:

Or maybe (at the time at least) convert the carriages to take HST ETH. No shortage of motive power in that case, but if they were still dropping a carriage(s) at Plymouth that would have been a whole lot harder.

 

It would probably be way cheaper to convert a small pool of PCs to be able to produce conventional ETH.

 

 

[Zomboid]

14 minutes ago, frobisher said:

 

It would probably be way cheaper to convert a small pool of PCs to be able to produce conventional ETH.

 

 

At the time that it might have made sense, the PCs would have been more useful if they were interoperable with the day stock, so that would mean changing the coaches to work with HST ETH.

 

But actually a generator van to enable any loco to haul the trains (including a HST PC) would seem more sensible on the face of it.

[Nearholmer]

15 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

contained a total length of wiring longer than that in an as built D10XX/Class 52.

There was wiring in a Western?

 

I thought even the lights were somehow hydraulically or mechanically illuminated.

[DY444]

12 hours ago, frobisher said:

 

It would probably be way cheaper to convert a small pool of PCs to be able to produce conventional ETH.

 

 

 

12 hours ago, Zomboid said:

At the time that it might have made sense, the PCs would have been more useful if they were interoperable with the day stock, so that would mean changing the coaches to work with HST ETH.

 

But actually a generator van to enable any loco to haul the trains (including a HST PC) would seem more sensible on the face of it.

 

I have a vague recollection that Brush did some design work on a module for the power cars which would have allowed them to support both ets systems.  Beyond the Cornish sleeper the potential uses for such a modification don't readily spring to mind.  Nothing came of it at the time and I suspect the moment has passed now. 

[Dagworth]

The buffer fitted power cars have loco type ETH connections on the cab end. What are they connected to?

 

Andi

[fiftyfour fiftyfour]

2 hours ago, Dagworth said:

The buffer fitted power cars have loco type ETH connections on the cab end. What are they connected to?

 

Andi

No they don't, only 43014/123 had it. It's just a through cable to allow a  conventional ETH loco on the front to therm stock behind the power car.

[fiftyfour fiftyfour]

15 hours ago, Zomboid said:

At the time that it might have made sense, the PCs would have been more useful if they were interoperable with the day stock, so that would mean changing the coaches to work with HST ETH.

 

But actually a generator van to enable any loco to haul the trains (including a HST PC) would seem more sensible on the face of it.

You'd only go down the genny van route if you were planning to sub contract the haulage to a freight operator, which was floated a while ago and firmly blocked by the union locally.

 

[caradoc]

1 hour ago, fiftyfour fiftyfour said:

You'd only go down the genny van route if you were planning to sub contract the haulage to a freight operator, which was floated a while ago and firmly blocked by the union locally.

 

Regardless of Union opposition it would surely be simpler to hire in locos (as Caledonian Sleepers do), 67s from DBS or 68s from DRS (especially the latter as they already work out of London !) The most important thing is to keep the sleepers running, reliably and efficiently, and secure their future. 

 

[fiftyfour fiftyfour]

23 minutes ago, caradoc said:

 

Regardless of Union opposition it would surely be simpler to hire in locos (as Caledonian Sleepers do), 67s from DBS or 68s from DRS (especially the latter as they already work out of London !) The most important thing is to keep the sleepers running, reliably and efficiently, and secure their future. 

 

Caledonian Sleepers is more complex, as they are more like a "hook and haul" freight contract whereby GBRf provide all the locos, all the drivers and the control function but without the baggage of the work "belonging" to any particular TOC. 

 

I'd argue that the importance of the sleepers had been in steep decline even prior to black death as earlier, later and faster "daytime" trains diminished the need for them; if you are a business person in Cornwall you can have a night at home and get the up Golden Hind and still be in London for 10:00 and probably do quite a bit of work on the way- and that was reflected by falling demand for the sleepers over the years.

[Ken.W]

3 hours ago, fiftyfour fiftyfour said:

I'd argue that the importance of the sleepers had been in steep decline even prior to black death as earlier, later and faster "daytime" trains diminished the need for them;

 

It's been going on a lot longer than that, the East Coast sleepers succumbed to that back in the '80s

[Ken.W]

6 hours ago, fiftyfour fiftyfour said:

No they don't, only 43014/123 had it. It's just a through cable to allow a  conventional ETH loco on the front to therm stock behind the power car.

 

Could that be a modification post them being allocated to NR for the NMT, as they could be included in a train with conventional stock there? Transit moves perhaps. I don't see any need for that modification when in service and '123 doesn't appear to have them in the pics I posted on here earlier.

 

Which brings me back to just what was going on there...

Yes, it's a pair of buffer fitted 43s back to back being used to loco haul a Mk4 set, Newcastle - York - Edinburgh - Heaton, and with the PCs being run-round the train at both York and Edinburgh.

The Mk4 set was without the 91, with just the TOE vehicle at the other end to the DVT, and was hauled dead.

So, just what's going on here? Well, it was a high speed test run York to Edinburgh with the Mk4s, specially authorised to exceed linespeed in certain places, and transit moves from / to Heaton. AIUI it was the first Mk4 set to Edinburgh.

The significant part regarding the use of the 43s was the date, early '91, possibly March - before the final section of the EC electrification, through the Newcastle area, was completed.

 

Running round the train with HST power cars was a novel experience!

Edited February 21, 2021 by Ken.W

[caradoc]

6 hours ago, fiftyfour fiftyfour said:

Caledonian Sleepers is more complex, as they are more like a "hook and haul" freight contract whereby GBRf provide all the locos, all the drivers and the control function but without the baggage of the work "belonging" to any particular TOC. 

 

True of course, since the sleepers were removed from Scotrail and made a separate entity. Which made my small role in managing them (as a NR Controller) even more 'interesting' than it had been before !

 

[Kris]

19 hours ago, fiftyfour fiftyfour said:

 if you are a business person in Cornwall you can have a night at home and get the up Golden Hind and still be in London for 10:00 and probably do quite a bit of work on the way- and that was reflected by falling demand for the sleepers over the years.

 

Having caught this service a few times, I can say that I would have preferred to have caught the sleeper. Crawling out of bed just after 4am, creeping around trying not to wake the family up is not a great start to the day. I did establish that using this service the earliest I could get to the location of my meetings (near the Excel centre) was 11am. Even meetings more in the centre could not be before 10:30. Those that did required me to either get the sleeper or travel up the evening before and get a hotel. 

[Zomboid]

On 21/02/2021 at 11:03, fiftyfour fiftyfour said:

You'd only go down the genny van route if you were planning to sub contract the haulage to a freight operator, which was floated a while ago and firmly blocked by the union locally.

 

The thing a generator van would offer is any loco at all could haul it. No technical reason they couldn't then have used a HST power car for the job (just one ought to be enough for traction requirements given the slowness of the train, but another one DIT on the back to aid with getting in and out out of Paddington might have helped).

 

No miniscule fleet of non-standard locos would then be needed, and no union objections because the relevant staff could all drive HSTs.

 

Doesn't help with the miniscule fleet of non-standard carriages, but the only way round that would be to have combined the operation with the Caledonian sleeper. Which might not have been a bad idea actually. Perhaps you could call the whole thing "Intercity Sleepers" or something...

[fiftyfour fiftyfour]

20 hours ago, Zomboid said:

The thing a generator van would offer is any loco at all could haul it. No technical reason they couldn't then have used a HST power car for the job (just one ought to be enough for traction requirements given the slowness of the train, but another one DIT on the back to aid with getting in and out out of Paddington might have helped).

 

No miniscule fleet of non-standard locos would then be needed, and no union objections because the relevant staff could all drive HSTs.

 

Doesn't help with the miniscule fleet of non-standard carriages, but the only way round that would be to have combined the operation with the Caledonian sleeper. Which might not have been a bad idea actually. Perhaps you could call the whole thing "Intercity Sleepers" or something...

Or just accept that it's an outrageous waste of public money subsidising a lightly used sleeper service and can the whole lot!! Prior to the plague imagine how much better the money spent building 75 brand new Caledonian Sleeper carriages could have been used on daytime services- for example a build of 58 carriages could have extended all Cross Country Voyagers by one coach...

[wasabi]

31 minutes ago, fiftyfour fiftyfour said:

Or just accept that it's an outrageous waste of public money subsidising a lightly used sleeper service and can the whole lot!! Prior to the plague imagine how much better the money spent building 75 brand new Caledonian Sleeper carriages could have been used on daytime services- for example a build of 58 carriages could have extended all Cross Country Voyagers by one coach...

This may be anecdotal but I'm sure I read somewhere that sleepers were popular with Scottish MPs returning from London to their constituencies. 

 

[IPW]

[keefer]

Part of the Sleeper problem seems to be the desire/ perceived need to turn them into Travelodge rooms on wheels, rather than just a berth with access to a toilet.

Providing all the facilities available in a hotel room means extra space, weight, expense, power requirements etc etc.

[jonny777]

On 18/02/2021 at 11:25, 125_driver said:

During the 1990s I have seen plenty of footage of class 47s dragging a HST power car plus barrier vehicle between depots for maintenance purposes, but I dont recall seeing a Power car dragging a 47. 

 

 

It wasn't just 47s which dragged power cars and barrier vehicles in the 1990s. 

 

Here is 37051 passing Dawlish Warren in 1991. 

 

 

 

 

 

[dave750t]

4 hours ago, fiftyfour fiftyfour said:

Or just accept that it's an outrageous waste of public money

Any money saved would be unlikely to be spent more wisely elsewhere. It keeps quite a few people in employment, it probably prevents some more polluting flights occurring, it's very useful to a number of people and gives a lot of pleasure to more people. I think this country is rich enough to afford it. Given half an hour, I'm sure most people could think of bigger and more outrageous wastes of public money