Help with Point Motors! At wits end

[JohnR]

I have spent the last two weeks trying to fit point motors to my latest layout, Loch Doune. I wanted to use electrofrogs, for better appearance as well as performance for slow running - as well as the fact that the 3-way point I had waiting to be used was a code 75 electrofrog. 

 

I'm using the ScaleModelScenery "layout in a box" baseboard - these are 4mm MDF, and went together like a dream. 

 

I think my first mistake was to lay the track first, I did however, cut a small slot in the board for the pin of the point motors to go through.

 

I decided to use SEEP PM1s, as they had a switch built in for the frogs, although I am only using that facility on the 3-way point - I'm using the point blades to change the polarity on the other two points. I think this might have been another mistake, although I know they are widely used without problems by many modellers, they seem to have caused me no end of grief. 

 

I had also decided to use Hornby R044 switches for the point motors - partly for nostalgic reasons. As a kid I had always wanted to use these on my train set and motorise the points, but never got around to it. I also prefer the "lever style action" as opposed to push buttons, or stud and probe. This however, turned out, if not to be a mistake, at least it was a misguided purchase.

 

After wiring up the points, I decided to test them out before fitting - to make sure I had all the wiring done correctly. I found that the PM1's seemed to struggle - they were obviously getting power, but not always throwing, or only throwing in one direction. I was using the 16v AC output from my Gaugemaster Combi to power them, which I thought would be adequate for a small layout.

 

After reading through posts here on Rmweb and elsewhere, I thought a CDU was the answer to my problems. However, stocks seemed to low in many of my usual online stores, so I ended up with the Peco CDU. Of course, the R044 levers cant be used with a CDU, so I ended up replacing these with Peco PL26 switches, which at least gave a similar aesthetic to the Hornby switches. As I was not confident in my soldering ability, I decided to mount these in the Peco PL-50 mount. 

 

[As an aside, I dont like the Peco CDU - its awfully hard to fit the wiring into to, as the holes are very small and the push tabs are hard to shift - I would not recommend it on that basis alone]

 

One point was using a PL-11 surface motor, as it lies across the board joint, and a sub-surface motor wasnt an option. However, this too has caused issues, as it seems to only work intermittently.

 

I thought the CDU had solved the problem with the point motors not throwing correctly, although there still seemed to be a reluctance to work in quick succession. As there had been an improvement, I decided to press on, thinking that waiting to throw my points for a few seconds was no hardship.

 

However, when I offered up the PM1s to the points, there still seemed to be an inability of the points to throw the point, and again only working in one direction (which changed from time to time, so I knew it wasnt a fault with the wiring [or so I thought]. 

 

I then concluded that the problem was that the alignment wasnt as accurate as it could be.  So I purchased some 3D printed SEEP point motor mounts - the idea of these being to aid in alignment. These are meant to be used before track laying, as they require a 10mm hole to fit in, but I was able to hack away enough of the baseboard to allow them to fit. I also got alignment by shining a light from behind to see the hole in the tie bar, and checking that it was moving in the same plane as the slot in the mount.

 

With the board only being 4mm thick, I was unable to find any screws to secure the mount to the board. At this stage, I was tearing my hair out as what ought to be a simple and straightforward procedure, was consuming all my mental energy, so I used super glue to fix them. Once fixed, I checked that the slot was aligned, and all seemed well.

 

I then decided to fit the motors, but I still have the same issue. 

 

So to summarise, I have point motors which energise, but either dont throw a point, or if they do, they do it in one direction, and then not another. And my surface mounted PL-11 is now also suffering the same thing. You can hear them buzz but nothing happens.

 

 

Please, please, PLEASE can someone help me with advice? I am at the point now of chucking the lot out of the window and taking up another hobby like stamp collecting or knitting.   

 

Now, I'm aware that I might have done things in the wrong order, but I just want to get the layout working, and it just feels like everything I do to fix it doesnt work.

 

Sorry for the long, and perhaps rambling post. 

Edited February 19, 2021 by JohnR

[kevinlms]

Do you have a multimeter?

 

The first thing to do is to check the output voltage of the CDU. You say that it's being fed from a 16 Volt AC supply, so the output should be around 21-22 Volts DC.

[JohnR]

Just now, kevinlms said:

Do you have a multimeter?

 

The first thing to do is to check the output voltage of the CDU. You say that it's being fed from a 16 Volt AC supply, so the output should be around 21-22 Volts DC.

 

I dont - I'll have to get one - will any multimeter do the trick?

[Kris]

6 minutes ago, JohnR said:

 

I dont - I'll have to get one - will any multimeter do the trick?

The multimeter will help to identify the problem. This would appear to be the cheapest on Amazon https://www.amazon.co.uk/Swiftswan-Multimeter-Continuity-Voltmeter-Ohmmeter/dp/B07MF1LVV1/ref=sr_1_26?crid=1PWHE4G7DO4OI&dchild=1&keywords=multimeter&qid=1613733097&sprefix=multi%2Caps%2C160&sr=8-26 

 

What a multimeter will not do is cure any problems, so don't expect a miracle cure just by purchasing one. 

 

It does sound like your point motors are not receiving the voltage that they need, even with the CDU. It does make you wonder if the 16v AC feed is working correctly. 

[JohnR]

4 minutes ago, Kris said:

What a multimeter will not do is cure any problems, so don't expect a miracle cure just by purchasing one. 

 

It does sound like your point motors are not receiving the voltage that they need, even with the CDU. It does make you wonder if the 16v AC feed is working correctly. 

 

Thanks, I appreciate that. 

[kevinlms]

20 minutes ago, JohnR said:

 

I dont - I'll have to get one - will any multimeter do the trick?

Almost any multimeter will do, good if it can measure up to 10 Amps DC.. Some nice to have features are a continuity tester, battery tester and LED tester, but they aren't essential.

[Gordon A]

Have you tried the point motors before fitting to the base board?

 

[MR Chuffer]

My newbie experience, code 75 with double slips and 3-ways, was that I purchased SEEP PM1s' for frog switching on the slips and 3-ways, and PM2s relying on point blade contact for the rest, because of cost. Due to inexperience, basically not getting the PM1's exactly lined up under the board so they didn't switch over completely and burnt out, I have blown the internal switching on most of my PM1s but the motor still switches the blades.

 

So I replaced the slips and 3-way motors with Peco PL-10Es and the associated mechanical accessory switch unit  PL-13E and developed an under board fixing setup which is much easier to adjust laterally to ensure optimum frog switching performance. So the PM1s are relegated to ordinary blade switching and which I have not had a problem with yet.

 

I don't think your switches make much difference provided they are single pole, double throw, I use cheapo ones off Amazon.

 

And as a previous poster has said, have some wires hanging off your transformer to test each switch with before locating it in place.

[MartynJPearson]

First off, take a step back and a deep breath. Not following this simple piece of advice has meant I've got into a bigger mess than I was to start with!

 

If a 16v supply didn't work and adding a CDU didn't help, that might suggest that the fault is elsewhere.

 

I would remove the point motor from the board and make sure that it works alone. Your 16v AC supply should be fine, it's not necessary to use the CDU at this stage. Connect the common to on side of the 16v supply and then with a wire connected to the other side of the supply, briefly touch the appropriate contacts to throw the motor back and forth. Each time you should have a positive movement straight away. Don't hold the wire on there for too long as that will burn out the coil. If you don't get a positive movement (the sort that makes the point motor jump if you aren't holding it) then the point motor itself may well be suspect.

 

If all good at this stage, the next thing I would check is that the points (without the motor fitted) move freely. Particularly if the track has been ballasted it is easy to get the points gummed up. I've also had the spring dislodge and get wedged which has caused issues.

 

If we're all good at this stage, then the next thing to do is to make sure the alignment is right. I've no experience of the alignment mounts but my approach is to hold the seep in place and then operate the point by sliding the protruding end of the pin backwards and forwards to make sure that the points do work correctly. As well as doing this, you need to make sure that the centre of the throw of the points corresponds to the centre of travel of the point motor - this is even more important when you are using them for switching. This is where you might consider genetic modification and somehow incorporating octopus genes as several pairs of hands would really help!

 

If you're happy with the position, stick it in place - I've tended to use a glue gun as it sticks pretty instantly and there is enough bulk to hold the motor secure, before following up with screws. I found that it is too easy to dislodge the motor if you try to screw in without the glue, although it is possible if you have more than rudimentary woodworking skills and the aforementioned octopus abilities.

 

If you're still stuck some pictures might help shed some light on it. Good luck!

[Ray Von]

Have you tried removing the CDU and wiring the point motors directly to the switches?  Not a permanent solution, but it might help in the process of elimination? 

Also, I've found (through bitter experience) that if using point motors mounted below the baseboard, it's better to make the hole that the motor pin protrudes through LARGE and not just big enough for the pin (then later you can neaten up and make the hole the right size with some styrene sheet or card.)

Best of luck to you anyway, I hope you get the results you're after.

[Matt C]

Not sure if this topic will help at all but it's worth checking some of the points mentioned ( baseboard thickness etc)

 

 

 

[spikey]

55 minutes ago, MR Chuffer said:

I don't think your switches make much difference provided they are single pole, double throw, I use cheapo ones off Amazon.

 

I don't underdstand.  Are you saying that you're using ordinary SPDT switches to control solenoid point motors?

[spikey]

2 hours ago, JohnR said:

 ... So to summarise, I have point motors which energise, but either dont throw a point, or if they do, they do it in one direction, and then not another. And my surface mounted PL-11 is now also suffering the same thing. You can hear them buzz but nothing happens ...

 

Just wondering ... what size/thickness is the wiring you've used?

[ejstubbs]

2 hours ago, JohnR said:

I thought the CDU had solved the problem with the point motors not throwing correctly, although there still seemed to be a reluctance to work in quick succession.

 

This is normal: there will easily be a slight delay after each point movement driven from a CDU while the capacitors inside the CDU charge up again.

[JohnR]

8 minutes ago, spikey said:

 

Just wondering ... what size/thickness is the wiring you've used?

 

I'm now using Gaugemasters triple point motor wire (the Peco surface motor is using the wire it came with), which does seem to be a thicker gauge than the thin wire which came with the Hornby R044 levers, that I had initially. 

[JohnR]

6 minutes ago, ejstubbs said:

 

This is normal: there will easily be a slight delay after each point movement driven from a CDU while the capacitors inside the CDU charge up again.

 

Depends on what you mean by "slight" delay. I can get used to doing a slight delay. But more than a couple of seconds? I thought CDUs were supposed to help move multiple solenoids at once. I only have 4 in total, and I'm only try to move one at a time.

 

[ejstubbs]

8 minutes ago, spikey said:

Are you saying that you're using ordinary SPDT switches to control solenoid point motors?

 

So long as they are momentary switches that return to the "off" centre position when released - usually described as "(on)-off-(on)" - they should be fine.  They won't indicate the lie of the points, though.  You can instead use SPDT on-on switches - which will indicate the lie of the points - with a SPST off-(on) momentary toggle switch, or a non-locking press-to-close pushbutton switch, to "fire" the points.

[ejstubbs]

4 minutes ago, JohnR said:

I can get used to doing a slight delay. But more than a couple of seconds?

 

It will depend primarily on the current that the power supply 'feeding' the CDU can provide.  If it's taking a long time to recharge that could suggest an issue with the 16V AC output of your Gaugemaster controller - which I believe you have already said was unable to fire point motors on its own.

 

Think of the CDU as a big 'bucket' of electricity that can be dumped all in one go through the point motors.  After doing that, though, the 'bucket' needs to be refilled before you can use it again, and the time that takes will depend on how fast electricity can flow in to the 'bucket' from the 'tap' (the power supply).

[bazjones1711]

This may sound a bit daft , but if the point motors are only throwing one way and reluctant to go the other way , have they been wired up correctly ?, a friend of mine once wired up all his point motors incorrectly  and could not understand why they only went one way , he even resorted to spraying them with WD 40 to try and free them up !

[JohnR]

1 minute ago, bazjones1711 said:

This may sound a bit daft , but if the point motors are only throwing one way and reluctant to go the other way , have they been wired up correctly ?, a friend of mine once wired up all his point motors incorrectly  and could not understand why they only went one way , he even resorted to spraying them with WD 40 to try and free them up !

 

No such thing as a daft question! Perhaps I didnt explain myself clearly, I admit it was a bit of a ramble, due to the frustration.

 

Its not that the points throw only in one direction, rather that they seem to throw once, then refuse to throw back - even after a wait of a few seconds. There is obviously power to them, as you can hear the thud of the solenoids, and the rod (I havnt cut them down yet) visibly vibrates. 

[LNER4479]

Hi

 

Reading all that you say above, I have to say that I would put money on it being mechanical / alignment problems, not electrical. Martyn Pearson's post above is excellent advice and I would follow it to the letter (although, personally, I never glue motors in place - just my preference)

 

I use Peco point motors almost exclusively and I have found, over many years, that the cause of motors not firing correctly is almost always misalignment - not the wiring. It is so easy to inadvertently fit a motor from underneath that is not aligned correctly and the symptoms you describe are exactly what happens - it goes one way but not another (just buzzes). Misalignment can be because it is not centralized (as Martyn describes) or it can also be twisted, ie that the action of the point motor back and forth is not parallel with the back and forth of the point tiebar. When mounting a motor from the underneath it is not very easy - sometimes impossible - to see the underneath and the top at the same time and that can easily lead to misalignment which causes a strain on the motor, usually at one end of the throw.

 

Hope that helps (a bit?). Keep trying - railway modelling is so much more rewarding than collecting stamps! (with apologies to any philatelists out there) 

[spikey]

1 hour ago, ejstubbs said:

 

So long as they are momentary switches that return to the "off" centre position when released - usually described as "(on)-off-(on)" - they should be fine. 

 

Indeed, but any newbie reading MrChuffer's post could be forgiven for thinking that any old SPDT switch will be fine.  Hence my post

 

But whatever, it now seems to me that the OP's problem is mechanical rather than electrical i.e. misalignment.  I wish him the best of luck in sorting matters out.

Edited February 19, 2021 by spikey
afterthought

[ejstubbs]

Except that the OP states that a PL11 also only works intermittently which would seem to be less likely to be a mechanical issue.  In my experience it's pretty difficult to get those wrong, assuming it's attached to the turnout in the way that Peco intend i.e. using the locating arms as shown in the instruction leaflet.

 

Worst case scenario the OP could be looking at both mechanical and electrical problems, which might turn out to be tricky to untangle.  If it were me I think I'd focus on getting just one point motor working reliably, and then move on to fault-finding and fixing the next one, and so on.  It can turn out to be a frustrating mistake to assume that what gets one working well will do the trick for all the rest.

[MR Chuffer]

2 hours ago, spikey said:

Are you saying that you're using ordinary SPDT switches to control solenoid point motors?

Yes, off Amazon and other electrical suppliers, I ordered 10 Mini (On) Off(On) Momentary Toggle Switch Miniature SPDT  - £4.65. I'm not using a CDU though, and not planning to, but not sure that it makes a difference.

 

23 minutes ago, spikey said:

any old SPDT switch

And yes, these were any old SPDT switches....

Edited February 19, 2021 by MR Chuffer
grammr

[ISW]

4 hours ago, JohnR said:

Please, please, PLEASE can someone help me with advice?

John,

 

A couple of simple suggestions:

1. Is the hole in the baseboard large enough to allow the switch to the thrown to both extents of movement? Is there sufficient clearance to ensure the drive 'pin' is not contacting the sides of the hole?
2. With the PM1 at the 'middle' of its movement, is the turnout also at the middle of its movement? If the PM1 is 'offset' to one side it'll be able to move the turnout one way too much, but then only move it the other way not enough. This fits with your symptoms.

Ian