Hornby HM 6000

[RAF96]

For your information...

Hornby has placed a dedicated section on their forum for HM|DC.

https://uk.Hornby.com/community/forum/hm-dc

[Legend]

On 05/05/2021 at 03:22, The Johnster said:

 

He's entitled to his opinion, as I am to my opinion of his opinion...  DCC is clearly the best way to control a large and complex layout and can offer much better sound effects, which, with speakers aboard the locos, will come from the right direction, not to mention control of on board lights, exhaust fumes, and probably operating windscreen wipers and washers eventually.  If, that is, you can afford it!  There is probably a correlation between the disposable income of those who can afford large complex layouts in homes that are big enough to have space for them and those who can pay for DCC, and the age of the tradiitionally controlled large complex layout is probably well over by now.  If you were building Borchester or Buckingham these days you would probably not even give a thought to DC

 

But DC still has it's place, and there are those of us who would not be able to be active in the hobby at all without it.  The RTR manufacturers recognise this, and there are no locos that are not available without DCC chips, yet, though all have the board to mount them.  DC is still needed for folks who are on low fixed incomes, such as pocket money or Old Age Pension, and for them as own large fleets of pre-DCC locos that are resistant to having chips fitted.  It is this market that the HM6k is aimed at, as well as an exploitation of Generation X, who think in terms of phone screens and apps.

 

HM6k is by no means rubbish.  It is capable of equalling the slow running and smooth stop/start performance of my 'traditional' Gaugemaster, which is a very good controller indeed, and allows untethered control at a very reasonable price.  DCC can only do one of those things.  The quality of control on a model railway is not entirely dependent on the type of controller, though clearly a poor controller of any type will ruin it; it is to a very large extent down to the operator, and his understanding of the momentum and inertia of real trains, of interpreting scale speeds, and of starting and stopping smoothly.  Modern RTR is capable of performing very will indeed in these respects,  but a visit to any exhibition (remember those?) will show that a very large number of operators drive too fast and indulge in brick wall stops and stabbed rat starts, and that there are an almost equal number of operators who conduct all movements at the speed of continental drift, perhaps to show how smoothly their locos run, and these are divided equally between DCC and DC layouts.

 

It is my opinion that DCC will be replaced in the next decade or so by another new system that will eliminate some of the core problems of running a model railway reliably without it turning into a logistical problem of maintenance and cleaning, which is a major part of a large layout with a lot of stock.  If you want to operate trains, or build models, this becomes a chore that sucks the time you have available to do those things.  Probably the biggest such core problem is establishing a reliable passage of current from the track to the loco wheels and then from the wheels to the pickup strips, which requires constant cleaning and adjusting to ensure performance, the reason for the Finger Of God.  For this reason it is my view that a system of NFC control to locos that have onboard power supplies, thus dispensing with the need for metal track and wheels, and the need for pickups altogether.  It is debatable whether the DCC chips we now use will be compatible with such a system.  Presumably our fanboi chum would consider this the 3rd coming...

 

In the meantime I would expect the majority of DC layouts to adopt app based smartphone control over the next few years; I am sure there will by other manufacturers and possibly even third party apps with different features for the HM6k.  An advantage is that one does not have to replace one's existing controllers; they can remain in situ as backup for when the phone is being recharged.

 

I'm following how you are getting on with this with interest Johnster .  I was initially interested on announcement , but then thought  that id prefer a traditional knob control . Interesting to hear that you've quickly got used to the sliders . I have a roundy roundy layout up the loft with a double track mainline controller by a Gaugemaster DS and a third loop controlled by an old Hornby R910 (dates from 1975) with a further station, marshalling yard,mpd controlled by an H&M clipper (also 1975 - the shop had run out of Hornby!) . As both these controllers are now superannuated I did think of the HM6000 as a possible replacement . I do run everything from old Triang , Wrenn, Hornby , Heljan, Bachmann  etc   . Have you any experience running these older models on it?

 

May yet invest in one as a novelty . The alternative I was thinking of was a Morley Controller .

 

One other question , Does it need a certain version of IOS to run it . My Ipad is pretty new and I think running IOS 14 point something but my i Phone is relatively old , might be an iPhone 6 and I think the IOS upgrades stopped at 12 point something.  You see I'm already falling into the trap I said I wouldnt and talking electronics instead of trains . But from what you saying . Seems a decent bit of kit .

[The Johnster]

Just checked on the app store and the HM6k app will run on IOS 10, so your iPhone 6 should be fine, although the smaller screen may affect the ergonomics of how you get on with it (I have an 11 running IOS 14.5).  iPad operation will of course be easier in the sense of the bigger screen, but I am developing a technique of operating one handed, using the thumb of my right hand which holds the phone; not even Gareth Edwards, who had hands like shovels (on the ends of arms like trees), would have been able to do this trick with an iPad!  This sort of thing is very individual, though, and is affected by the size of your hand and length of your digits, as well as your dexterity. 

 

Because it is an untethered controller using a phone screen interface, and it can provide sound fx, operate accessories, and include a layout planner (if you don't mind your layout planning to be restricted to Hornby track pieces), there seems to be a tendency to compare it to DCC.  It is, IMHO, not intended as an alternative to DCC but simply as a new (see comments about Blue) way of presenting a control interface to a layout operator.  It cannot do anything that a normal DC system cannot do, and the whistles and bells (literally in the case of the sound fx), noises, and layout planner are in many ways mere distractions.  I'd be fine with it if they weren't there, or available as extra bolt-ons.

 

I am finding that I still use my old Gaugemaster for 'just a quick move while the adverts are on' running, one of my several modes of operating the layout according to mood and situation.  This seems to be the way things are going at Cwmdimbath, and I am happy to allow my operating practices to develop and evolve organically rather than adhering to a set plan; I feel that I will be happier and more relaxed with the result that way.  And I like the old GM, so it is good to find a continued role for it in my day to day operation. 

 

I am not yet at the stage in which the app controller becomes something I am unaware of while driving trains; it will be a few more weeks I think before it 'apparently disappears' from a sort of feedback loop between the loco, my eyes, and the slider finger driving it, which is the state I am aiming for.  But I have no doubt that this will happen; after all, it took a few weeks after the demise of my old HM Powermaster back in the 80s for the GM to establish itself in my subconcious in that way.

 

I am enjoying using the app control, but of course there is still a novelty element (wow, look, I'm driving trains with my phone, how cool is that, proper 21st century, me).  It will, as I said before it arrived, depend ulitmately on my level of satisfaction with the quality of running I can achieve with it, and I have no doubts on that score; this is a very good little controller indeed, and probably the best DC controller that Hornby have ever been involved with.  To be comparable to a GM, old as the tech is nowadays, is a high standard of performance, which the HM6k aces.

[Guest]

This looks very interesting was at the point of ordering a Trax FC1-A hand held to replace my broken GM WS (my grandaughter, so a payable repair) then I came upon this thread.  I am only really interested in the sound features, but will leave off a decision on Trax for a few more days I think, I spoke to Trax this morning even, to confirm the DIN plugged one will work straight into my GM100M.  Looked at the Hornby forum thread on this and seems Android phones have issues with the sound loops pausing.  Known issue on android on with latency anyway, nowt to do with Hornby, IOS okay.

Edited May 6, 2021 by Guest
spelling

[The Johnster]

2 hours ago, Legend said:

I do run everything from old Triang , Wrenn, Hornby , Heljan, Bachmann  etc   . Have you any experience running these older models on it?

My apologies for getting carried away and forgetting to answer this question, Legend.  My locos are mostly current/recent RTR steam outline with can motors driving via idler gears, with a Baccy 94xx having a coreless motor.  There is also an antediuvian Airfix large prairie.  All of them behave predictably with the 6000, and inertia stops are very smooth.  
 

They do make a little more noise, though, and buzz slightly when power is applied before moving off.  I assume this is because the inertia circuitry uses an element of pulse width modulation.  The 94xx has not fried yet…. But this loco has firebox glow, which is noticeably brighter at any given speed than at the same speed using the GM. This can only mean that, other things being equal, the locos are drawing more current.  As this is a small BLT with low speeds and short, light trains, it does not bother me much but if you are working your locos hard at speed under load up gradients, it may be worth taking this into account.  
 

Then there is the colliery Peckett.  This is being a bit of an odd man out, and needs more care to give smooth acceleration; the answer may be more acceleration inertia.   
 

I also have a 116 dmu cut’n’shut from a Jurassic Era Lima 117.  I have not yet tried this with the 6000, but see no reason that it should not respond smoothly despite it’s insane overgearing; the trick with these is free running!

[The Johnster]

1 hour ago, confused said:

This looks very interesting was at the point of ordering a Trax FC1-A hand held to replace my broken GM WS (my grandaughter, so a payable repair) then I came upon this thread.  I am only really interested in the sound features, but will leave off a decision on Trax for a few more days I think, I spoke to Trax this morning even, to confirm the DIN plugged one will work straight into my GM100M.  Looked at the Hornby forum thread on this and seems Android phones have issues with the sound loops pausing.  Known issue on android on with latency anyway, nowt to do with Hornby, IOS okay.

I’m not impressed with the steam loco chuff, which is inevitably hopelessly out of sync and responds to acceleration in noticeable steps, but the other sounds are fine, and diesel/electric noises will probably be satisfactory, so long as you are happy to accept that they will not be as good as full fat DCC!

[RAF96]

1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

I’m not impressed with the steam loco chuff, which is inevitably hopelessly out of sync and responds to acceleration in noticeable steps, but the other sounds are fine, and diesel/electric noises will probably be satisfactory, so long as you are happy to accept that they will not be as good as full fat DCC!

 

This is simple train set sound. It would be unrealistic to expect a generic sound effect to synch with each or even any loco, given the multitude of types, wheel sizes, speeds, etc. At best you get a fairly realistic noise that sounds like a steam train at this level of sophistication. Unfortunately the android app suffers latency which is a known android audio problem. If you want pro-steam effects then you have to go DCC and pay pro-steam prices.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, The Johnster said:

I’m not impressed with the steam loco chuff, ..........but the other sounds are fine, and diesel/electric noises will probably be satisfactory, so long as you are happy to accept that they will not be as good as full fat DCC!

 

1 hour ago, RAF96 said:

...... If you want pro-steam effects then you have to go DCC and pay pro-steam prices.

I knew would not be as good as DCC but OK for me, have a Train Tech unit in a class 37 which is Ok. any ways the way this looks and saw Hby videos this evening looks as though you can only set a max speed and acceleration/deceleration in steps as in DCC and just sit back and do nothing.  I know that my GM WS inertia did similar but with my input, maybe I'm wrong.  Had a good go with DCC at a well known Lincoln shop with a large demonstration layout and DCC makes, and that was enough to put me off.

 

So now leaning back to the either another GM-WS or the Trax.  Childminding GD (3) again in morning so will no doubt want to 'play with grandads trains' least she can't pickup the GM 100M, pickup back here tomorrow afternoon.

Edited May 6, 2021 by Guest
spelling

[The Johnster]

1 hour ago, RAF96 said:

 

This is simple train set sound. It would be unrealistic to expect a generic sound effect to synch with each or even any loco, given the multitude of types, wheel sizes, speeds, etc. At best you get a fairly realistic noise that sounds like a steam train at this level of sophistication. Unfortunately the android app suffers latency which is a known android audio problem. If you want pro-steam effects then you have to go DCC and pay pro-steam prices.

Exactly; I wasn't expecting miracles, and at least I am not subject to Android latency.  As I understand it, and I'll be the first to admit my knowledge of matters DCC is abysmal, even proper pro-steam DCC sounds are sometimes difficult to sync correctly with the loco's driving wheels.  I am using the whistles, shovelling and brake release noises, and as I say there may possibly be other sounds to add with future updates; more station noises, doors slamming, barrows rumbling along platforms, signalbox bells, safety valves lifting, that sort of thing perhaps.  I am thinking it might even be possible for 3rd party apps with different sets of features to by downloaded if anyone wants to write them.  We could be at the start of a whole new genre of model railway audio!

 

Of my 17 locos, 13 have scale 4'7" driving wheels, and 2 others are 5'8".  I suppose it might be possible to include a range of steam sounds set approximately to the more common sizes of driving wheels, which would be an improvement though I'd probably still be aware of the lack of proper sychronisation and not be satisfied.  These suggestions are in the spirit of possible future improvements that might be useful within the parameters of the existing technology, not a complaint about what it is really not fair to expect from the system at this stage.  An approximation rather than proper sychronisation is the best we can expect, but, as things are, the chuff rate is far too slow, even as train set sound, as the tutorial video example with a Princess shows.  Too slow for a 4 cylinder express loco means far too slow for mixed traffic, goods, or shunting locos, or 3 cyldinder pacifics with 6'10" diameter wheels, and even worse once we are talking about Smokey Joe or scale industrials.  Maybe it would be possible at some future update to feature a chuff rate that the user could set themselves?  Perfection is probably unachievable with sound in DC of this sort, but I reckon there is room for improvement to bring the chuff rate closer to scale and thus 'less unacceptable'.  The sound quality is not that bad on headphones (my neighbours already think I'm mad, without them getting the impression that Clapham Jc has somehow materialised in the downstairs flat where that wierdo lives), certainly better than the bursts of white noise I expected!

 

I'd prefer to do without the sounds or the layout planner, and at least can simply ignore them, but I'm sure Hornby's marketing people, who are not concerned with what I want but with maximising sales and profit, have asked all these questions and come up with answers which they reckon are the best for the company.  This is as it should be; catering specifically to my requirements would probably be a surefire way of going out of business!  The basic elements of the system, the HM6000 unit and the app, work well enough (the app on IOS at least), though I have no experience of the 6010 unit and cannot comment on it.  I may go for one at some time in the future to control signals, but as I intend to continue to hand operate my turnouts and can get to the signal switches while I am doing that there is really little need.

 

In fact, this hand operating element to the layout has been improved with the 6000; the untethered nature of the app control interface in conjunction with an office chair on castors that I can kick myself up and down the layout on is proving most advantageous!

[RAF96]

Anyone that finds a fault or wishes to lodge a suggested improvement to the system can post them on the Hornby forum HM|DC section.

Hornby intends to produce updates (for app and/or module firmware) twice a year to introduce bug fixes and improvements, based on need.

[DK123GWR]

On 06/05/2021 at 20:06, The Johnster said:

They do make a little more noise, though, and buzz slightly when power is applied before moving off.  I assume this is because the inertia circuitry uses an element of pulse width modulation.  The 94xx has not fried yet…. But this loco has firebox glow, which is noticeably brighter at any given speed than at the same speed using the GM. This can only mean that, other things being equal, the locos are drawing more current.  As this is a small BLT with low speeds and short, light trains, it does not bother me much but if you are working your locos hard at speed under load up gradients, it may be worth taking this into account.  

To collate information from everybody's favourite carpet-based model railway YouTube channel for the benefit of readers here (who may not be part of that channel's target audience) there is a setting in the app which allows you to change the PWM frequency, with settings ranging from a default of around 60Hz to a maximum of 8kHz. His opinion (clearly backed up by the video) was that at low frequencies locomotives were noisy but very controllable at low speeds. At high frequencies, locos ran much more quietly, but at the expense of low speed performance. Knowing that you prioritise smooth low-speed control I imagine that you will prefer the default lower frequencies, but for those running mainline layouts with high speeds a higher frequency may be more suitable.

 

17:35 for reference.

 

 

Edited May 8, 2021 by DK123GWR
It's sometimes difficult to hear over here.

[Guest]

Good video, perhaps he could have moved up one on the PWM setting, to see if it was a compromise between slow running and noise.  My Baccy 94XX, 8750, N class are totally silent on my GM100M.  Would not want to cause long term damage, certainly not to the 94XX.  Will continue to follow this with interest.

Edited May 9, 2021 by Guest
grammar

[RAF96]

There is a comprehensive manual in addition to the quick start guide, which obviously provides much more information.

App can be set in setting to pause on exit or continue, hence answering a call will not shut it down. What will shut it down is walking out of range when the app will disconnect from the module(s).

He used Mesh connection which is the default in settings but a bit wasted if there is only one module, as it becomes its own host and child. Using the BLE option may be a simpler connection option.

[The Johnster]

'It's still flatulating'!

 

I have decided that it is unlikely that the PWM buzzing is going to be harmful to the motor on my small BLT with it's light loadings, but am going to be keeping a very close eye on my coreless 94xx.  Locoflatulation doesn't worry me much!  A very good review from Sam, and I am fully in agreement with the points he raises.  The proprietary track connection plugs are easily cut off and replaced with whatever you want, but this is probably at the risk of invalidating your warranty.  I have soldered my track feed wires by inserting them in to the ends of the plugs and soldering, in the hope that if I do ever have to return the unit under warranty which I hope I don't (if that makes sense) the supplied hardwired cables and plugs can be returned in the original condition and no issue will arise therefrom.  I would prefer to have seen proper terminals on the controller unit, but it's not the end of the world.

[RAF96]

The two pin plug provided fits nicely into a 3-amp choc block so onward wiring can go from there. No warranty issues then.

If you don’t have that size then simply push/pull the terminal pins out of the plastic binocular sleeve. They are standard Hornby crimp on pins.

Or you can just poke the terminal pins into a pair of spade connectors on your extension lead.

[The Johnster]

On 06/05/2021 at 20:06, The Johnster said:

There is also an antediuvian Airfix large prairie.

Tried this loco with the HM6k earlier and it doesn’t like it at all with the settings as they are at present, which are being developed to suit the majority of my locos.  I will drive this loco from the Gaugemaster, with which it runs very well if a little noisily.  
 

[RichardT]

Following this with interest and wondering if I might take a punt for an N BLT.  Apologies if this has already been answered elsewhere, but does the HM6k app allow the user to rename the circuit and accessory descriptions to something more meaningful to your layout (e.g. in my BLT example renaming Circuit 1 to “mainline” and Circuit 2 to “goods yard”)?

 

Richard 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, RichardT said:

Following this with interest and wondering if I might take a punt for an N BLT.  Apologies if this has already been answered elsewhere, but does the HM6k app allow the user to rename the circuit and accessory descriptions to something more meaningful to your layout (e.g. in my BLT example renaming Circuit 1 to “mainline” and Circuit 2 to “goods yard”)?

 

Richard 

Yes, someone posted the link on page 3 of thread, but here it is.  https://d63oxfkn1m8sf.cloudfront.net/5016/1789/5051/HM_._DC__Instruction_Manual_UK_1-4-2021.pdf

 

Very useful info, still debating between this and GM simulator. Also my ignorance what is a BLT layout?

Edited May 10, 2021 by Guest
grammar

[Nigelcliffe]

12 minutes ago, confused said:

Yes, someone posted the link on page 3 of thread, but here it is.  https://d63oxfkn1m8sf.cloudfront.net/5016/1789/5051/HM_._DC__Instruction_Manual_UK_1-4-2021.pdf

 

Very useful info, still debating between this and GM simulator. Also my ignorance what is a BLT layout?

 

A minor line serving a pig farm, a market garden and a bakery - bacon, lettuce tomato.

 

There were loads of them before Dr Beeching. 

 

 

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Nigelcliffe said:

 

A minor line serving a pig farm, a market garden and a bakery - bacon, lettuce tomato.

Ta

[cliff park]

I think he might be winding you up, a BLT in model railway terms is a Branch Line Terminus.

[The Johnster]

3 hours ago, confused said:

Also my ignorance what is a BLT layout?

Branch Line Terminus, an end to end layout with a scenic section containing the terminus at one end leading, via a scenic break, to a fiddle yard, effectively the 'rest of the world', which may be considered as 'off stage'.  I should not make assumtions that everyone understands this sort of jargon, please accept my apologies, Confused!

[Guest]

2 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Branch Line Terminus, an end to end layout ................I should not make assumptions that everyone understands this sort of jargon, please accept my apologies, Confused!

No worries, just couldn't get brain in gear last few days.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, cliff park said:

I think he might be winding you up, a BLT in model railway terms is a Branch Line Terminus.

Yes, I meant to type 'Ha'  not Ta. 

Edited May 10, 2021 by Guest
spelling

[RichardT]

6 hours ago, confused said:

Yes, someone posted the link on page 3 of thread, but here it is.  https://d63oxfkn1m8sf.cloudfront.net/5016/1789/5051/HM_._DC__Instruction_Manual_UK_1-4-2021.

Much appreciated confused.

 

I could see how you can rename the circuits & controllers, but there didn’t seem to be a way of renaming the accessory channels connected to the HM6010: the outputs for each unit just seen to show as “Channel n”, defined as a point, signal or whatever.  I could see that getting confusing if you have a couple of accessory units connected to a couple of circuits.  I’d hoped that you’d be able to rename each accessory channel as (e.g.) “Loop point” or “Starter signal” - or even (prototypically) with numbers. You could key those to a “signal box diagram” on the layout.

 

Not a deal breaker, but if Hornby are enabling users to rename the circuits and the devices then the ability to edit the names of the accessory channels would seem an obvious upgrade.

 

Richard

 

PS Yes  - BLT = Branch Line Terminus! In my case, one a bit like Cawood - simple and seemingly suitable for the HM6k