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Hebden Bridge (Midland)


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Some of the older RMweb members will remember the "just Supposing" series of article which appeared in the Railway Modeller in the early 1970s.

My favourite was the Dewsbury Midland scheme, an article by A Whitehead, which appeared in the December 1973 edition, which looked at the Midland railways west Riding proposals around Dewsbury and Halifax.

 I mention these articles, as they  invariably took an existing railway line and looked at the possible developments that could have taken place had things been different. Always a great excuse for a spot of armchair modelling.

This kind of thinking has always provided me with endless hours of entertainment looking at existing railways and researching history, to find what else could have been.

 

This approach found me looking at the history of the KWVR . The line runs between  Keighley through to Oxenhope along the Hope Valley. (Now preserved as the KWVR)  Looking at Oxenhope station, l noticed that the station layout would have allowed the railway to be extended beyond Oxenhope without major changes to its existing layout.

A little research proved this suspicion  to be correct, as originally planned, the station at Oxenhope was to have been built a little further away from it current position. It transpires that a bridge was constructed to take the line further before the decision was take to terminate the line in it current position. The bridge ended up by being used for road traffic.

 

 However in amongst this information was a couple of lines stating that as proposed, the line had been envisaged to be extended beyond Oxenhope and run through to Hebden Bridge on the Calder Valley line (L&Y).  Had this come to pass, what form would the KWVR line taken? 

Would it have terminated in a bay platform at the L&Y station at Hebden Bridge, resulting in a requirement for passengers to physically change trains, and the capacity to only be able to transfer light parcel traffic between lines, or more interestingly, would it have taken the form of a junction connection?

This would have allowed textile and goods from the Hope valley direct assess to Manchester and the west and vice versa. I can see no advantage for the Midland Railway to provide  passenger services beyond Hebden Bridge, however the L&Y  would be able to run through to Keighley, offering a quicker connection with Midland Anglo-Scottish services at  Keighley  than having to go through to Leeds or Bradford. It could have also open up the Hope valley area to tourism more directly from the large towns and cities of the west, with excursions into  Bronte country on a Sunday perhaps?

 

This is the option l m running with currently. I envisage a junction at the existing Hebden Bridge station, allowing through running to and from the Hope Valley. The Midland would have required a goods marshalling facility near the junction to allow local traffic to be marshalled in to suitable trains for onward despatch, plus to handle incoming goods traffic  from the L&Y network. This due to urban development and geography  would have had to be just to the north of Hebden Bridge itself, and more than likely it would have had its own single platform station in keeping with the rest of the line. I suspect it may have even been called Hebden Bridge Midland, to differentiate from the L&Y station.

 

I would very much like to hear other members thoughts on this concept, eg would it have been practical in both engineering  and financial terms, and if so what would the locos and rolling stock used been,  be if this concept had come to pass

 

If nothing else it would be a great excuse to have an Aspinal 2-4-2t  tank making is way up the Hope valley to Keighley !

 

 

Bob C

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28 minutes ago, Blobrick said:

Some of the older RMweb members will remember the "just Supposing" series of article which appeared in the Railway Modeller in the early 1970s.

My favourite was the Dewsbury Midland scheme, an article by A Whitehead, which appeared in the December 1973 edition, which looked at the Midland railways west Riding proposals around Dewsbury and Halifax.

 I mention these articles, as they  invariably took an existing railway line and looked at the possible developments that could have taken place had things been different. Always a great excuse for a spot of armchair modelling.

This kind of thinking has always provided me with endless hours of entertainment looking at existing railways and researching history, to find what else could have been.

 

This approach found me looking at the history of the KWVR . The line runs between  Keighley through to Oxenhope along the Hope Valley. (Now preserved as the KWVR)  Looking at Oxenhope station, l noticed that the station layout would have allowed the railway to be extended beyond Oxenhope without major changes to its existing layout.

A little research proved this suspicion  to be correct, as originally planned, the station at Oxenhope was to have been built a little further away from it current position. It transpires that a bridge was constructed to take the line further before the decision was take to terminate the line in it current position. The bridge ended up by being used for road traffic.

 

 However in amongst this information was a couple of lines stating that as proposed, the line had been envisaged to be extended beyond Oxenhope and run through to Hebden Bridge on the Calder Valley line (L&Y).  Had this come to pass, what form would the KWVR line taken? 

Would it have terminated in a bay platform at the L&Y station at Hebden Bridge, resulting in a requirement for passengers to physically change trains, and the capacity to only be able to transfer light parcel traffic between lines, or more interestingly, would it have taken the form of a junction connection?

This would have allowed textile and goods from the Hope valley direct assess to Manchester and the west and vice versa. I can see no advantage for the Midland Railway to provide  passenger services beyond Hebden Bridge, however the L&Y  would be able to run through to Keighley, offering a quicker connection with Midland Anglo-Scottish services at  Keighley  than having to go through to Leeds or Bradford. It could have also open up the Hope valley area to tourism more directly from the large towns and cities of the west, with excursions into  Bronte country on a Sunday perhaps?

 

This is the option l m running with currently. I envisage a junction at the existing Hebden Bridge station, allowing through running to and from the Hope Valley. The Midland would have required a goods marshalling facility near the junction to allow local traffic to be marshalled in to suitable trains for onward despatch, plus to handle incoming goods traffic  from the L&Y network. This due to urban development and geography  would have had to be just to the north of Hebden Bridge itself, and more than likely it would have had its own single platform station in keeping with the rest of the line. I suspect it may have even been called Hebden Bridge Midland, to differentiate from the L&Y station.

 

I would very much like to hear other members thoughts on this concept, eg would it have been practical in both engineering  and financial terms, and if so what would the locos and rolling stock used been,  be if this concept had come to pass

 

If nothing else it would be a great excuse to have an Aspinal 2-4-2t  tank making is way up the Hope valley to Keighley !

 

 

Bob C

 

It is important to remember that a lot of railways in this country were built with goods transportation in mind over passengers.

 

Particularly in heavily industrialised areas such as West Yorkshire. 

 

Any junction at Hebden Bridge would have almost certainly been designed to enable goods traffic to transfer between the routes. 

 

The L&Y had access to the Aire Valley Line at Skipton going via Colne aswell.

 

Edit: Spelling

Edited by Aire Head
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5 minutes ago, Aire Head said:

 

It is important to remember that a lot of railways in this country were built with goods transportation in mind over passengers.

 

Particularly in heavily industrialised areas such as West Yorkshire. 

 

Any junction at Jensen bridge would have almost certainly been designed to enable goods traffic to transfer between the routes. 

 

The L&Y had access to the Aire Valley Line at Skipton going via Colne aswell.

 

 

Hi there Aire Head

 

Totally agree, l would like to think that the Hope Valley Mill owners etc , who put up the " their hard earned Brass" for the Hope valley scheme would have been fully behind and  potential  improvements in freight traffic flow, especially to the west.  Whilst the freight traffic would have most likely made or broke the proposals,  it is interesting to wonder what the two companies would have considered as additional traffic over and above the bread and butter flows?

 

Bob C

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47 minutes ago, Blobrick said:

 

Hi there Aire Head

 

Totally agree, l would like to think that the Hope Valley Mill owners etc , who put up the " their hard earned Brass" for the Hope valley scheme would have been fully behind and  potential  improvements in freight traffic flow, especially to the west.  Whilst the freight traffic would have most likely made or broke the proposals,  it is interesting to wonder what the two companies would have considered as additional traffic over and above the bread and butter flows?

 

Bob C

 

It's a tough one. Halifax and Keighley were linked by the Great Northern. I suspect improvements in access to further North might be a bigger motivation.

 

Does it create potential for the Midland to send North/South goods trains via Halifax and Keighley this avoiding the congestion particularly around Whitehall Junction and between Leeds and Bradford?

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I think in reality, any line up from Hebden Bridge would either be hellishly steep or in a long tunnel. I’ve driven up & over between HB & Haworth many times to see friends and it’s a long steep climb before you cross the very remote & windswept hilltops.

 

it’s a plausible story for a line though and there are enough lines that Criss cross the Pennines on both sides of the hill to show that trade was there

Edited by black and decker boy
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5 minutes ago, Aire Head said:

 

It's a tough one. Halifax and Keighley were linked by the Great Northern. I suspect improvements in access to further North might be a bigger motivation.

 

Does it create potential for the Midland to send North/South goods trains via Halifax and Keighley this avoiding the congestion particularly around Whitehall Junction and between Leeds and Bradford?

 

Your second point is most interesting, a possible alternative freight flow. I had not considered that. However if that were the case, then the weight of trains and/or locomotives might put the damper on that possibility, as l am assuming that the Hope valley line  would not have been more heavily engineered than it was.

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7 minutes ago, black and decker boy said:

I think in reality, any line up from Hebden Bridge would either be hellishly steep or in a long tunnel. I’ve driven up & over between HB & Haworth many times to see friends and it’s a long steep climb before you cross the very remote & windswept hilltops.

 

it’s a plausible story for a line though and there are enough lines that Criss cross the Pennines on both sides of the hill to show that trade was there

 

Yes indeed, l wonder how much of a consideration the topography was when the line stopped at Oxenhope? Could that have been one of the reasons the line never progressed further?  Agreed that the trade and industry was there in sufficient quantity to make the scheme viable. 

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The more I think about this the more I feel that the biggest factor in this has to be what benefit it gives the Midland Railway. 

 

For any attempt to get to Hebden Bridge to be worthwhile it has to link them to somewhere "big" and be able to take traffic northbound to somewhere big.

 

The obvious southbound targets are Halifax and  then Huddersfield which the Midland had access to but I beleive it wasn't over its own lines (happy to be corrected here)

 

Northern targets can only really be Glasgow Edinburgh and Carlisle.

 

In terms of trains it doesn't probably mean expresses from Halifax to Scotland more likely the goods revenue would be the major motivator.

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5 minutes ago, Aire Head said:

The more I think about this the more I feel that the biggest factor in this has to be what benefit it gives the Midland Railway. 

 

For any attempt to get to Hebden Bridge to be worthwhile it has to link them to somewhere "big" and be able to take traffic northbound to somewhere big.

 

The obvious southbound targets are Halifax and  then Huddersfield which the Midland had access to but I beleive it wasn't over its own lines (happy to be corrected here)

 

Northern targets can only really be Glasgow Edinburgh and Carlisle.

 

In terms of trains it doesn't probably mean expresses from Halifax to Scotland more likely the goods revenue would be the major motivator.

 

Totally agree, l don't see this scheme in terms of the West Riding  scheme, with through passenger traffic north/south, but more of a logical completion of an existing scheme. 

Allowing local freight traffic an open route to the west without having to work east first.  Any additional passenger traffic would be light, as it still  very much a secondary/branch line railway. To me that's the fun of this type of exercise, in that its working out what is feasible and suitable for the infrastructure all ready in place.

It would not be the same atmosphere if the branch were to be up graded to allow heavier trains. 

According to Google, the distance to Keighley from Manchester is a little under 50 miles approximately via this route, so l feel its not beyond the realms of possibility for a passenger service between these two points to be worked solely by small light tank locomotives, without the requirement to upgrade the branch for bigger locomotives?

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I think if you want to imagine Keighley to Hebden Bridge as a branch line in the same feel as the line to Oxenhope, the station at HB needs to be a disconnected BLT. But HB itself doesn't look like a big enough place to  ever justify such a line; it would only really work if it connected with the existing route. In which case you'd be looking at double track and heavy freight to make it worthwhile, even if the passenger service was 2 coaches and an 0-4-4 (or Midland equivalent).

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11 hours ago, Aire Head said:

The more I think about this the more I feel that the biggest factor in this has to be what benefit it gives the Midland Railway. 

 

For any attempt to get to Hebden Bridge to be worthwhile it has to link them to somewhere "big" and be able to take traffic northbound to somewhere big.

 

The obvious southbound targets are Halifax and  then Huddersfield which the Midland had access to but I beleive it wasn't over its own lines (happy to be corrected here)

 

Northern targets can only really be Glasgow Edinburgh and Carlisle.

 

In terms of trains it doesn't probably mean expresses from Halifax to Scotland more likely the goods revenue would be the major motivator.

 

The benefit to the Midland Railway would be a big factor.  Through their lines in West Yorkshire there were a number of proposals to find routes west of the Pennines into towns already served by the L&Y/LNWR.

 

You have mentioned Skipton to Colne, which was an end on junction with the L&Y. (Despite being in the heart of east Lancashire, Colne was actually a Midland station, not that you would know in its current state at the end of a long siding with a bus shelter on its one platform.)

 

There was also the Preston and Longridge Railway, dating from 1846, which had plans to build a line from Grimsargh via Ribchester and Clitheroe to Skipton.  That line wasn't built, but when the proposal was revived in 1866 to complete the branch line from Longridge through to Skipton, it was supported by the Midland, as it would have given them a route into Preston.  In order to stop that, the L&Y/LNWR purchased the line and it ended its days as just another L&Y branch line.

 

Your proposed line through Hebden Bridge would give the Midland access to Manchester Victoria, via Todmorden and Rochdale.  I know the Midland already had a station at Manchester Central, via its interests in the Cheshire Lines Committee, but that was the other side of the city and until recently there wasn't a convenient link between the lines to the north and south of Manchester city centre.  Plus the goods traffic at Manchester Central was controlled by the Great Northern.

 

Gaining access to the northern side of Manchester would give the Midland access to the Lancashire coalfield, and to the possibility of running holiday traffic from West Yorkshire to Blackpool in the days when everybody went to the seaside for their two weeks holiday.

 

As you can probably tell, I like the 'just supposing' idea as well, and I think constructing a plausible back story is half the fun of modelling.

 

Cheers

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I suppose one possibility for the route remaining a bit of a branch that linked Keighley and HB would be if it weren't Midland at all, but had been built from the south end, to enable the railway there (L&Y? I'm not familiar with the area at all) access to the upper Aire valley. I could imagine (just looking at Google aerial photography) a second route through Keighley and Silsden to Skipton, possibly with a twig to Ilkley.

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10 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

I suppose one possibility for the route remaining a bit of a branch that linked Keighley and HB would be if it weren't Midland at all, but had been built from the south end, to enable the railway there (L&Y? I'm not familiar with the area at all) access to the upper Aire valley. I could imagine (just looking at Google aerial photography) a second route through Keighley and Silsden to Skipton, possibly with a twig to Ilkley.

Very interesting thought, so the L&Y could have decided to link up with the Midland, extending north from Hebden bridge to meet up around Oxenhope. As they would have had the major benefit, logically the L&Y would have carried the majority of the cost. With agreed running powers over the L&Y section, the Midland would gain access to the west with minimal outlay.

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16 minutes ago, Blobrick said:

Very interesting thought, so the L&Y could have decided to link up with the Midland, extending north from Hebden bridge to meet up around Oxenhope. As they would have had the major benefit, logically the L&Y would have carried the majority of the cost. With agreed running powers over the L&Y section, the Midland would gain access to the west with minimal outlay.


It certainly makes sense if seen as part of the Midland Railway’s other wider ambitions in the area which, sadly, never came to fruition.  In particular the MR’s plans for a line northwards from Huddersfield to Elland, which of course could then link with the L&Y Calder Valley line there to reach Hebden Bridge. 

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42 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

I could imagine (just looking at Google aerial photography) a second route through Keighley and Silsden to Skipton,

 

Sadly Geography intervenes here and such a route would have very significant challenges.

 

The Aire Valley Line and Wharfedale lines are the way they are because that's the only real way to do it.

 

It's more likely that any route to Skipton would join the Aire Valley Line and then onwards rather than trying to offer an alternative way.

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If you look at the topography if Hebden Bridge, any line towards Oxenhope would head north to Hard add Crags before turning east, possibly with tunnels under the highest moorland.

 

within Hebden Bridge, I don’t see any connection being realistic at the existing Calder Valley station, a connection would have to be further west so maybe a second station would be ‘right’ in our parallel world with a west facing connection to the Calder Valley & copy pit line or maybe a triangle if we think traffic could head back to Halifax or Brighouse/Elland?

 

I suppose one starting point is freight sources in the Aire Valley that would benefit with a shorter & faster connection to the west.

cotton / wool

coal?

agriculture?

stone?

Raw materials from MSC docks or Liverpool docks?

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28 minutes ago, black and decker boy said:

If you look at the topography if Hebden Bridge, any line towards Oxenhope would head north to Hard add Crags before turning east, possibly with tunnels under the highest moorland.

 

within Hebden Bridge, I don’t see any connection being realistic at the existing Calder Valley station, a connection would have to be further west so maybe a second station would be ‘right’ in our parallel world with a west facing connection to the Calder Valley & copy pit line or maybe a triangle if we think traffic could head back to Halifax or Brighouse/Elland?

 

I suppose one starting point is freight sources in the Aire Valley that would benefit with a shorter & faster connection to the west.

cotton / wool

coal?

agriculture?

stone?

Raw materials from MSC docks or Liverpool docks?

 

A more direct route to the west sounds sensible, cutting out the congestion around Bradford and Leeds. However l suspect that would mean a double track layout to accommodate the expected freight traffic, ever though the branch ws built with doubling in mind, this distracts  from the branch atmosphere l wished to maintain.

So whilst a through connection to the L&Y at Hebden Bridge is attractive, if l wish to maintain a single line railway, perhaps a BLT at Hebden is a better answer? There goes my chance of using Aspinal 2-4-2 tanks!

 

Bob C

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1 hour ago, black and decker boy said:

I suppose one starting point is freight sources in the Aire Valley that would benefit with a shorter & faster connection to the west.

cotton / wool

coal?

agriculture?

stone?

Raw materials from MSC docks or Liverpool docks?

 

1) Wool

 

2) Lots of Coal

 

3) Predominantly Cattle/Livestock Farming in that area of Airedale.

 

4) Lots of Limestone Quarry further up towards the top of the Dale and onwards.

 

5) Heysham generated traffic towards Tees and Immingham (mainly Chemicals the only train I am aware of to Liverpool was a passenger train from Bradford which went through Colne and then onto the L&Y network to Liverpool.

 

6) Significant amounts of Heavy Engineering and Metals were moved by the Aire Valley Route.

 

32 minutes ago, Blobrick said:

There goes my chance of using Aspinal 2-4-2 tanks!

 

Depends on your era. Mannigham Shed received an Allocation of L&Y 2-4-2Ts during the LMS period and these were present working local services in the area until the 1950s.

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6 hours ago, Zomboid said:

even if the passenger service was 2 coaches and an 0-4-4 (or Midland equivalent).

Actually, that combination of 2 coaches and an 0-4-4 tank version, would a 100% 'typical' Midland approach.

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1 hour ago, Blobrick said:

So whilst a through connection to the L&Y at Hebden Bridge is attractive, if l wish to maintain a single line railway, perhaps a BLT at Hebden is a better answer? There goes my chance of using Aspinal 2-4-2 tanks!

If you want it to be an L&Y branch, then have the BLT at Keighley and run the line to HB. If you want it to be some kind of dual company route then the single line branch is unlikely.

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18 minutes ago, kevinlms said:

Actually, that combination of 2 coaches and an 0-4-4 tank version, would a 100% 'typical' Midland approach.

Absolutely, the local service along the branch in my early 1950s period was indeed a 1P and two non corridor coaches. However l ve yet to find any photos showing freight traffic on the branch. I sadly doubt that by this point, the 1fs would have ventured far from Keighley, leaving the 3F 0-6-0 to work goods traffic?

 

Up until 1952, a 0-4-4t, a 0-6-0 3F, and 2 x 1f 0-6-0t were allocated to Keighley shed, which l believe was a sub shed of Manningham.  Its possible other locos from Manningham were diagrammed to work up and back along the branch in their daily roster, but l ve found no evidence.

 

I had hoped that the L&Y connection at Hebden Bridge would have allowed  2-4-2t s to work traffic off the L&Y network through to Keighley, however from where?  I think Manchester via Hebden to Keighley although under 50 miles, is asking a lot of a 2-4-2t and would most likely be a larger tank loco?  So l m starting to struggle with validity of using a 2-4-2t in the first place

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11 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

If you want it to be an L&Y branch, then have the BLT at Keighley and run the line to HB. If you want it to be some kind of dual company route then the single line branch is unlikely.

 

Unfortunately l now have to totally agree  :(

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1 hour ago, Blobrick said:

Up until 1952, a 0-4-4t, a 0-6-0 3F, and 2 x 1f 0-6-0t were allocated to Keighley shed, which l believe was a sub shed of Manningham.  Its possible other locos from Manningham were diagrammed to work up and back along the branch in their daily roster, but l ve found no evidence

 

While not on the actual branch this is an L&Y tank at Keighley on a Bradford Skipton working.00-0-a-b-atkinson-collection-030-081.jpg.dc44c834704d451583dfdc8edc5f04de.jpg

 

Keighley was a sub-shed of Manningham and the L&Y tanks got roped into some unlikely duties (one got used as a banking loco until they realised it usually made things worse) so it's not beyond the realms of possibility that one got roped into working the branch. Particularly if the usual loco was in for repairs.

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