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Hebden Bridge (Midland)


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1 hour ago, Aire Head said:

 

While not on the actual branch this is an L&Y tank at Keighley on a Bradford Skipton working.00-0-a-b-atkinson-collection-030-081.jpg.dc44c834704d451583dfdc8edc5f04de.jpg

 

Keighley was a sub-shed of Manningham and the L&Y tanks got roped into some unlikely duties (one got used as a banking loco until they realised it usually made things worse) so it's not beyond the realms of possibility that one got roped into working the branch. Particularly if the usual loco was in for repairs.

Many thanks for this info Aire head, that offers possibilities and maybe an excuse to add just one 2-4-2t to my loco roster 

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16 hours ago, Aire Head said:

 

While not on the actual branch this is an L&Y tank at Keighley on a Bradford Skipton working.00-0-a-b-atkinson-collection-030-081.jpg.dc44c834704d451583dfdc8edc5f04de.jpg

 

Keighley was a sub-shed of Manningham and the L&Y tanks got roped into some unlikely duties (one got used as a banking loco until they realised it usually made things worse) so it's not beyond the realms of possibility that one got roped into working the branch. Particularly if the usual loco was in for repairs.

 

 

This photo has got me thinking again.

 

As we ve discussed, a through connection at HB off the L&Y Calder Valley lines would mean double track infrastructure , with heavier trains. So if we stick to the Midland Railway  BLT at HB, we can maintain the lighter single line infrastructure. If once the  Midland BLT  was built at HB, could  it possibly have became apparent that some of the existing services on the branch  could be extended  further north to say, Skipton? 

As the above picture show a Skipton - Bradford service, would it be to much of a stretch to assume a similar service connecting the L&Y to Skipton via Keighley?

 

Bob C

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The Midland had access to Lancashire via Hellifield for Scotch traffic (indeed the express passenger service between Manchester Victoria, Bolton, and Blackburn, and also from Liverpool, was pretty much a Midland operation, quite apart from the Midland's goods trains) and also via Skipton and Colne for Lancashire traffic to Leeds and Bradford. What the Midland lacked was good access to the less glamorous parts of the West Riding - Halifax and Huddersfield - at least until the bit of the West Riding Lines that actually was built, was built. Those lines provided access from the south. How much was to be gained by access to those towns from the north was clearly questionable. I think one can see why such a line wasn't built, quite apart from the tunnel under Howarth Moor. It's not as if the Midland was averse to tunnelling when it considered there was an economic justification!

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12 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

The Midland had access to Lancashire via Hellifield for Scotch traffic (indeed the express passenger service between Manchester Victoria, Bolton, and Blackburn, and also from Liverpool, was pretty much a Midland operation, quite apart from the Midland's goods trains) and also via Skipton and Colne for Lancashire traffic to Leeds and Bradford. What the Midland lacked was good access to the less glamorous parts of the West Riding - Halifax and Huddersfield - at least until the bit of the West Riding Lines that actually was built, was built. Those lines provided access from the south. How much was to be gained by access to those towns from the north was clearly questionable. I think one can see why such a line wasn't built, quite apart from the tunnel under Howarth Moor. It's not as if the Midland was averse to tunnelling when it considered there was an economic justification!

Hi there Compound 

 

Yes you are absolutely correct, with the existing lines already in place, there would be little or no justification in extending the line south from Oxenhope to Hebden without some form of major advantage.

This is why l ve revised my thinking , and I now trying  to  work around a simple (Cheap!) continuation of the existing line to Hebden Bridge, without any form of connection to the L&Y as was originally planned. 

 

As previously discussed it would be a shot in the foot to push the line further to HB and not have any form of connection with the L&Y, but with a connection, the whole thing then starts to snow ball ending up with a double track secondary route.  So currently l m thinking of the most basic (Cheap) way of extending the line south,  but as you have mentioned earth works /tunnels etc. are a major expense, so please  pardon the pun, but without freight traffic as justification is a bit of an up hill struggle to justify any further extension from Oxenhope.

However imagination is a wonderful thing, and it does keep me off the streets!

 

Bob C

 

 

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I recall reading in one of the railway magazines many years ago an article discussing the Midland Railway's plans for the Worth Valley line. These included continuing up the Worth Valley from near Mytholmes tunnel over "t'herders" to Laneshawbridge to connect with the L&Y at Colne. Obviously this never materialised but I suspect would have meant a triangular junction in Keighley. It may well have been in the same article that I read of their plans to continue the line from Oxenhope through a tunnel to Hebden Bridge.

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5 minutes ago, 60021 Pen-y-Ghent said:

These included continuing up the Worth Valley from near Mytholmes tunnel over "t'herders" to Laneshawbridge to connect with the L&Y at Colne.

 

While I don't dispute that this was written it makes no sense to me as the Midland had a connection to Colne direct from Skipton nearly 20 years before the KWVR was built.

 

In fact the line from Skipton to Colne was built by the Leeds and Bradford Extension Railway before the route was acquired by the Midland.

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On 21/02/2021 at 08:03, Aire Head said:

Further to @Zomboid the KWVR was built with the capacity for increasing to double track should they be able to make it to Halifax.

 

I ve spent a few days thinking about this facet .

This would not have been the first scheme to think "big" and plan for future up grades like double track, just like the East Somerset Railway built with an eye on becoming double track, but never built  due to the expected traffic not materialising.

 

However l wondered if a situation similar to Chard jct on the LSWR could have arisen?  Chard Road (later Junction) as it was called when first opened, was about 3 1/2 miles from Chard itself, the "Road" part of the name gives the game away that this station is not in Chard. The GWR had a station actually in Chard and as l understand it the LSWR  decided to build a short branch from their main line station on the LSWR to an end on connection with the GWR at Chard. I seem to recall there was a connection with allowed freight traffic (Milk tanks perhaps) to be exchange between lines.

 

Could a similar situation have developed between the Midland BLT station in Hebden Bridge and the L&Y Hebden Bridge station, where it could be viable to have a connection between the two companies without a full blown double track connection?  It would have been the cheapest way to test the waters without committing to much capital, and could have been up graded if traffic was generated.

 

Bob C

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Somebody seems to have thought it a good idea: Manchester, Hebden Bridge & Keighley Junction Railway.

Referenced in David Joy's Regional History of the Railways of Great Britain vol 8 (South and West Yorkshire). Proposed use of the atmospheric system as a possible form of traction and numbering among its promoters the Rrev. Patrick Bronte.

 

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/c/F178587

 

 

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20 hours ago, 60021 Pen-y-Ghent said:

Somebody seems to have thought it a good idea: Manchester, Hebden Bridge & Keighley Junction Railway.

Referenced in David Joy's Regional History of the Railways of Great Britain vol 8 (South and West Yorkshire). Proposed use of the atmospheric system as a possible form of traction and numbering among its promoters the Rrev. Patrick Bronte.

 

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/c/F178587

 

 

 

Thanks for the link Pen-y-Ghent, that interesting,.

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On 22/02/2021 at 12:08, 60021 Pen-y-Ghent said:

I recall reading in one of the railway magazines many years ago an article discussing the Midland Railway's plans for the Worth Valley line. These included continuing up the Worth Valley from near Mytholmes tunnel over "t'herders" to Laneshawbridge to connect with the L&Y at Colne. Obviously this never materialised but I suspect would have meant a triangular junction in Keighley. It may well have been in the same article that I read of their plans to continue the line from Oxenhope through a tunnel to Hebden Bridge.

 

On 22/02/2021 at 12:16, Aire Head said:

 

While I don't dispute that this was written it makes no sense to me as the Midland had a connection to Colne direct from Skipton nearly 20 years before the KWVR was built.

 

In fact the line from Skipton to Colne was built by the Leeds and Bradford Extension Railway before the route was acquired by the Midland.

I have found a reference in Peter E Baughan's book "The Midland Railway North of Leeds" which might be pertinent here. I quote:

 

On August 14, 1890, a new and potentially dangerous company — the North West Central Railway—had appeared with an Act empowering it to make a series of thirteen railways connecting Preston, Whalley, Colne, and Keighley. In effect the latter portion was to leave the G.N.R. south of Keighley by a triangular junction and run north-west towards Colne where spurs made junctions with the L.Y.R. East Lancashire line, and the Midland's Skipton—CoIne branch, the main N.VV.C. line continuing on to Whalley. It was another of those schemes which had appeared from time to time with a novel route and which hoped to gain a backer later. It would appear from the Act that the company had close associations with the Manchester Sheffield & Lincolnshire and West Lancashire Railways, for working and maintenance powers were permitted to the two companies; running powers were also granted over the West Lancashire line into Preston station.

 

(End of quote).

 

Perhaps it was in reaction to this that the Midland proposed the line from the Worth valley to Colne.

 

 

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/fdd87f5d-023a-4f09-8d96-5ab449d62093

 

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C993123

 

Regards

David

Edited by 60021 Pen-y-Ghent
To add 2nd link
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8 hours ago, 60021 Pen-y-Ghent said:

 

I have found a reference in Peter E Baughan's book "The Midland Railway North of Leeds" which might be pertinent here. I quote:

 

On August 14, 1890, a new and potentially dangerous company — the North West Central Railway—had appeared with an Act empowering it to make a series of thirteen railways connecting Preston, Whalley, Colne, and Keighley. In effect the latter portion was to leave the G.N.R. south of Keighley by a triangular junction and run north-west towards Colne where spurs made junctions with the L.Y.R. East Lancashire line, and the Midland's Skipton—CoIne branch, the main N.VV.C. line continuing on to Whalley. It was another of those schemes which had appeared from time to time with a novel route and which hoped to gain a backer later. It would appear from the Act that the company had close associations with the Manchester Sheffield & Lincolnshire and West Lancashire Railways, for working and maintenance powers were permitted to the two companies; running powers were also granted over the West Lancashire line into Preston station.

 

(End of quote).

 

Perhaps it was in reaction to this that the Midland proposed the line from the Worth valley to Colne.

 

 

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/fdd87f5d-023a-4f09-8d96-5ab449d62093

 

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C993123

 

Regards

David

 

 

Thank you for taking the time to both look this up and add it to the thread. 

 

Bob C

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On 27/02/2021 at 13:40, 60021 Pen-y-Ghent said:

Perhaps it was in reaction to this that the Midland proposed the line from the Worth valley to Colne.

 

 

Conveniently today I had a good drove up around this area and by chance found myself driving from Haworth and towards Colne.

 

I can certainly see the way the route would have run however as stated earlier it would pick up absolutely nothing of note along the way.

 

However your suggestion of this proposal being a defensive measure to keep the Lancashire and Yorkshire and the Great Central away from Keighley and the Aire Valley does sound plausible.

 

I think given this it's likely that the proposal was very unlikely to have been built even if given the go ahead (don't forget the Midland did try to back out of the S&C).

 

@Blobrick if your looking for a reason to model a single track branchline in this part of the world I think extending the Yorkshire Dales Railway from Grassington up to Kettlewell makes the most sense as something that could realistically have happened.

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1 hour ago, Aire Head said:

 

Conveniently today I had a good drove up around this area and by chance found myself driving from Haworth and towards Colne.

 

I can certainly see the way the route would have run however as stated earlier it would pick up absolutely nothing of note along the way.

 

However your suggestion of this proposal being a defensive measure to keep the Lancashire and Yorkshire and the Great Central away from Keighley and the Aire Valley does sound plausible.

 

I think given this it's likely that the proposal was very unlikely to have been built even if given the go ahead (don't forget the Midland did try to back out of the S&C).

 

@Blobrick if your looking for a reason to model a single track branchline in this part of the world I think extending the Yorkshire Dales Railway from Grassington up to Kettlewell makes the most sense as something that could realistically have happened.

 

 

Hi Aire Head, funnily, l only just  put out a request on RMweb last week, to identify which early 1970s Railway Modeller contained the article of a proposed Kettlewell branch (April 1974) of whichI which l now have a copy of. Kettlewell has always been on my list of possibilities , especially as the proposed extension could have gone as far north as Hawes and then onto the S&C.

 

Bob C

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Blobrick said:

 

 

Hi Aire Head, funnily, l only just  put out a request on RMweb last week, to identify which early 1970s Railway Modeller contained the article of a proposed Kettlewell branch (April 1974) of whichI which l now have a copy of. Kettlewell has always been on my list of possibilities , especially as the proposed extension could have gone as far north as Hawes and then onto the S&C.

 

Bob C

 

 

 

The reason they stopped at Grassington was because they didn't have to build a bridge over the River Wharfe so it's easy to imagine they pushed onto Kettlewell.

 

You could always make up a reason, probably limestone quarrying, as to why the Midland decided to push on to Kettlewell.

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If it's Midland branch lines in Craven you're after, have a good look at @Mrkirtley800's Kirkby Malham:

The supposed route follows the Aire up through Airton from a junction at Bell busk, I believe. Airton would make an interesting little model, taking some cues from Idridgehay on the Wirksworth branch, perhaps:

Or Oakworth on the Keighley & Worth Valley.

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If you wanted another fictional option you could instead go to Grassington via Burnsall.

 

This would involve a Junction at either Addingham or Bolton Abbey. Past the Abbey itself, follow the curve of the valley through Barden, Howgill, Appletreewick, Burnsall, Hebden and then Grassington.

 

It's also coincidentally one of the most beautiful parts of Yorkshire and I suspect be very popular with tourists was such a line to exist.

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2 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

I'm all for pushing on to Buckden* then tunneling through into Wensleydale.

 

*Also done as a terminus many moons ago I believe.

 

Go a bit further along to Cray and you probably have the shortest tunnel going towards Newbiggin and Thoralby and the you have West Burton and Aysgarth to choose from.

 

However I suspect if you make it to Wensleydale it then become a prime candidate for Doubling.

 

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5 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

I'm all for pushing on to Buckden* then tunneling through into Wensleydale.

 

*Also done as a terminus many moons ago I believe.

Well there were abortive (and hare-brained?) schemes to do just that to link East Lancs with the North East via Hellifield, Wharfedale and Wensleydale.

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Thank you Gents, I really appreciate your input to this subject. You ve all given me lots to think about.

As an aside, l ve in Belper for a few years , whilst working in Derby, and did a bit of exploration around the Denby and Wirksworth branches. Lots on Midland items still standing, but these areas just don't have the feel of further north. Thanks for the link to MrKirtley800's page, but l m already following that one too!

 

Thanks so much guys

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