TEAMYAKIMA Posted February 21, 2021 Share Posted February 21, 2021 (edited) Hello I have a problem............................. I have an exhibition layout based on a large Chinese industrial city in 2004. In those days (and probably today) they were very heavily polluted and when I was there at that time I rarely if ever saw the sun. Consequently, I have never built an exhibition lighting rig. Let me make this clear, if I was modelling Cuba or The Philippines I would flood the layout with white light, but I'm not modelling Cuba or The Philipines. Now, my operating team are trying to persuade me to add a lighting rig ... because, quote, "all other layouts have one!" I am yet to be convinced, but a new idea has been aired - add not white LEDs but some other colour - orange? Are there any theatre lighting engineers out there with any ideas To give you an idea - here is an early version of our backscene Edited February 21, 2021 by TEAMYAKIMA Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johndon Posted February 21, 2021 Share Posted February 21, 2021 If you can get a hold of a copy, there is an excellent article on layout lighting in issue 274 of Model Railway Journal entitled 'Theatre and Model Railways', well worth a read... John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SP Steve Posted February 22, 2021 Share Posted February 22, 2021 There's an article in the 1991 MRJ No.46 edition by Dave Rowe entitled "Morning, Noon and Night Layout Lighting" detailing how he experimented with lighting effects to simulate the changing hue of sunlight at various times of the day. Since being written a lot of the technology will have changed such as LED lighting and modern dimmers but the reasoning should still be pertinent to your situation. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dagworth Posted February 22, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 22, 2021 It might be worth getting hold of some colour changeable LED tape and see what colours give you the effects you want. Andi 2 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbishop Posted February 22, 2021 Share Posted February 22, 2021 Paul, very unconvinced that you need a lighting rig. If my memory is correct you have lights within the apartment blocks, the shops and in the passenger carriages. Any overhead lighting will leech out the on layout lighting. You could add yard towers and street lighting (?) but otherwise leave well alone. Most venues nowadays are well lit - even Warley! Bill 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEAMYAKIMA Posted February 22, 2021 Author Share Posted February 22, 2021 (edited) 24 minutes ago, bbishop said: Paul, very unconvinced that you need a lighting rig. If my memory is correct you have lights within the apartment blocks, the shops and in the passenger carriages. Any overhead lighting will leech out the on layout lighting. You could add yard towers and street lighting (?) but otherwise leave well alone. Most venues nowadays are well lit - even Warley! Bill Bill Personally, I agree with you. especially as I have just spent weeks and weeks adding lighting in the coaches so that viewers can see all the details I've added. I/we are trying to make the layout more viewer friendly and more eye-catching and it is my operating team who think a pelmet with lighting will achieve that goal. I agree with you that improving the lighting will diminish the impact of the lit shops and passenger trains. The suggestion has been made that using orange(?) lighting will brighten the layout but enhance the polluted atmosphere concept of the backscene - I am prepared to experiment just to keep them happy but personally I think it will devalue all the work I've done on lit interiors. Edited February 22, 2021 by TEAMYAKIMA 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted February 22, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 22, 2021 I’ve seen your layout and reckon it’s one of the best evocations of a grim industrial scene I’ve ever encountered; I’d agree that it’s fine as it is in all it’s concrete grittiness. If you are going for a lighting rig, I reckon warm white leds with different power levels will recreate the pale polluted dusty atmosphere, diffused as much as possible to avoid the ‘bright sunny day’ look. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEAMYAKIMA Posted February 22, 2021 Author Share Posted February 22, 2021 14 minutes ago, The Johnster said: I’ve seen your layout and reckon it’s one of the best evocations of a grim industrial scene I’ve ever encountered; I’d agree that it’s fine as it is in all it’s concrete grittiness. If you are going for a lighting rig, I reckon warm white leds with different power levels will recreate the pale polluted dusty atmosphere, diffused as much as possible to avoid the ‘bright sunny day’ look. Thanks, I'll experiment with that Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
298 Posted February 23, 2021 Share Posted February 23, 2021 (edited) Will the layout also need some kind of cover to reduce the amount of background light and help frame the scene? +1 for the LED colour changing tape (currently through the remote as I'm yet to program it from an Arduino), I tend to use a dim orange or brighter blue/white on a nighttime project, or sometimes the Hollywood theatrical blue that looks good but quite unrealistic when you think about it. I did think it could be used to balance the unnatural ambient light used in some venues, but found that that is something your eyes become accustomed to and any corrections have a reverse effect. Edited February 23, 2021 by 298 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
298 Posted February 23, 2021 Share Posted February 23, 2021 As an experiment and to give you something recognisable I delved into a borrowed collection of Cuban stock to pose this Chino on my nighttime HO layout "Blue Heron" and selected different colours on the LED strip controller. There are obvious limitations with the way the camera responds and exposes the colours, but as examples we have... Blue: Light blue: Yellow: Orange: Something else I need to do is increase the brightness of the sodium lighting in the background and the globes of the street lamps so they illuminate the ground. It's been fun building a nocturnal layout but the lighting projects have increased the build time by several fold as I reckon on something more complex such as a vehicle it takes an hour to add one LED, once it's been mounted and any unwanted light bleed corrected. 3 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted February 23, 2021 Share Posted February 23, 2021 (edited) Something to bear in mind regarding a "daylight" scene is that even on a horribly overcast and gloomy day, lighting levels outside are surprisingly high when compared with even a well-lit indoor space. Good daylight is about 10 000 lux, an overcast day 1 000lux, and even commercial offices are only lit to about 500 lux at the desk. "Gloominess" is as much a function of colour-temperature as illumination level*, and it may be that TY's layout operators really do need more light, and that the key to retaining the gritty look is to get the colour-temperature right. An overcast sky has a colour-temperature c6500k, which will fall towards perhaps 3000k at a rosy sunset. Nice, cheerful daylight is above 8000k. Many "daylight" lighting installations only get to c5000k**, and you might have to buy specialist, commercial kit, to get above that. To repeat at the risk of patronising, these figures define the colour, not the intensity - you can have a lot of light, or a little, at any colour. *Semi-relevant anecdote: for a while in the 80s, I worked in an office which was prone to winter-afternoon gloom, to the degree where one of my colleagues would routinely nod-off. It had really poorly-designed lighting, based on lots of low-wattage filament lamps, which when turned-on instantly made it seem darker than it had been before, simply because their colour-temperature was too far on the red side of the scale. ** Google instantly found "nature white daylight" LED strip, which only achieves 4500k, the colour of a very overcast day! Edited February 23, 2021 by Nearholmer 2 2 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted February 23, 2021 Share Posted February 23, 2021 (edited) PS: This is very useful as an intro https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kruithof_curve#:~:text=At typical indoor office illuminance levels of about,are even lower (between 2400 and 2700 K). This is all about creating pleasant lighting, but TY may actually be aiming to create unpleasant lighting, probably on the red, rather than the blue, side of the scale, to get the desired atmosphere. Edited February 23, 2021 by Nearholmer Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted February 23, 2021 Share Posted February 23, 2021 (edited) To illustrate the point about outdoor and indoor lighting levels and colours, how’s about this. The window reveal in my study, lit by a fairly gloomy and overcast afternoon, and part of the wall of the study, lit by the “daylight” ceiling lamp that everyone in the family, except me, says is far too bright, and far too harsh. It probably achieves 400 lux at 4200k at the wall. My guess is that the light from outdoors is achieving well over 1000 lux at maybe 5000k. The paint is the same colour throughout - pale sky grey. And, another shot, nothing different except what the phone-came is using as its reference point. Notice that the shadows fall into the room, making the point that even poor exterior daylight is brighter than good interior lighting. Edited February 23, 2021 by Nearholmer Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEAMYAKIMA Posted February 25, 2021 Author Share Posted February 25, 2021 On 23/02/2021 at 13:28, Nearholmer said: Something to bear in mind regarding a "daylight" scene is that even on a horribly overcast and gloomy day, lighting levels outside are surprisingly high when compared with even a well-lit indoor space. Good daylight is about 10 000 lux, an overcast day 1 000lux, and even commercial offices are only lit to about 500 lux at the desk. "Gloominess" is as much a function of colour-temperature as illumination level*, and it may be that TY's layout operators really do need more light, and that the key to retaining the gritty look is to get the colour-temperature right. Thank you so much for this. As I feared this is a subject which requires considerable research and experimentation. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luke_stevens Posted February 25, 2021 Share Posted February 25, 2021 3 hours ago, TEAMYAKIMA said: Thank you so much for this. As I feared this is a subject which requires considerable research and experimentation. That's what we here for! Luke (but no more research that we put into the rest of out models...) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted February 25, 2021 Share Posted February 25, 2021 Thinking more about this, the challenge is to create something that people perceive as a gloomy afternoon (sounds as if you already have!), rather than the actual lighting conditions of a gloomy afternoon, because if you do the latter, I think people might well perceive it as too bright, and too blue, against the ambient lighting of a even a "well lit" exhibition hall. Trouble is, our eyes are fairly good at adjusting for different levels and colours of lighting, and then our brains confuse matters further by making comparisons that we aren't even conscious of. Maybe see if you can increase the lighting level a bit for the benefit of operators, while retaining the colour ........ more lamps, of exactly the same kind? You can always switch the extra ones off if you find it too bright! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEAMYAKIMA Posted February 26, 2021 Author Share Posted February 26, 2021 On 23/02/2021 at 13:47, Nearholmer said: PS: This is very useful as an intro https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kruithof_curve#:~:text=At typical indoor office illuminance levels of about,are even lower (between 2400 and 2700 K). This is all about creating pleasant lighting, but TY may actually be aiming to create unpleasant lighting One of my team members (Luke) has agreed to build a mock-up of a lighting pelmet and we will set up one board and experiment and come to a consensus Unfortunately, I can't find the original photo, but here is a pdf of a something we display with the layout to explain graphically what we are trying to emulate........... INDUSTRIAL CHINA.pdf Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted February 26, 2021 Share Posted February 26, 2021 Manchester 1895. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
EddieB Posted February 26, 2021 Share Posted February 26, 2021 Adding grey lighting? I'm wondering whether lighting alone will achieve the desired effects, especially if the models and scenery are coloured too strongly. The effect of pollution is to reduce visibility and soften lighting. I tend to judge daylight darkness by whether shadows form at all - they do with light cloud cover, but can disappear altogether on the worst days. With distance all colours fade to grey (more strongly with rain/water vapour/pollutants) so there should be very little contrast in the backscenes; a mere suggestion of what might be lurking through the gloom. For an industrial or heavily-polluted landscape, the "grey fade" might carry a hint of yellow or orange to give an impression of something nasty and acrid hanging in the air. By way of example, I've taken the original backscene picture and reduced its contrast and slightly lifted the brightness. Is it closer to what is desired? (The black on the roofs of the building is still too heavy). Truth is, there may have to be some compromise between modelling skill/detail and impressionist art! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luke_stevens Posted March 7, 2021 Share Posted March 7, 2021 On 26/02/2021 at 16:40, EddieB said: With distance all colours fade to grey (more strongly with rain/water vapour/pollutants) so there should be very little contrast in the backscenes; a mere suggestion of what might be lurking through the gloom. For an industrial or heavily-polluted landscape, the "grey fade" might carry a hint of yellow or orange to give an impression of something nasty and acrid hanging in the air. Being the "Luke" that Teamyakima is talking about I thought I should throw in a comment. The smog that Teamyakima is talking about overpowers any grey that occurs through distance. It is sickly yellow-green (basically unburnt hydrocarbons) that pervades everything. A confession, I haven't seen it in China but I did see / smell / taste something very similar behind the Iron Curtain in its final years. It can reduce visibility to just a few city blocks! Teamyakima and I have been talking about theatrical lighting films. A warm white led strip with a film, and slightly too little lighting should give about the right feel (subject to experiment) of sticky gloom... But the first priority is to work on the pelmet... Luke Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEAMYAKIMA Posted March 12, 2021 Author Share Posted March 12, 2021 On 23/02/2021 at 13:47, Nearholmer said: This is all about creating pleasant lighting, but TY may actually be aiming to create unpleasant lighting, probably on the red, rather than the blue, side of the scale, to get the desired atmosphere. You have been very thought provoking and knowledgeable on this highly technical subject and I value your opinion very highly. I see that there are two lectures/demos this weekend on the subject of lighting at the virtual exhibition. Will you be watching? Your opinion of the views out forward will be very interesting as you are aware of my issues/concerns. Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wombatofludham Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 I've used LED colour changing spotlights bought from Tatbay on "Wednesford" in order to create different ambient lighting conditions, and was surprised to find that for me, the best setting to simulate a gloomy day was a teal/turquoise colour at about half setting (you can dial back the level of lighting as well). For an exhibition the LED strip which can be set to different colours would be ideal and not too difficult to hide behind a pelmet. You should be able to find a suitable combination of colour and intensity which may not be what you first thought. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 4 hours ago, TEAMYAKIMA said: Will you be watching? Thank you for the kind words. Unlikely that I will be able to spare much time to look at the exhibition, but if I can get to see the lighting discussion, I will. Have now rediscovered the colour/intensity variable LED strip that I bought ages ago, and am under instruction to fit it as a supplementary fitting in the kitchen/diner, in a spot near the patio doors that isn't well-lit by the main fitting, so I will probably have a crack at that next week, which will give lots of opportunity to experiment with model railway applications in mind, and to compare with external ambient lighting. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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