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Hi all,

 

I've been researching the Working Timetable for Cheltenham Malvern Road 1948 and there are a number of trains reversing in their journeys and I've got a few questions. 

 

1) Autotrains St James to Honeybourne and vice-versa usually reverse in the bay but some reverse at Malvern Road East Jn - would the driver change ends on the ballast or would they propel to/from St James?

 

2) Class B passenger St James to Honeybourne and vice-versa - would that be able to run round in 4 minutes available? Would that be a tank engine or tender? Any suggestion on class?

 

3) One Goods train reverses at Malvern Road and St James then continues west - I assume it runs round. Would it have 2 toads? Again tender / tank / any idea of class?

 

Thanks in advance

 

Will

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1) Driver changes ends on the ballast, and head and tail lamps are swapped by guard and fireman.  If loco is propelling, it displays tail lamp on bufferbeam bracket.  If by propelling you mean the loco propelling the auto trailer(s) with the driver on the loco footplate as opposed to driving the train from the leading auto cab, this was not allowed (I'm not saying it never happened...).  If the reversed part of the movement is performed with the loco leading and th driver in the trailer cab, the fireman, who is a passed man on an auto service and who has to have signed  the road, may possibly drive the loco the short distance on his own; perhaps Stationmaster Mike can illuminate us on this point.  The train would be formed with the loco and trailer in a specific orientation with this in mind; propelling in auto mode to the reversal point and then hauling the final part of the journey would make most sense.

 

2) Yes, 4 minutes is sufficient for running around so long as you do not have to propel the stock at any point.  Loco uncouples, runs around while guard changes tail lamp, sets back on to stock, shunter couples up, fireman repositions head lamp on loco, and driver/guard perform brake continuity test, driver whistles for road.  If the stock has to be propelled into postition before the run around movement takes place, all passengers must have left the train or be aboard it, and if the stock has to be propelled back along the platform when the movement is completed, a brake continuity test must be performed if there are passengers aboard before it takes place.  Common exhibition operator mistake; loco backs on to stock and continues, propelling it to the required position.  NO!  Loco must couple up and blow brakes off before it can move the stock.

 

Tender or tank loco possible but tank more likely for a local working of this sort.  Possible alternative to running around; another loco couples to train and hauls it away, leaving the original loco free to take up other work.  Tail lamp must still be moved to other end and brake continuity test performed, about 3 minutes.

 

3) Probably one Toad, that is shunted to the other end of the train as part of the running around procedure.  Alternatives; if it has arrived from somewhere local and has only covered a short distance, or only has a short distance left to travel, local instructions in the Sectional Appendix may in some circumstances allow it to perform that part of the journey propelled with the brake van leading, or hauled with the brake van now between the loco and the train.  Common practice to hang bucket or place sack or bag over rear drawhook to show train complete on arrival.

 

Class of loco dependent on what is booked for this working, which in turn is dependent on the load, timings, and distance that the job entails; tank if local tender if it has come from or is going to any great distance, in the same way as loco hauled passenger service.  You would need to know what classes were rostered to those particular jobs.

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Thanks for that really informative reply Johnster. 

 

The reversal part is only Malvern Road to st James - about a mile ish. If the autocoach is starting at at James with the loco at the front, the driver could be in the autocoach cab ready and the fireman drives the 1st mile?  I can't understand why it doesn't just continue to Malvern Road to reverse - less than 200m further.

 

How do you find out what is rostered on a service?

 

Thanks 

 

Will

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16 hours ago, WillCav said:

Thanks for that really informative reply Johnster. 

 

The reversal part is only Malvern Road to st James - about a mile ish. If the autocoach is starting at at James with the loco at the front, the driver could be in the autocoach cab ready and the fireman drives the 1st mile?  I can't understand why it doesn't just continue to Malvern Road to reverse - less than 200m further.

 

How do you find out what is rostered on a service?

 

Thanks 

 

Will

I suspect - as was common in many places - the the Fireman might not  be a Passed Man.  It really depends on who was available and there was definitely no general ruling that I have ever found that a Passed Fireman had to be used on auto trains although obviously he did need to be sufficiently experienced (although even that was sometimes ignored if needs prevailed).   I suspect too that many a Passed Fireman would be more than a little hacked off to lose a potential driving turn - complete with the extra pay and a step towards a permanent higher rate of pay - to instead spend a shift on an auto engine. In any case the Driver was responsible at the start of the working day for ensuring that the Fireman understood the working of the various controls such as the reverser, vacuum brake and lubricator etc.

 

I also suspect that possibly whatever was meant to happen with the reversal at Cheltenham the reality might have been (except when officialdom was about) that the Driver stayed in the leading end as it would be after revesal).   But what we also need to think about is the very short distance between where a train would stop to reverse at Malvern Road East Jcn and the bay at Malvern Road station because effectively there was only the one signal, and not much else between the two locations so what it does need is a check on the times of the two different moves to ascertain what 'reverse at Malvern Road East Jcn' actually meant.  A bit of digging into the STTs seems to show why the two auto trains from St James reversed at Malvern Road East Jcn  because although the signal box at Malvern Road West was open the station appears not to be as other trains didn't call there at around those time s of day, particularly when. the Auto 'paper train' was about in the morning.  Closer examination of the times will show one way or the other where the train probably really reversed but the 2 minutes at the junction would be more than adequate for the Driver to change ends if the job was being done properly.  Access to the trailer working notice and possibly the engine working as well would be useful although if the engine came from shed it would have more than likely have been at the Malvern Road end.

 

Where a run round is involved it would have effectively either have to be at Malvern Road station (although it could be done nearer to the junction as it involves using exactly the same crossovers in both cases).  4 minutes would be adequate provided the job was done very smartly because there was quite a distance between the two crossovers that had to be used.  Using a turnover engine would definitely have been quicker but would still appear in the STT as a train changing direction.  In the is case the engine diagrams are the only thing which would answer any doubt in that respect.

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Thanks Stationmaster,

 

Lots of useful info - I don't think the reversal troubles the West signaller if done in the bay?  I didn't think of the station being closed - that seems like a likely reason.

 

Seeing as my scenic break is going to be the Malvern road bridge, we might only see the nose of a 14xx during that move!

 

Are engine diagrams available anywhere for me to research further?  There seems to be a only a few light engine moves shown in the STT - I'll need to send a few off shed to St James in the morning and back in the evening.

 

Will

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2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

I suspect - as was common in many places - the the Fireman might not  be a Passed Man.  It really depends on who was available and there was definitely no general ruling that I have ever found that a Passed Fireman had to be used on auto trains although obviously he did need to be sufficiently experienced

I agree that there was often a blurring of the distinction between 'passed' and 'sufficiently experienced' firemen and that passed men might not always be available, especially in the post-war era of staffing problems.  But the bottom link for passed men at a largish shed would consist of a fair bit of auto work (which, as you say, the passed men didn't particularly want, but that's life)

 

.  Seniority, dead men's shoes, was all, and men who wanted more driving turns than the bottom link offered had to wait until they were accepted into the next link up; many would have become drivers long before this but be waiting for driving jobs to become available.  The way to higher earnings in this situation is overtime, and this was impacted over time as traffic reduced and freight workings caped. 

 

When the passed firemens' bottom link auto turns could not be covered from men within that link, which was not unknown because the bottom links were rarely fully manned, the roster clerk would have recourse to giving other passed men the overtime, bearing in mind that they must have a 12 hour rest period between signing off duty and signing on for their next one, or to using junior men who may or may not have been passed firemen but were considered competent by the roster clerk and the driver.  The driver is absolutely in charge of and responsible for the loco at all times, even if he spends little actual time aboard it on some auto duties, and he can and will refuse to take a fireman he thinks is incompetent out on his locomotive..

 

2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

 

I also suspect that possibly whatever was meant to happen with the reversal at Cheltenham the reality might have been (except when officialdom was about) that the Driver stayed in the leading end as it would be after revesal).

 

Undoubtedly.  I remember a Canton driver in the 70s claiming to be unaware that there ever was a driving cab he could have used on auto work on the Riverside branch to Clarence Road, and that he always drove from the loco, propelling down the branch.  He may have been having me on of course, but he was a bloke who generally didn't do that sort of thing.  Many things happened on a daily (and especially nightly) basis that were not neccessarily strictly in accordance with what was supposed to happen, though everybody usually knew how to do the job properly if an inspector was in the vicinity, and of course the inspectors knew fully well what the normal methods of working were, having done them themselves for years before being promoted to inspector!  My view on this as far as modelling is concerned is that it is covered by Rule 1, and I regard Rule 1 as something that comes with great responsibility as does all great power, not as a carte blanche! 

 

It must not IMHO be used to justify operation that couldn't possibly have been tolerated, but can be used to justify operation that shouldn't have been and, officially, wasn't, but was unofficially the normal and accepted method of doing the job.  Everybody has to be in on the game, of course, or the thing gets reported and officialdom have to pretend it's the first they've heard of it, and have to do something about it.  The culture, and it wouldn't pass muster these days, was that if it wasn't reported and nothing bad resulted, it never happened, and everyone got on with their lives.  If there was a problem from it, the doodoo hit the fan and everybody scurried to cover themselves.  So there was considerable motivation to not do anything that might result in a problem of that sort.

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One of my past Supervisors had started on the footplate and his very first firing job was on an auto train (the Marlow Donkey) and it was also the first time he'd been on an auto engine when it was workinga. train.  He managed perfectly well and not difficult as the Marlow branch is as near flat as makes no difference.

 

Firemen tended to be passed for driving accordng to their seniority so it varied a bo it around depots.  At some all the senior firemen were on very good money on things like doub;e home turns so if they came off it was onto something like a pilot turn so they culd end up losing money.  But each turn the worked driving was a step towards the next increase in their rate of pay so some lapped it up.  Others were happier carrying on firing with ther regular Driver while there were more than a few who were overjoyed to get away from their regular Driver ;)

 

1 hour ago, WillCav said:

Thanks Stationmaster,

 

Lots of useful info - I don't think the reversal troubles the West signaller if done in the bay?  I didn't think of the station being closed - that seems like a likely reason.

 

Seeing as my scenic break is going to be the Malvern road bridge, we might only see the nose of a 14xx during that move!

 

Are engine diagrams available anywhere for me to research further?  There seems to be a only a few light engine moves shown in the STT - I'll need to send a few off shed to St James in the morning and back in the evening.

 

Will

Diagrams are not easy thinsg to come across  - especially that far back.  Some might have made it to Kew.and some later stuff probably fetched up at Westbourne Terrace but most of what went there was eventually dumped apart from one ISO container full that the Archivist managed to save privately  (he bought a container to store all he could manage to save when Westbournre Terrace was closed and he was instructed to dump everything).  Some stuff might have survived in private hands but I've never seen any Westerndiagrams come up in auctions.

 

One way might be to try advertising in local 'papers in the Cheltenham area although any survivors who were on the footplate at Malvern Road in 1948 will now be around 90 or older.  However things would have changed relatively slowly into the early 1950s so there'll be may be some younger chaps - only in their 80s - around.

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19 hours ago, mike morley said:

 

Why not hang a lamp on the hook?

Or did a lamp on a coupling hook have a different meaning?

That was effectively the standard Instruction if there was no lamp bracket on the rear vehicle where working without a brake van at the rear of a freight vehicles was authorised.  Rules 120(a) & 153(b) in the 1950 Rule Book/ Section H, Clause 6.1 of the 1972 Rule Book applied.   And only permitted to be done where authorised in Table H1 of the Sectional Appendix.  Additionally post 1972 Table H1 in the Sectional Appendix also specified that a tail signal (i.e.  a tail lamp) had to be carried on the last vehicle.

Edited by The Stationmaster
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On 09/03/2021 at 12:02, Tim Hall said:

I was surprised to see this on the Mid Hants in May 19, for no obvious reason.

IMG_7355.JPG

Several possible reasons -

1. if you're puttng the lamp on from ground level it's an awful long way uo to reach the lamp brackets or

2. There might be a good reason for putting it there to remind a Shunter of something or

3. It might be a WR lamp (although that is unlikely)

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On 24/02/2021 at 17:48, The Stationmaster said:

 

Diagrams are not easy thinsg to come across  - especially that far back.  Some might have made it to Kew.and some later stuff probably fetched up at Westbourne Terrace but most of what went there was eventually dumped apart from one ISO container full that the Archivist managed to save privately  (he bought a container to store all he could manage to save when Westbournre Terrace was closed and he was instructed to dump everything).  Some stuff might have survived in private hands but I've never seen any Westerndiagrams come up in auctions.

 

 

I did some work at 30 Porchester Road in the '80s but don't recollect seeing anything like that. Mike Jolly and Colin Waite were trying to catalogue the drawings for the BGS, David Hyde was there and we found the three old Freighters' Registers and sundry other bits, albums of Rating Plans and several boxes of cartage agreements were put aside for Kew or Swindon/Chippenham, someone else was doing extensive work on personnel records, but most of the rest was just a giant haystack of miscellaneous correspondence that may or may not have had the occasional needle. I reckon Robin Linsley saved all the best bits.

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23 hours ago, wagonman said:

 

I did some work at 30 Porchester Road in the '80s but don't recollect seeing anything like that. Mike Jolly and Colin Waite were trying to catalogue the drawings for the BGS, David Hyde was there and we found the three old Freighters' Registers and sundry other bits, albums of Rating Plans and several boxes of cartage agreements were put aside for Kew or Swindon/Chippenham, someone else was doing extensive work on personnel records, but most of the rest was just a giant haystack of miscellaneous correspondence that may or may not have had the occasional needle. I reckon Robin Linsley saved all the best bits.

Ian collected a whole load of stuff when the 'archive' was officially closed and he had been in charge of sorting for a several years by then but I don't know exactly what he managed to save.

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On 23/02/2021 at 19:47, WillCav said:

Thanks for that really informative reply Johnster. 

 

The reversal part is only Malvern Road to st James - about a mile ish. If the autocoach is starting at at James with the loco at the front, the driver could be in the autocoach cab ready and the fireman drives the 1st mile?  I can't understand why it doesn't just continue to Malvern Road to reverse - less than 200m further.

 

How do you find out what is rostered on a service?

 

Thanks 

 

Will

If Malvern Road station had closed and was locked up for the night it would have been a bit of a nuisance for anyone alighting from a train which stopped and reversed there.   They wouldn't have been able to get off the station.  More a problem in Summer I guess when it was light to 10pm and from 4am.

In Practice with an Autocoach it should have been simple for the guard to inform passengers not to alight, but equally enginemen habitually climbed onto Locos from ballast level and retired at 65 so changing ends and changing lamps/ red/clear shades in the lamps wouldn't have been onerous.  

Malvern Road was very unusual, a 1900s station on an1840s railway with one Island platform, the North end of the southbound(?) platform was a short Bay with the platform then widening to form a face for the through line.   Access was over a footbridge.  I can see the driver commencing the trip in the coach at the rear of the train and letting the fireman drive to Malvern Road,  but the other way? He would hardly sit in the auto coach cab having a snooze all the way from Honeybourne to Malvern Road, even changing ends at Racecourse is stretching it a bit. The Auto coaches seem to have had  a lamp on the centre bracket immediately below the centre window, which I am sure drops down so changing the shade would have been very quick and easy, moving the loco lamp from by the chimney to the buffer beam and flipping the shade more so from ballast level.  Changing that lamp ss the only real advantage I can see in stopping in the platform

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The end windows of the bowended auto trailers were fixed and did not open, nor did the single windows of the ‘Cyclops’ compartment A43s, so you had to go outside to change the lamps.  I’m not sure of the Clifton Downs type of end windows, but these were probably fixed lights as well. 

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Just checked in my 'Lewis'; there were no GW auto trailers with end droplight windows, though the 'Cyclops' type had windscreen wipers.  It looks like a natural thing to provide given the proximity of the lamp bracket, and practice with the toads, but possibly the fixed lights were preferred because droplights would cause excessive draughts in the cab when propelling at speed.

 

I have no idea how the Cyclops windscreen wipers worked, and they may well have been hand operated, but it is possible that they were vacuum powered or had car type electric motors.  I also have no idea why the Cyclops were so favoured while the bow end and Clifton Downs type were not.  I don't have Vol 2 Lewis, which may comment on this.

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11 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

 

I have no idea how the Cyclops windscreen wipers worked, and they may well have been hand operated, but it is possible that they were vacuum powered or had car type electric motors.  

I remember visiting a club layout in the Lucas electrical factory.

They said of their point motors "Rolls Royce are still waiting for these window winding motors"!

This was long before slow motion point operation became fashionable - or for that matter power operated car windows.

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