Best all round DC controller

[31466]

Hi everyone, been looking through these forums for a while but this is my first post. I have quite a few different questions so will write it out best I can!

 

I have a fairly large layout with 4 different tracks and would like to know thoughts on the best controller. I have had layouts for over 20 years so have used a fair few but I have concerns about my current setup.

 

Over that 20 year period I have had a Gaugemaster series DF controller. This has been faultless the whole time and it still powers 2 of the tracks. However I felt that it wasn't the most powerful controller. Many older models, Wrenn, Triang and some Lima etc were quite sluggish and having trialled a different controller I realised they had more speed in them. I was given an old Hornby 900 power control controller and this was very powerful and many models seemed much better. The only drawback was it is very bulky to control one track and it had a bit of a fault with the dial. I then decided to get a Hornby HM2000 controller. It seemed OK but the one I bought wasn't perfect and it had some strange characteristics so I bought another one brand new. It has the same curiosities! Having read other topics it seems that is how they operate with a "dead zone" for much of the dial and then the last little bit, dots 13 to 14 the models speed up like mad! I can live with that but I have had multiple loco failures using the controller and I am worried the controller has caused them. The failures are as follows:

 

Hornby Terrier - Smoke coming from motor, burnt out, dead

Hornby County - Smoke coming from motor, took apart and back together and runs OK, no sign of damage

Dapol Western - Loco stopped, bit of smoke, totally dead including lights

Hornby J15 - Loco stopped, completely dead

Hornby class 71 - Lights suddenly went out, works fine but no lights

 

They all seem fairly similar faults and could be caused by too much power going to the motor? I believe the Terrier, County and 71 all failed when the controller was on full power.

 

The HM2000 shows the voltage to track being 0-17V, this seems very high so if 17V is going to the track when on full power are failures pretty likely? Obviously I could regulate the power and stay off full but I would rather have a controller which I can use properly without worrying. I find it hard to believe that a current Hornby controller should throw out too much power for a current Hornby model.

My Gaugemaster DF shows 0-12V but also max 9.6VA to each track. I am not an expert with electrics but does that mean it doesn't deliver 12V to the track? I have looked at a Model Q 4 track controller and that shows max 12VA to each track so sounds better.

 

So I am looking at what my options are. I want a controller that isn't going to damage any more models but is also powerful enough so older models run at a decent speed. I am a big fan of the Gaugemaster controller, the dial changes the speed throughout the range unlike the HM2000 where most of the turn makes no difference. The model Q or 2 track equivalent is what I'm thinking, is this more powerful than my current series DF one? This also adds the question of feedback controllers (which I believe is what the series DF is). I don't know what difference they make but don't really want a controller that isn't suitable for certain models. My series DF has never damaged any models.

 

Just one last point. I have a DJ models class 71. On the Gaugemaster DF it is pretty slow. On the HM2000 it is even slower. Bizarrely I have a Hornby R965 small controller and it is pretty nippy on there! I have found the R965 is pretty powerful but it lacked the finesse I wanted for a main controller but the power it provides is great. I don't know though if they could damage models too. I have a number so could use those but just interested to hear any views.

 

I have all sorts of models from Hornby Dublo, Wrenn, Triang, Lima, Mainline, Dapol, Bachmann, Hornby etc and continue to buy the current models so some very different mechanisms and technology but it has all been newer models on newer controllers that have been the problem.

 

Sorry for the long message. There are loads of questions in there but if you have any views on just one I would be interested to hear.

 

Many thanks

 

Steven.   

[CourthsVeil]

Hi Steven,

there is no thing one might call "THE best controller".

 

Instead there are different controllers well suited for different tasks. Especially when one uses "all sorts of models from... etc."

 

Regards

Armin

[fezza]

Never had a problem with my Gaugemasters in 30 years. Hornby, Bachmann and Roco units have all failed in that time. 

[Dungrange]

On 24/02/2021 at 23:26, 31466 said:

The HM2000 shows the voltage to track being 0-17V, this seems very high so if 17V is going to the track when on full power are failures pretty likely? Obviously I could regulate the power and stay off full but I would rather have a controller which I can use properly without worrying. I find it hard to believe that a current Hornby controller should throw out too much power for a current Hornby model.

 

I'm not particularly familiar with this controller, but I would have expected the output voltage to be about 12 Volts.  Have you tried measuring the potential difference across the rails using a multi-meter?  Does it show around 12V DC when the controller is turned up?  The HM2000 manual doesn't make any reference to 17 Volts - the outputs are just described as controlled DC.

 

https://www.islandrailways.co.uk/pdf/R8012-HM2000-Controller-Multilingual.pdf

 

On 24/02/2021 at 23:26, 31466 said:

My Gaugemaster DF shows 0-12V but also max 9.6VA to each track. I am not an expert with electrics but does that mean it doesn't deliver 12V to the track? I have looked at a Model Q 4 track controller and that shows max 12VA to each track so sounds better.

 

Power is measured in Watts, which is the product of the potential difference across the rails (measured in Volts) and the current flowing through the motor (measured in Amps).  Therefore the power output of a controller can be expressed as either W (Watts) or VA (Volt Amps).

 

A 12V power supply rated at 12VA means that it will deliver a current of 1 Amp at 12 Volts.

 

A 12V power supply rated at 9.6VA means that it will deliver just  0.8 Amps (or 800 milliamps) at 12 Volts (ie 9.6 VA / 12 V = 0.8 A)

 

Most motors will draw less than 0.5 Amps, so either should be fine for most models.  However, older motors do tend to draw more current than their more modern counterparts.  That said, I note that the Hornby HM2000 refers to being able to supply up to 550 mA (ie 0.55 Amps) from each of the two controlled DC outputs.

 

What I'm not sure when you are referring to the power output from the Gaugemaster models is whether that is the power output per track or total. 

 

The model railway club that I am a member of use Gaugemaster controllers for all of our DC layouts - the handheld variants.  These have given many years of service, although some have had to be replaced.

Edited February 28, 2021 by Dungrange

[JeremyC]

Regarding the 17V output is this being measured or is it from documentation? If measured is it with a loco running or open circuit (ie controller full on with no loco or other load present)? Getting a higher voltage on an open circuit is quite normal, when a load (a loco in this case) is drawing power the maximum voltage will be lower.

Edited February 28, 2021 by JeremyC

[AndyID]

1 hour ago, JeremyC said:

Regarding the 17V output is this being measured or is it from documentation? If measured is it with a loco running or open circuit (ie controller full on with no loco or other load present)? Getting a higher voltage on an open circuit is quite normal, when a load (a loco in this case) is drawing power the maximum voltage will be lower.

 

That could be true but in the year 2021 there is no excuse for it.

[WIMorrison]

Possible true, but most controllers weren’t designed in 2021 - many won’t even have been designed this century.

[AndyID]

1 hour ago, WIMorrison said:

Possible true, but most controllers weren’t designed in 2021 - many won’t even have been designed this century.

 

Yes, but the HM2000 is fairly new. It's possible the OP measured its "uncontrolled" DC output. It could be 17 volts DC.

[Paddy]

Hi Steven, @31466

 

I would suggest you look at Gaugemaster or Morley (both are excellent).  I personally use Morley and they now do a Crawler version which provides similar slow speed running to Gaugemaster.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Kind regards 

 

Paddy

 

Edited February 28, 2021 by Paddy

[31466]

Thanks everyone for your replies. The 17V reference is from the sticker on the bottom of the controller. Says track 1 and 2 17V.

I will use a multi meter tomorrow to see what readings come up from the track at various controller settings as well as work through the other suggestions.

[Pete the Elaner]

8 hours ago, fezza said:

Never had a problem with my Gaugemasters in 30 years. Hornby, Bachmann and Roco units have all failed in that time. 

 

I know people who have had failures but they provide a lifetime guarantee which they honour without any fuss.

They even paid return postage on my father's model Q (4 track controller) which is quite a heavy box.

[The Johnster]

Another vote for Gaugemaster; mine copes with current production Bachmann and Hornby motors, including the coreless in my new 94xx, and has in the past coped well with Lima pancake and Airfix open frame motors.  There has been little in the way of development in the field of DC controllers for the last 40 years, but the motors have changed  somewhat in that time.  I have pre-ordered a HM 6000 NFC Smartphone controller from Hornby; this is a box wired to the track which is probably not radically different from anything else available in the last 5 decades, but is controlled via an app on your smartphone using Bluetooth connection, so offers untethered walkabout capability along with some other useful features.  I will report on this when it shows up; it has been delayed since last summer but has picked up some features in the meantime; it seems that the product is not yet fully developed. 

[31466]

I have done some testing today. I have a multi meter so measured the voltage at the rail on full power with no train running and also with one running. The results are:

 

Gaugemaster series DF

Not running - 12V

Running - 10V 

 

HM2000

Not running - 10V

Running - 12V

 

Hornby R965

Not running - 23V

Running - 15V

 

The Gaugemaster seems to operate the most normally I would say.

The HM2000 is unusual that the voltage was higher with a train running than without! Maybe feedback related.

As for the R965, those figures seem risky to me! This would explain models being so much faster using this but my Dapol 122 sounded like it was about to explode on full power! Amazed how much power was going to the track and I think if used regularly this would cause many failures? It is only a back up controller on a siding so think it will stay there.

 

The overall view seems to be that Gaugemaster are the best so I will swap the 2 main circuits from the HM2000 to the series DF as it is a much nicer controller to use. It doesn't explain the failures I have had particularly although the power at track with a train running was higher. I think if that seems underpowered I will consider a Gaugemaster model D which as mentioned above provides more amps to the track at the same voltage.

[Ray Von]

 

I love my Fleischman!!!!

 

 

Seriously, I do.  I have tried and sold three Gaugemaster controllers, I just don't like the incessant "CLICK" - forward  "CLICK"  - stop "CLICK" - reverse "OOPS" "CLICK" "CLICK" - I meant forwards again.  

[Andrew1974]

I was given my oldest gauge master as a present for my 16th birthday over 30 years ago and it is still going strong, unlike the Hornby 8f that I got at the same time that has long gone to the fiddle yard in the sky.

[PatB]

How much does the maximum output of a controller actually matter? How often do you run a train flat out? I'd suggest, for most, that the answer would be very rarely, if only because most do not have the space to model stretches of main line with IC125s running at 125 mph, or loco hauled expresses exceeding the ton.

 

Most of the time, most of us will be running trains at what we feel to be prototypical speeds, and doing so by twiddling the knob until the train seems to be running at something that looks about right, whether judged by eyeball or by more scientific methods. In a majority of cases I'd expect this approach to leave a lot of spare twiddle room between the required setting and the maximum setting.

 

In short, so what if the maximum output is over 12V? If you actually use it, most locos will look silly or become airborne long before any electrical damage is done. Electric motors are surprisingly robust beasties and most will happily survive occasional overvoltage.

[Ighten]

Another Vote for Gaugemaster - never had a burnt out engine and the lifetime gurantee is noce though I have never had a fault - quite happy with a W walkaround which I dont think has ever been turned past 30 and is generally between 15 and 20...

 

Only others I had in the past was Hornbys that came with the kit (useless unless you only wanted high speed running then just died)  and later a couple of H&M superb but too bulky for my needs now..

 

Havent I read the HM2000 does have feedback (which seems a bit bizarre with the market shifting towards coreless)

[AndyID]

36 minutes ago, Ighten said:

 

Havent I read the HM2000 does have feedback (which seems a bit bizarre with the market shifting towards coreless)

 

It's probably unlikely but it could use a form of feedback that's fully compatible with coreless motors by outputting smooth DC. As the load on a motor increases the current increases which increases the voltage drop across the motor's internal resistance. Consequently the motor slows down.

 

DC feedback senses the current and increases the output voltage to compensate for some of the voltage lost to the internal resistance.

[Barclay]

Has anyone tried one of those cheap DC motor controllers that you can get on ebay?

 

I've recently bought one of the more expensive versions (£6 or £7) and initial tests were encouraging enough for me to start fitting it into a box with a reversing switch etc. for more prolonged testing. The reason for getting the pricier version is that you can limit the output to prevent over-supply (it gives slightly more than it gets, so 14 volts from my H&M Powermaster becomes about 17 volts at output, which is enough to worry me). Limiting the output to 75% has resolved this. You can also adjust the Pulse Width Modulation frequency, which might make it more suitable for different types of motor. I will report back after fuller testing but it will do well to best the Pentroller !

 

Another vote for Gaugemaster though - I recently sent them back my truly ancient model HH which had developed a fault, and they replaced the Pot. & returned it to me without a quibble.

 

[d00m]

I bought a load of the really cheap ones from china- mainly for dimming leds, but actually they do work quite well on x04, ringfield and tenshodo motors. You need to make sure that they are rated from 0 volts - 35 volts. I had a couple in the batch rated 4.5 volts to 40 volts which were useless for obvious reasons. I might be tempted to replace the pot for a better quality one but at £2 for each unit, it's probably not worth it.

Edited March 24, 2021 by d00m

[Barclay]

The DIY controller works very well. It has a soft start facility and is very pleasant to use, with the motors running nice and quietly. At about £6 + a tenner's worth of bits to make it user-friendly (box, DPDT reversing switch, cable and grommet) it's well worth while getting one to have a play with - all you need is a 12V DC input.

 

[ejstubbs]

On 24/03/2021 at 23:06, d00m said:

You need to make sure that they are rated from 0 volts - 35 volts. I had a couple in the batch rated 4.5 volts to 40 volts which were useless for obvious reasons.

 

I can't find any on the 'bay rated from 0V.  Even the ZK-MG one that Barclay refers to seems to be rated 5-30V.  Is the non-zero minimum voltage a problem because it hampers low speed control?

[WIMorrison]

The electronics need power to operate and with 0v nothing works 

[DLT]

Another vote for Gaugemaster, used them for years with various types of motors.  My 0-gauge Group uses them as well.  Avoid the feedback types though.

Recommend the full-sweep knob type, with reversing switch.  Finer control than with centre-off, and none of the accidental reversing with stiff click-stop.

This subject has been discussed at length previously, have you done a Forum Search?

Cheers, Dave.

Edited April 3, 2021 by DLT

[H2O]

23 hours ago, WIMorrison said:

The electronics need power to operate and with 0v nothing works 

 

23 hours ago, WIMorrison said:

The electronics need power to operate and with 0v nothing works 

I agree that the input range needs to be above a certain minimum voltage for anything to work but I think the reference was to the controllable range of effective output voltage? If the effective minimum output voltage is 5V that wouldn't be very useful.