Train Ferry Project in 1:76 ... previously ... Two (or more) Heads Are Better Than One ... or ... Too late! That ship has sailed!

[SteveyDee68]

QUESTION:

 

Can anybody confirm whether the ferries took four coaches (as shown in various longitudinal sections) or three coaches on each track (as reported in Night Ferry)? In various books and articles, there are references made to carrying twelve coaches - across four tracks that would equate three coaches per track. It is those pesky illustrations showing four coaches that are puzzling me!

 

Any information gratefully accepted!

 

[The Stationmaster]

Alas I can't tell you much at all about the Night Ferry - I dd venture out into the corridor when being loaded at Dover but very little could be seen.  And at the French end I saw nothing despite being woken by some typically French shunting of the part of the train I was in.  (I travelled on that one as an ordinary passenger - not a work/official trip),

 

Incidentally i have some photos of the 'preserved' (after a fashion) train ferry berth at Harwich which give an indication - but no detail - of how the link span there was dealt with.  In a model you could of course simplify things considerably by assuming that the state of the tide puts everything more or less on the level right through from solid ground to the ferry's deck.

[Grovenor]

Looking at the plans its clear that you can only get 4 coaches onto the centre tracks, it looks like it would be a squeeze to get 3 on the outer tracks

[SteveyDee68]

5 hours ago, Grovenor said:

Looking at the plans its clear that you can only get 4 coaches onto the centre tracks, it looks like it would be a squeeze to get 3 on the outer tracks

 

Thanks for getting back to me on this; reading the Model Rail article "Night Train to Paris" (by our very own Chris Leigh) in Issue No 72 October 2004, we are told, "Inside the ferry were four sidings each capable of taking four coaches". The coloured illustration for the article is clearly based upon the Hampton Ferry diagram as in Image 2 in my earlier post, as it replicates the four carriages inside the ship in the longitudinal cut away.

 

Looking at that plan, I've realised that the four coaches illustrated must be on the central tracks! The deck plans all line up with the cut-away, and so it is clear to see that the coach nearest the bows would have over-run the buffers on the outer sidings, so must be on the central tracks! Likewise, the coach closest to the stern in the drawing is parked across the points (and I'm sure that is equally as frowned upon on board a ship!)

 

Published sources all say the 1934 ferries could carry 12 coaches - it is definitely confusing!

 

Given that my model will only have two tracks 'per journey' (rather than the four tracks of the prototypes) I shall have to limit my own 'Night Ferry' to perhaps six Type F coaches plus two fougon vans (one less than the mid-50s formation listed in the article) : having said that, once 'mocked up' at actual size I may discover I can squeeze that 7th sleeper coach on board!

 

HOURS OF FUN!

[Dungrange]

From the initial description, I actually thought you'd want something along the lines of the Neleveator (https://www.nelevation.com/).  However looking at the website, the main issue is that the trains are loaded centrally, which means that half of the height of the unit is above the rail deck, which means that it wouldn't fit in the ship (or at least the standard 00 version, which takes 12 trains wouldn't.  I'm sure that the same principles could be used to design a less tall version, but I suspect that a horizontal deck as your proposing is possibly the best way forward.

[The Stationmaster]

13 hours ago, SteveyDee68 said:

 

Thanks for getting back to me on this; reading the Model Rail article "Night Train to Paris" (by our very own Chris Leigh) in Issue No 72 October 2004, we are told, "Inside the ferry were four sidings each capable of taking four coaches". The coloured illustration for the article is clearly based upon the Hampton Ferry diagram as in Image 2 in my earlier post, as it replicates the four carriages inside the ship in the longitudinal cut away.

 

Looking at that plan, I've realised that the four coaches illustrated must be on the central tracks! The deck plans all line up with the cut-away, and so it is clear to see that the coach nearest the bows would have over-run the buffers on the outer sidings, so must be on the central tracks! Likewise, the coach closest to the stern in the drawing is parked across the points (and I'm sure that is equally as frowned upon on board a ship!)

 

Published sources all say the 1934 ferries could carry 12 coaches - it is definitely confusing!

 

Given that my model will only have two tracks 'per journey' (rather than the four tracks of the prototypes) I shall have to limit my own 'Night Ferry' to perhaps six Type F coaches plus two fougon vans (one less than the mid-50s formation listed in the article) : having said that, once 'mocked up' at actual size I may discover I can squeeze that 7th sleeper coach on board!

 

HOURS OF FUN!

Twelve sounds logical when you think about it.  Two on each of the shorter outer roads (total 4 so far) then four on each of hth two central roads (which adds another 8 so you get a total of twelve).  As all the vehicles were fully secured with chains etc they were not going to move - which is just as well as they might have gone straight through one end or other of the ferry deck or finished up with vehicles damaged by collision if the sea was a bit too much on the choppy side.

[SteveyDee68]

14 hours ago, Dungrange said:

From the initial description, I actually thought you'd want something along the lines of the Neleveator (https://www.nelevation.com/).  However looking at the website, the main issue is that the trains are loaded centrally, which means that half of the height of the unit is above the rail deck, which means that it wouldn't fit in the ship (or at least the standard 00 version, which takes 12 trains wouldn't.  I'm sure that the same principles could be used to design a less tall version, but I suspect that a horizontal deck as your proposing is possibly the best way forward.

 

My original thoughts were about lowering the train deck below the baseboards to a low level 'fiddle yard'; but that would have meant "messing about offscene" (which I wanted to avoid if possible). The mechanical means to do that was/is beyond me, and the low level fiddle yard was a compromise so I didn't pursue.

 

I had also considered having the ferry at the rear of the layout with dockside warehouses hard alongside the edge of the dock, to allow stock shunted onto the ferry to actually exit it at the rear and into sidings behind those warehouses! My idea was that sight angles and some 'baffles' would disguise that fact. But, again, that solution means lots of backstage shenanigans - although possibly okay for an exhibition layout?

 

Before starting this thread my last thoughts were a double deck vertical traverser, which would require space above and below the train deck to work. Using later designs of ship such as the Vertigern might allow that, being much taller in profile. The lower traverser level lines up with the train deck - stock is loaded - the traverser lowers so that that stock is now below the train deck in the lower hull, whilst the upper traverser level lowers from within the ship's upper superstructure and allows a new set of stock to be shunted on/off. The fact that the Vortigern had a mezzanine deck level above the train deck for cars (as seen in the attached image) shows that this idea was not beyond a possibility. Again, however, the mechanics of the vertical movement simply eluded me, hence my throwing the question out to the hive mind!

 

I am working upon the idea of a four track traverser with two entry points, and although it is not an accurate replica of the actual train ferry track design it seems to me to be the simplest means to allow a scale ship to be modelled that allows a reasonable amount of stock to be carried and create the illusion of going somewhere without too much fuss.

 

(And a single track linkspan would be easier to shunt - none of that shunting in pairs nonsense!! )

 

HOURS OF FUN!

Edited March 1, 2021 by SteveyDee68
Added image of Vortigern profile

[SteveyDee68]

Revisiting the idea of a vertical traverser - looking again at the Vertigern profile reminded me why I thought that this was the solution...

 

If anyone can think of a way to simply mechanically raise/lower a double deck, 4' x 22" (approx) traverser vertically through approximately 75mm then I may end up with two workable solutions! A four track vertical traverser would certainly allow a lot more stock to be held! *

 

HOURS OF FUN!

 

* Thinking about it, a simple-to-build-and-move double-deck four-track vertical traverser might also prove an ideal fiddleyard solution to space starved modellers!

Edited March 1, 2021 by SteveyDee68
Missed the crucial word "vertical"

[SteveyDee68]

On 25/02/2021 at 12:24, DavidCBroad said:

The common or garden thing which lifts a foot or so smoothly and fairy swiftly is the car side window, so maybe a car window winder mechanism could be adapted. 

 

Quick glance back through the thread, and David already made the above suggestion. From what I remember of seeing the workings of suchlike in my Toyota Verso when the window "fell out", the middle of the bottom edge of the window was on top of an arm* and the only thing ensuring the window moved vertically upwards were guide channels around the edges of the window. One worry, though, is that every car electric window I have used always starts and finishes movement with a definite jolt! (Perhaps I haven't owned expensive enough cars to experience smooth window movement!)

 

On 25/02/2021 at 12:24, DavidCBroad said:

Or a foot operated lever lifting the deck past the fully raised position and then easing it back down onto a locking mechanism.

 

I have to admit that I read that and simply couldn't visualise how that would work. Then I slept on it a few times. And then I remembered the sustain pedal on a piano and how that works (it lifts the entire damping mechanism approximately half an inch off the piano strings). Where is the facepalm emoji?

 

To lift something 4' long evenly would require either a stiff structure to eliminate sag at the ends - for the train ferry I am envisaging a box section so that might automatically solve that issue. (Using it as a fiddleyard would need a greater lift distance, to allow room to access the lower deck for "fiddling" stock, unless that level was limited only to push-pull workings or DMU/EMU formations ... but then, I wasn't really setting out to solve that issue!). Perhaps a scissors lift type contraption might work by supporting both ends and lifting in the middle? 

 

HOURS OF FUN!

 

* I can't remember if this was a simple arm or a scissor lift type mechanism

 

Edited March 1, 2021 by SteveyDee68
Added image

[SteveyDee68]

Putting these here as an aide memoire and to get the little grey cells ticking over...

 

A wooden ironing board and an IKEA hack idea... food for thought!

 

 

[Chimer]

This has all been great fun, but I'm going to put my sensible head on for a moment or two ..... 

 

The basic train ferry idea adds a brilliant option to the Minories plan, especially if it introduces loco-hauled stock to what is otherwise an essentially EMU environment.  If the operating session starts with the unloading of the overnight ferry arrival, and ends with the loading of the next night's departure, you've got a perfectly logical and reasonably prototypical operation.  Personally, if I saw one set of coaches disappear into a ferry and a different set of coaches emerge 10 minutes later, my first thought might be "How did he do that?" but the second thought would be  "Why did he do that - that's just wrong!".  So I think you're at risk of over-complicating a great idea, with the additional risk that you may never do the great bit 'cos you can't work out how to do the extra (and perhaps not-so-great) bit. 

 

Next thing, somebody will be along reminding you about the 20 foot plus tidal range at Dover and suggesting you need to crank the ferry up and down the quayside to represent that little complication, and we'll all be offering bright ideas about how to fix flexitrack so the linkspan can flex vertically to allow this ........ ignore them, too!

 

Cheers, Chris

[jonhall]

 

 

Can I recomend https://www.abebooks.co.uk/book-search/title/train-ferries-of-western-europe/author/wallis/

 

Jon

[21C123]

At work we have one of these for vertical lifting. 
 

Mobile scissor table, a foot pump lifts and the handle releases the hydraulic piston. 

our vet has something similar for her workspace. 

 

hope that helps

 

Roger

 

[nick_bastable]

the real things used a mix of  hydraulic rams and pulley based wires

 

Nick

[SteveyDee68]

Well, Fate has played her hand...

 

Whilst at B&Q a short time ago (in urgent search of lightbulbs!!) I happened to pass the offcuts bin from the wood cutting service. Three pieces of wood, all almost perfectly sized for the traverser solution ... at 50p each! Well, you simply can't ignore a good nudge in the middle of the back from Lady Luck like that, can you?!

 

I would still like to see about getting parts laser cut - for lightness, accuracy and also maybe for insetting the track!

 

Thank you for all the continued feedback and ideas - I appreciate every post!

 

HOURS OF FUN (HAS JUST BEGUN) 

[Gibbo675]

Hi Steve,

 

For lifts and slides of a large traverser you might want to look at the following gubbins:

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/T8-Lead-Screw-Pitch-2mm-Lead-2mm-Stainless-Rod-Linear-Rail-Bar-Shaft-w-Brass-Nut/352300505751?hash=item5206bf1a97:g:Sn4AAOSwv5xbuFeJ

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/T8-Dual-Lead-Screw-Rod-OD8-Linear-Rail-Optical-Axis-With-Horizontal-Bearing-Set/183902987930?hash=item2ad178e69a:g:t0YAAOSw3dtdPu4D

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/100mm-T5x2-Lead-Screw-Nema-11-Stepper-Motor-Linear-Actuator-External-0-75A/393069611816?epid=2298243570&hash=item5b84c64b28:g:1fYAAOSwNTZf5aPT

 

 

My thoughts are that you could make a train deck that raises from under the baseboard upwards into a hollow ship that has a hole in its underside. When under the board level the train deck would then connect in its lowered position with a fiddle yard that could hold various sets of stock,

 

The ship could be positioned into dock and the train deck raised empty so that the ship could be loaded, the train deck is then lowered and the ship could be moved off to France. The stock can then be shunted and swapped or reversed for the return of the ship once in dock the train deck could be raised into the ship and the ship unloaded.

 

When the train deck is its lowered position its top surface would be the same finish as the water in the dock.

 

I hope that makes sense !

 

Gibbo.

 

[Ravenser]

1 hour ago, Gibbo675 said:

Hi Steve,

 

For lifts and slides of a large traverser you might want to look at the following gubbins:

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/T8-Lead-Screw-Pitch-2mm-Lead-2mm-Stainless-Rod-Linear-Rail-Bar-Shaft-w-Brass-Nut/352300505751?hash=item5206bf1a97:g:Sn4AAOSwv5xbuFeJ

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/T8-Dual-Lead-Screw-Rod-OD8-Linear-Rail-Optical-Axis-With-Horizontal-Bearing-Set/183902987930?hash=item2ad178e69a:g:t0YAAOSw3dtdPu4D

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/100mm-T5x2-Lead-Screw-Nema-11-Stepper-Motor-Linear-Actuator-External-0-75A/393069611816?epid=2298243570&hash=item5b84c64b28:g:1fYAAOSwNTZf5aPT

 

 

My thoughts are that you could make a train deck that raises from under the baseboard upwards into a hollow ship that has a hole in its underside. When under the board level the train deck would then connect in its lowered position with a fiddle yard that could hold various sets of stock,

 

The ship could be positioned into dock and the train deck raised empty so that the ship could be loaded, the train deck is then lowered and the ship could be moved off to France. The stock can then be shunted and swapped or reversed for the return of the ship once in dock the train deck could be raised into the ship and the ship unloaded.

 

When the train deck is its lowered position its top surface would be the same finish as the water in the dock.

 

I hope that makes sense !

 

Gibbo.

 

 

 

I think this amounts to a double deck fiddle yard, with the lower level connecting with a traverser which can be raised into the ship body to connect with the layout via the linkspan, or lowered into the subterranean position to connect with the dungeon level of the fiddle yard .

 

(If you were modelling Holyhead or Fishguard this dungeon level would contain a Welsh dragon, and possibly a magic user called Merlin. In your case, modelling the Channel crossing it would merely contain a lot of frogs )

 

Vertical alignment would be assured at the lower level by lowering the traverser onto the baseboard framing . Alignment gear would only be required then at the top level, and possibly the link span could be made to do a job of work and rest on a ledge at the end of the traverser, thereby ironing out any difference in levels between the raised traverser and the rest of the layout, "just like the real thing" 

 

This would further imply that the link span can be raised at the ship end a little , then lowered onto the ledge at the end of the traverser. This then still further implies that the traverser will require some sort of weight at the other end to balance the effect of the linkspan resting on it ? presumably underneath the far end, or possibly a padded bar built into the ship across the beam forms both an end stop to the traverser, stopping things running off it, and also provides a vertical stop /alignment to the lifting mechanism, counteracting any force applied by the linkspan which is resting on the other end of the traverser deck.

 

This would not be a wagon hoist so much as a train hoist, presumably powered by a lifting mechanism/rams underneath. Could contact with the end bar/stop automatically cut off the current to the lifting mechanism somehow??

Edited March 1, 2021 by Ravenser

[SteveyDee68]

 

10 hours ago, Chimer said:

This has all been great fun, but I'm going to put my sensible head on for a moment or two ..... 

 

I am so glad that Chris (Chimer) put his sensible head on a while earlier (prompting a flashback for me to Jon Pertwee as Worzel Gummidge!) as otherwise things could have got a bit silly! 

 

10 hours ago, Chimer said:

Personally, if I saw one set of coaches disappear into a ferry and a different set of coaches emerge 10 minutes later, my first thought might be "How did he do that?"

 

Now I must admit to being a bit of a showman (heavily involved in non-professional musical theatre!) and if I got that kind of reaction from an observer I would actually feel as pleased as a magician who had successfully pulled off a magic trick!

 

10 hours ago, Chimer said:

but the second thought would be  "Why did he do that - that's just wrong!"

 

The why is concerned with the sequence of train movements from the ferries (in the plural), as I have worked one out that equates to two train ferries crossing mid channel, so that a ship arrives at the ferry dock every three hours. Call them Ship X and Ship Y. Ship X is loaded and departs with train A. Ship Y arrives and offloads train B, before loading train C and departing.  In reality, it is the same ship but using the traverser different trains arrive and depart. (I'll post up my sequence in due course as a table.)

 

How do I show that the ferry has departed and another is in it's place? Phil (Harlequin) proposed that the ship actually departs to a ship "fiddle yard" where a second vessel might then return to unload, running on rails and driven like a loco using DCC (just like a very big engine!) and others have suggested real water and magnets. Ideally yes, it would be wonderful to do that, but a 5' long ship needs more than 5' in length just to leave the dock! Unless I knock through into next door's loft space, my ship would not be able to progress beyond the end of the station pier! And as for turning - imagine the radius needed!

 

For an exhibition layout - a BIG one! - I can imagine the ferry acting like a big "train" and running across several baseboards of "sea" to arrive at a second ferry berth to unload. I can even envisage quite wide (about 6 foot in width front to back) sections at the entrance to each ferry berth, where the ship performs a reversing manoeuvre via a turning triangle before backing into the dock. Or perhaps the ship is a European design and able to unload via the bows as well as the stern - that would simplify loading and unloading, but then what ship makes a sea crossing stern first? The ship would still - somehow - need to be turned. The length of the 'sea crossing' would have to be quite long to justify a ship and not just a big bridge - let's say 30' long. Two stations at each end ... fiddle yards...

 

Of course, that layout is a pipe dream! Who could build such a monster, operate it, transport and erect it? Why give over so much space to a single layout where the longest section is simply scenery - and relatively boring scenery at that - for a model to traverse that isn't even a train?! How many would think the sea journey section a waste of space and time far better given over to another couple of railway layouts?!

 

I've spotted an idea which might - to some extent - give the impression of the ferry departing/arriving; it is on another layout thread on RMWeb, but I want to check with its builder if I have correctly identified how he is able to move his ship around his dock area before suggesting it here! But for the time being I shall continue experimenting with the idea of the traverser!

 

Speaking of which, another fortunate accident just before I started writing this suggests that my idea of a laser cut traverser is not perhaps as far fetched as I thought! I recently purchased a  tool tidy tray and a paintbrush tray from ScaleModelScenery and had dry assembled them. I knocked them over and upon picking up the parts noticed that the paintbrush tray had evenly spaced dividers making four channels in total. I slotted them in again quickly, put the taller edges from the tool tidy at the sides, popped a handy van in place and there it was - an instant traverser exactly the right width!! I shall contact Justin in the next couple of days and see what he can do to adapt what he already has into a modular traverser table!  Exciting times!

 

HOURS OF FUN!

 

 

Apologies for the poor light and fuzzy picture

Edited March 2, 2021 by SteveyDee68
Photo

[The Stationmaster]

I do go very much with Chimer's approach but it does depend on how you see your layout operating session working.  In Chimer's idea the ship turns into an equivalent of the way things are done on many large US layouts where a 'branch line'/connection with another 'road has a train in it at the start of the operating session and that train arrives 'on scene' part way through the session.  A second train then disappears into the connection later in the session.

 

The train ferry could be worked exactly like that as per Chimer's method - the ship 'arrives' at the start of the sessoion and 'leaves' towards the end of the session.  it does of course depend on the period of time represented by your operating session and also on underutilising the ferry depending on the sea route it is working.   So if you have a longer operating day or a ship being properly utilised on a short sea route it will make more than one trip each way during your operating session - conveying freight traffic on most of its trips.  And if you do that you would of necessity be back with your movable train deck and fiddle yard.

[SteveyDee68]

A slight delay in progress caused by work and other demands upon my time* but a quick update on progress...

 

I completed the Powerpoint demonstrating my thinking behind the hidden traverser - I find doing something like that makes me think through in detail all my ideas, and then present them in a logical way as if explaining to an external audience. If I can then watch it through and not find anything 'jarring' I then feel like I have progressed the idea enough. At that point, I planned to share it here for comment. Slight issue that turning it into a self running movie ... well, it didn't work! Still sorting that!

 

Meanwhile, another trip to B&Q for some angle brackets and I happened to spot some very small single-direction (fixed) castors - and immediately thought that these would make ideal underpinnings for the traverser. (I was actually looking at drawer-runners but spotted these instead!)

 

And then the thought struck me that they might also work as guides for a vertical traverser too! Hmmmm...

 

Of course, if I was really silly for a moment or two, why not create a double deck traverser that would effectively give me four pairs of four foot long roads, or a grand total of 32' of ship sidings or four 8' long train consists?

 

Excuse me for a moment - there's some gentlemen in white coats at the door...

 

HOURS OF FUN!

 

 

* For anyone interested, this included a whole bunch of short online courses about Lateral Flow Testing for Covid for some of the aforementioned work. As an aside, it wasn't specified which LFT I would be working with, so I did both, at which point I realised I only needed one more 'training course' to be a 'certified' Meet & Greet Operative, two more to be a LFT Site Manager and another two to be a LFT Trainer ... so I did the lot!! All that for two days' work at £10/hour! At least I can say that I helped in a very small way with returning kids safely back into school!

[SteveyDee68]

Well, having completed the PowerPoint it seems I can't share it here as the filetype is not permitted. Converting it into a movie does not work either. I may simply convert it into a PDF document (without animations!)

 

HOURS OF FUN!

[Enterprisingwestern]

On 01/03/2021 at 21:14, SteveyDee68 said:

I happened to pass the offcuts bin from the wood cutting service. Three pieces of wood, all almost perfectly sized for the traverser solution ... at 50p each! Well, you simply can't ignore a good nudge in the middle of the back from Lady Luck like that, can you?!

 

Good luck with that!

 

Mike.

[Satan's Goldfish]

Interesting read. I've fancied a 4 track Harwich style train ferry model for quite a while as a friend to go with the container vessel i bodged together a few years ago, so it's interesting to see some of the drawings you've added on here. My envisioned method of operation was always: unload wagons (A) from ferry, load wagons (B) onto ferry, ignore ferry for an extended period of time until train(s) of unloaded ferry wagons (A) have returned to the harbour from their trip around the (imaginary) layout, then unload wagons (B) from ferry, load wagons (A) onto ferry, etc, etc.

 

I think from articles i've read in the past, at least one of the ferries (Speedlink Vanguard?) did have a vertical lift to put wagons onto an upper deck to fit more on, so the vertical traverser method is not without (almost) a prototype  but that's not on the route for the night ferry stock unfortunately.

 

It's a shame you don't have the space for the ferry to sail 'off scene'; rather than have 2x ferries and needing a hidden ferry fiddle yard, it could work with just replacing an internal cassette with the trains on while it's off scene, or the whole top structure of the vessel if you wanted it to look like 2x separate ships.

[Neils WRX]

Interesting thread, keep thinking about building a Danish Train Ferry layout, with a quay station in the foreground and part of a train ferry at the rear complete with linkspan etc.

 

I was proposing a hole at the rear to just swap vehicles over out of sight, rather than a very clever fiddle yard.

 

Stay safe,

 

Neil

[nightstar.train]

Not sure if you’ve seen this but the British Transport Films film “Linkspan” is rather excellent. Lots of good shots of the train ferries in action and how things worked. 

 

 

Your threads here and in layout planing are very inspiring. I’m thinking I want to build a train ferry now!