Train Ferry Project in 1:76 ... previously ... Two (or more) Heads Are Better Than One ... or ... Too late! That ship has sailed!

[The Stationmaster]

57 minutes ago, nightstar.train said:

Not sure if you’ve seen this but the British Transport Films film “Linkspan” is rather excellent. Lots of good shots of the train ferries in action and how things worked. 

Your threads here and in layout planing are very inspiring. I’m thinking I want to build a train ferry now!

And the worrying things about that is that shipping transport and port wise almost none of it survives - the ports have been rebuilt several times over, just the ferry wharf and just part of the link span remain at Harwich and that is about it.   The ships have gone the lightships have gone, the Channel ferries don't use tugs nowadays and most of that perishable traffic travels by lorry and through the Tunnel.  Even a lot of the railway stuff has gone too - what little is left if the yard at Harwich is rusting away, Bishopsgate Goods is long gone and most of what we saw of the Gare du Nord has changed beyond recognition apart from the overall roof although the street view outside was not much different the last time I was there.

 

But it was a lovely, and enjoyable glimpse of the past although in my experience being shunted off the ferry in the sleeping cars at Dunkerque was a darned sight noisier than it came over as in that film

[jwealleans]

Hello there,

 

I've only just found this thread and haven't had time to read it all, so apologies if this is repetition, but you might find this thread interesting as I think it's along the same lines as what you were planning.

[Simon Lee]

On 26/05/2021 at 19:28, The Stationmaster said:

And the worrying things about that is that shipping transport and port wise almost none of it survives - the ports have been rebuilt several times over, just the ferry wharf and just part of the link span remain at Harwich and that is about it.   The ships have gone the lightships have gone, the Channel ferries don't use tugs nowadays and most of that perishable traffic travels by lorry and through the Tunnel.  Even a lot of the railway stuff has gone too - what little is left if the yard at Harwich is rusting away, Bishopsgate Goods is long gone and most of what we saw of the Gare du Nord has changed beyond recognition apart from the overall roof although the street view outside was not much different the last time I was there.

 

But it was a lovely, and enjoyable glimpse of the past although in my experience being shunted off the ferry in the sleeping cars at Dunkerque was a darned sight noisier than it came over as in that film

 

The use of tugs in normal circumstances is, as you say, not usual however with the advent of the more "block of flats" type ferries, anything other than a moderate SW wind at Dover East will often require a tug. 

 

Seems to have become more prevalent with the generation after the Pride of Dover / Calais. Though the assorted rag bag of ships such as Fiesta and  Fantasia that Stena took on around the 1990s and after were regular customers of the DHB tug fleet. 

 

A work colleage and l had permission to remove "the Control Panel worthy of a spacecraft" when the original ferry dock installation was demolished, unfortunately neither the NRM or the Dover Transport Museum were interested or able to take it, and we were unable to secure affordable safe storage locally and had to watch as it was destroyed by 2 men with sledge hammers.

 

Unsurprisingly there was no shortage of offers for the ships telegraph that was a feature of the control room.

 

 

[sjp23480]

1 hour ago, jwealleans said:

Hello there,

 

I've only just found this thread and haven't had time to read it all, so apologies if this is repetition, but you might find this thread interesting as I think it's along the same lines as what you were planning.

An another - somewhat closer to home: 

 

[SteveyDee68]

On 28/05/2021 at 16:46, Simon Lee said:

A work colleage and l had permission to remove "the Control Panel worthy of a spacecraft" when the original ferry dock installation was demolished, unfortunately neither the NRM or the Dover Transport Museum were interested or able to take it, and we were unable to secure affordable safe storage locally and had to watch as it was destroyed by 2 men with sledge hammers

 

That is, in a word, sad. The fact that neither of those institutions were interested seems incredibly short sighted - I was working at the University of Manchester when they built a replica of "Baby" (the world's first stored program computer) and the interest it stimulated amongst youngsters was tangible. Today we are used to homes being controlled off a hand held mobile phone - to see the sheer physical bulk of what was needed to control equipment not that long ago (in relative time) is a reminder of how far things have progressed.

 

It saddens me to lose such a piece of industrial heritage, as much as seeing a loco go to scrap.

 

At least you tried!

 

Steve S

[SteveyDee68]

On 28/05/2021 at 15:27, jwealleans said:

Hello there,

 

I've only just found this thread and haven't had time to read it all, so apologies if this is repetition, but you might find this thread interesting as I think it's along the same lines as what you were planning.

 

Thank you for the link, I wasn't aware of Tony's ferry. He has modelled one of the early Harwich-Zeebrugge ferries (as originally used in WW 1), which were freight only. Very boxy looking in profile and not as elegant as the 1934 ferries built for the Dover-Calais run, I think he's done a terrific model. Shame about the bl@@dy Photobucket watermarks stamped all over the photos - obscures quite a lot of detail.

 

You commented upon his thread and posted photos of suitable "foreign" rolling stock, but as nothing shows up other than photo placeholders I don't know if the photos were of prototype vehicles or your models thereof. Please feel free to repost them here in this thread - anything to do with train ferries is welcome here! 

 

Steve S

[SteveyDee68]

On 21/03/2021 at 15:45, Satan's Goldfish said:

Interesting read. I've fancied a 4 track Harwich style train ferry model for quite a while as a friend to go with the container vessel I bodged together a few years ago, so it's interesting to see some of the drawings you've added on here.

 

Crikey! How have I not been alerted to more recent posts? Especially from @Satan's Goldfish?! I can only aspire to "bodging" together such a great looking model as The Hairy Viking, which was one of the first threads I bookmarked on RMWeb?! Your use of LEGO was - is - genius! Your model was one of the first to make me think that larger 1:76 scale ships were possible!

 

On 21/03/2021 at 15:45, Satan's Goldfish said:

My envisioned method of operation was always: unload wagons (A) from ferry, load wagons (B) onto ferry, ignore ferry for an extended period of time until train(s) of unloaded ferry wagons (A) have returned to the harbour from their trip around the (imaginary) layout, then unload wagons (B) from ferry, load wagons (A) onto ferry, etc, etc.

 

Upon re-reading the thread, I've realised that I didn't post up several things I had promised, one of which was the table of train movements I worked out using the traverser. 

 

My original plans for operation were just like those you set out above. However, my OCD-like tendencies kicked in to say "Why would the ferry bring back exactly the same wagons as it left with?" and thus this thread of wild ponderings ensued!

 

Using a four road traverser hidden inside the ship, with two lines available for each "sailing", I started plotting as follows:

 

Ferry arrival 1 - Train A unloads from tracks 1&3 - Train B loads onto tracks 1&3 - Ferry departs

Ferry arrival 2 - Train C unloads from tracks 2&4 - Train D loads onto tracks 2&4 - Ferry departs

Ferry arrival 3 - Train B unloads from tracks 1&3 - Train E loads onto tracks 1&3 - Ferry departs

Ferry arrival 4 - Train D unloads from tracks 2&4 - Train F loads onto tracks 2&4 - Ferry departs

 

In the above sequence, Train C is already on traverser tracks 2&4 at the start of the sequence. There are always two train movements (load and unload) between any one train leaving the ship, with two different trains seen in the process. This satisfied my desire to represent "different sailings" so that a train wasn't loaded and then the same train unloaded.

 

Which made sense if dealing with one ferry plying a route between, say, the mainland and an island (albeit one large enough to warrant transporting trains to, for example the Island of Sodor!) What didn't work was if there were two identical services running simultaneously and crossing mid journey/voyage, which was exactly the scenario with The Night Ferry service.

 

My one ferry needed to represent two ferries, one departing from the UK at the same time as its sister ship - carrying a doppelganger train service - departed from France. Taking a nominal voyage time of three hours, plus one hour to unload/load trains, I worked out the following sequence (which repeats itself every two days):

• 00:00 Day 1 - Ferry X departs for France - Train A (Night Ferry UK-FR) on tracks 1&3, Train B already on tracks 2&4 as Ferry Y
• 03:00 Day 1 - Ferry Y (FR) arrives from France - Train A (now Night Ferry FR-UK) unloads from tracks 1&3 - Train C loads onto tracks 1&3 - (Train B still on tracks 2&4 as Ferry X)
• 04:00 Day 1 - Ferry Y departs for France
• 07:00 Day 1 - Ferry X (UK) returns from France - Train B unloads from tracks 2&4 - Train D loads onto tracks 2&4 - (Train C still on tracks 1&3 as Ferry Y)
• 08:00 Day 1 - Ferry X departs for France
• 11:00 Day 1 - Ferry Y (FR) returns from France - Train C unloads from tracks 1&3 - Train E loads onto tracks 1&3 - (Train D still on tracks 2&4 as Ferry X)
• 12:00 Day 1 - Ferry Y departs for France
• 15:00 Day 1 - Ferry X (UK) returns from France - Train D unloads from tracks 2&4 - Train F loads onto tracks 2&4 - (Train E still on tracks 1&3 as Ferry Y)
• 16:00 Day 1 - Ferry X departs for France
• 19:00 Day 1 - Ferry Y (FR) returns from France - Train E unloads from tracks 1&3 - Train G loads onto tracks 1&3 - (Train F still on tracks 2&4 as Ferry X)
• 20:00 Day 1 - Ferry Y departs for France
• 23:00 Day 1 - Ferry X (UK) returns from France - Train F unloads from tracks 2&4 - Train A (Night Ferry UK-FR) loads onto tracks 2&4 - (Train G on tracks 1&3 as Ferry Y)
• 00:00 Day 2 - Ferry X departs for France (with Train A Night Ferry UK-FR on tracks 2&4)
• 03:00 Day 2 - Ferry Y (FR) returns from France - Train A (now Night Ferry FR-UK) unloads from tracks 2&4 - Train H loads onto tracks 2&4 - (Train G still on tracks 1&3 as Ferry X)
• 04:00 Day 2 - Ferry Y departs for France
• 07:00 Day 2 - Ferry X (UK) returns from France - Train G unloads from tracks 1&3 - Train I loads to tracks 1&3 - (Train H still on tracks 2&4 as Ferry Y)
• 08:00 Day 2 - Ferry X departs for France
• 11:00 Day 2 - Ferry Y (FR) returns from France - Train H unloads from tracks 2&4 - Train J loads to tracks 2&4 - (Train I still on tracks 1&3 as Ferry X)
• 12:00 Day 2 - Ferry Y departs for France
• 15:00 Day 2 - Ferry X (UK) returns from France - Train I unloads from tracks 1&3 - Train K loads to tracks 1&3 - (Train J still on tracks 2&4 as Ferry Y)
• 16:00 Day 2 - Ferry X departs for France
• 19:00 Day 2 - Ferry Y (FR) returns from France - Train J unloads from tracks 2&4 - Train B loads to tracks 2&4 - (Train K still on tracks 1&3 as Ferry X)
• 20:00 Day 2 - Ferry Y departs for France
• 23:00 Day 2 - Ferry X (UK) returns from France - Train K unloads from tracks 1&3 - Train A (Night Ferry UK-FR) loads onto tracks 1&3 - (Train B still on tracks 2&4 as Ferry Y)
• RETURN TO START OF SEQUENCE

Ferry X is the service departing the UK at midnight on Day 1, carrying the UK-FR Night Ferry service, Ferry Y departing France at exactly the same time carrying the FR-UK equivalent train. In reality, there is a single train representing both, which is why Train A is the only train to be put aboard the ferry and then removed again in the next step of the sequence! All other trains see a different train offloaded and another one loaded between being loaded and then unloaded themselves. There are enough train consists to provide variety:

 

Train A - Night Ferry service - Wagonlits Type F sleeper coaches and fourgon wagons

Train B - Perishables & Fish - European outline wagons

Train C - Perishables & Fish - UK outline ferry wagons

Train D - General cargo - UK outline ferry vans

Train E - Tanker traffic - European outline wagons

Train F - Steel traffic - UK outline wagons

Train G - Fertiliser traffic - UK outline wagons

Train H - General cargo - European outline ferry vans

Train I - Tanker traffic - UK outline wagons

Train J - Special traffic - horseboxes, cattle, alcohol, cars - UK outline wagons

Train K - Bulk traffic - cement, oil, grain etc

 

It occured to me that another, imaginery 'through' service might be an all-Pullman train running in the middle of the day - in this sequence it would be Train E - but that would necessitate a jiggle of the sequence to let it be taken off again as its doppelganger equivalent would appear on the next ferry.

 

This sort of activity exercises the little grey cells and gives them all a demned good workout!

 

As I usually say ...

 

HOURS OF FUN!

 

Edited July 29, 2021 by SteveyDee68
Late spotted typos!

[jwealleans]

On 29/05/2021 at 22:50, SteveyDee68 said:

You commented upon his thread and posted photos of suitable "foreign" rolling stock

 

Yes, they seem to have fallen victim to the Photobucket fiasco.  I don't actually go onto that forum very often and it didn't occur to me to update them.   At the time I was involved with exhibiting Ely Club's layout of Thurston and we were advised that the Harwich - Whitemoor working passed through twice daily carrying ferry traffic.   I researched and built a number of vehicles to represent it.  This was the sort of thing:

 

 

Belgian peak-roofed vans.  These were from a resin casting by Jon Hall, backdated to 1950s condition.

 

 

French ventilated vans (Fasu).  This is the type of van which is in the NRM.   I also built a pair of the shorter HKA.

 

 

DR interwar vans, again in 1950s condition.

 

 

The first ones I did - 6 Italian insulated vans to four different diagrams.

 

 

British built ROD 20T van sold to the Belgians after the first war.

 

 

Token british vehicle - the Ratio SR van, but with the correct brake gear.

 

 

German stake wagon.

 

I had designs on doing Transfesa and Hungarian vans as well as the Roco Italian ventilated van which was very common, but we ran out of fiddle yard space.   I usually manage to sneak at least one onto any layout I operate even now.

 

 

[Andy Hayter]

I doubt the Fasu would have still had the PLM branding in the 50s.  Nationalisation was in 1938 and SNCF would have replaced the PLM.  A very nice model though

[jwealleans]

20 minutes ago, Andy Hayter said:

I doubt the Fasu would have still had the PLM branding in the 50s. 

 

No, indeed.  That one was for me (I model the LNER in the 1930s) and the other was used on Thurston.   The two HKA were done the same way.

 

The German vans have prewar branding one side and postwar the other for the same reason.

Edited May 31, 2021 by jwealleans

[SteveyDee68]

On 31/05/2021 at 18:53, jwealleans said:

 

Yes, they seem to have fallen victim to the Photobucket fiasco.  I don't actually go onto that forum very often and it didn't occur to me to update them.   At the time I was involved with exhibiting Ely Club's layout of Thurston and we were advised that the Harwich - Whitemoor working passed through twice daily carrying ferry traffic.   I researched and built a number of vehicles to represent it.  This was the sort of thing:

 

 

Belgian peak-roofed vans.  These were from a resin casting by Jon Hall, backdated to 1950s condition.

 

 

French ventilated vans (Fasu).  This is the type of van which is in the NRM.   I also built a pair of the shorter HKA.

 

 

DR interwar vans, again in 1950s condition.

 

 

The first ones I did - 6 Italian insulated vans to four different diagrams.

 

 

British built ROD 20T van sold to the Belgians after the first war.

 

 

Token british vehicle - the Ratio SR van, but with the correct brake gear.

 

 

German stake wagon.

 

I had designs on doing Transfesa and Hungarian vans as well as the Roco Italian ventilated van which was very common, but we ran out of fiddle yard space.   I usually manage to sneak at least one onto any layout I operate even now.

 

 

 

Thank you for posting @jwealleans - I have no idea why your post didn't flag up in my notifications else I would have seen and responded much earlier. If these kind of wagons were still in use in the 1960s, then I am a happy bunny with examples to inspire me!

 

Steve S

[jwealleans]

The French, Belgian, German and Italian vans certainly made it to the 1970s, there are pictures in Dave Larkin's books.   Jon Hall can give you more information, that's more his era than mine. 

 

Precision Labels do the transfers for the Italian and German vans in their range after I commissioned them.   He may offer the French ones as well, I can't recall.

[jonhall]

 

The little Belgian vans were certainly seen in the UK in the 1970's because there is a photo in David Larkin's original PO book from Cheshire in c1973, these were relatively numerous (~800 of the with end doors and a similar number without) and a decent number were refitted with UIC doublelink suspension, as can be seen in the two examples in this thread, I think all 5 of the examples I'm aware of i Belgium have UIC spring hangers

 

Jon

 

[jonhall]

A few seconds film of the then new BR ferry vans, along with one of the little Belgian types

 

 

 

Jon

[Ian_B]

On 25/02/2021 at 01:22, SteveyDee68 said:

I have expressed elsewhere the longstanding desire to model a train ferry in OO 4mm/foot, having read The Wardleworth Lines Committee article in the Railway Modeller as a youngster and being fascinated by its train ferry, and subsequently feeling challenged by the follow-up article talking about it and how "there are some things you can do in N that are simply impractical in another scale". The Rev Alan Shone designed and built a freelance train ferry in N gauge capable of holding eight coaches split across two tracks, so it was a little over four carriages in length. (Of course, the prototype Dover train ferry was similarly sized in carriage length terms, but having four tracks could hold up to 16 coaches.) The WLC layout included timetabled trains to be shunted onto the ferry, and original plans included a second ferry so that they might be exchanged and a different train be unloaded. Experiments quickly revealed that N gauge stock could not stay put on the rails whilst moving the model ship, and so just the one ferry was built and any stock worked onto it was assumed to represent a different train upon its 'return'.

 

Now, I have pondered over the idea for years (quite literally) of turning Cyril Freezer's Minories plan (with the goods shed at the front) into a station with a train ferry berth. Restricting the ferry length to two tracks and four carriages (a la WLC mentioned above) would still allow for an eight coach passenger train to arrive and be shunted onto the ferry. Lengthwise, I imagined a layout with a terminus of platform length of loco plus eight coaches, throat pointwork, and a four coach long headshunt running alongside the arrival/departure lines to allow the ferry to be loaded/unloaded.

 

I have drawn rough plans for this, and also an alternative with the ferry berth at the rear of the station (looking from the front) to ensure that the station might be fully seen and not obscured by the ship. Both seem feasible, but one aspect is puzzling annoying frustrating me - the stock is shunted onto the ship, and then gets shunted off again.

 

I would really like to exchange the stock on board the ship so that - despite not moving anywhere - the stock coming off the ship when it returns is different.

 

This is where I hope I might ask for any ideas - however barmy! - from fellow RMWebbers as to how to achieve this!

 

There are a few "rules" ...

 

1) The exchange of stock must remain "hidden" from view - not shunt it off again and "pretend" not to see it, or remove it by hand

 

2) The whole ship is modelled (unlike a Continental layout I read about with only the stern of the ship modelled, as a fiddle yard entrance)

 

3) The exchange of stock should not involve so much 'offstage fiddling' as to interupt the 'suspension of disbelief'

 

4) If possible, the process might be automated to assist with (3) (Wow! Just, wow!)

 

If this was an exhibition layout, the whole idea of the exchange of stock is to have an audience wonder "How did they do that?" (Like watching a magic trick!) Yes, I am thinking suchlike might have great entertainment value!

 

I have already sketched out multiple ideas but, as the title suggests, applying the hive mind of RMWeb may come up with a workable solution that I would simply never have considered.

 

Thinking hats on, chaps and chappesses; I really hope for - nay, look forward to - some imaginative solutions!

 

HOURS OF FUN!

 

 

Have a chat with John and the guys from Liverpool Lime street. Their Fiddle yard is Awe inspiring!

Ian_B

[SteveyDee68]

On 25/02/2021 at 12:23, imt said:

It never fails to amaze me that wonderful solutions to extraordinary problems appear on this forum.  This is/was a fantastic thread full of "cunning plans".  It might even move me to think about doing a ferry.  I hope th OP does have a go at mocking it up and look forward to seeing it if he does.

 

It was a while ago you responded, but I just spotted (on re-reading the thread for some info) that due to the older version of Safari running on my old (4th series) iPad that I had selected "agree" rather than "thanks" as my reaction! Unfortunately, there is a dirty great big black circle over where the reaction button sits, and when I select it to leave a reaction, the black circle appears randomly positioned over the pop out list of available reactions meaning that I sometimes select a different reaction to the one I intended! Whoops! (Bet you thought I was right up my own backside!)

 

I do agree that these forums are full of solutions to many modelling problems - exactly why I ask questions, because many heads are better than one (unless buying a hat).

 

I do hope you also attempt to model a train ferry. Although big items by model railway standards, remember that most UK train ferries are roughly only five/six coaches long in overall length and so not that big when it comes to ocean going ships. I am certain many cargo ships of the time were bigger overall.

 

HOURS OF FUN!

[SteveyDee68]

Announcing it here ...

 

I am starting to build a rake of CIWL Type F sleeping cars*

 

Ordered an expensive 3D printed body shell off Shapeways* to act as a guide/pattern

 

Also a pair of suitable bogies* from the same source

 

Using these as patterns, I hope to create the eight coaches I need for the layout. Large stocks of plasticard and suitable glues plus lots of sharp scalpel blades definitely the order of the day.

 

HOURS OF FUN!

 

* Not really but relying upon the age old coincidence that as soon as someone announces that they are working upon a particular model that a manufacturer promptly announces they are making it!!

 

 

Edited October 31, 2021 by SteveyDee68
Deathly slow editing on RMWeb!!

[SteveyDee68]

Apologies to @Satan's Goldfish as his reaction to my post was to the incomplete post due to the painfully slow speed of RMWeb meaning I gave up on my post before completion!

 

The reality is that I hope that by simply announcing that I am about to undertake a mammoth modelling project that a coincidence occurs and a manufacturer announces they are making them (saving me the time, effort and elastaplasts of trying to do it myself!)

 

Steve S

[Zomboid]

I think with a proposition like that, you really need to be actually committed to making it (maybe have about 3 of the carriages in various states of completion) before a commercial manufacturer will announce the stock. You will then down tools, and about a year after you would have finished your carriages had you carried on, the commercial version will be cancelled.

[SteveyDee68]

On 01/03/2021 at 18:20, jonhall said:

 

 

Can I recomend https://www.abebooks.co.uk/book-search/title/train-ferries-of-western-europe/author/wallis/

 

Jon

Hi Jon

 

Thank you for the recommendation which I somehow overlooked when you posted it to the thread. I’ve followed your link and just ordered a copy from AbeBooks (whom I have bought from before).

 

This is the very book that the Rev Alan Shone (of Wardleworth Lines Committee and N gauge train ferry fame) used as his “bible” in designing his own ship, so why I have never thought of buying it myself is beyond me!

 

I shall see what the post delivers in the next few days. Meanwhile, I have drawn out a design to refit GWR Centenary coach stock as British train ferry coaches to rival the Wagon-Lits Type F coaches - totally non-prototypical but the creative process involved is great fun!

 

Steve S

[SteveyDee68]

Happy Easter…

 

Email notice to say that my book purchase has been cancelled as no longer available…

 

HOURS OF GLUM!

[hayfield]

20 hours ago, SteveyDee68 said:

Happy Easter…

 

Email notice to say that my book purchase has been cancelled as no longer available…

 

HOURS OF GLUM!

 

These book sellers who seemingly advertise items they do not have should have some form of penalty imposed on them.  I have just gone on to the link and you can still buy it !!!

[jwealleans]

Four copies on Ebay as of now, starting at £2.50.

[SteveyDee68]

On 18/04/2022 at 09:38, jwealleans said:

Four copies on Ebay as of now, starting at £2.50.

Damn! Already found and ordered another copy for £10!

 

AbeBooks seems to be a kind of online ‘clearing house’ for various booksellers - I’ve purchased (again) through the site and had confirmation that the bookshop/seller is despatching my book; last time it would appear that the seller (I suppose ‘subcontractor’) no longer had a copy to sell!

 

Steve S

Edited April 19, 2022 by SteveyDee68
Update re book purchase

[Iskra]

As all the pictures have disappeared, I can't see what progress has been made on this project. It sounds a fascinating one.

 

But, a simple way of delivering the ferry effect you desire would be to have two ships arranged bow to bow with a double-sided backscene dividing them at the bow on a rotating turntable. You shunt your coaches on, rotate the turntable and the second ship magically pulls up at the dock. The main limitation with this is the space required.

Edited April 27, 2022 by Iskra