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SR to BR (S) Transition liveries


Guest Jack Benson
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Guest Jack Benson

The timeframe for the layout reflects the age group of the members and it stretches from December ‘48-52, the locos are a mix of Southern wartime black with a couple of hybrid SR/BR numbering, a malachite BLP with the other half in early BR black. Before we return our BR lined M7 to SR wartime black, we have some doubts because images of the transition period are not prolific and if we did paint it plain black would BRITISH RAILWAYS on the tanks be appropriate?
 

Coaching stock is a similar mix of pre-war olive green, a set of low -window Maunsells, a two-car olive green 58’ Lyme Regis set and a red set of gate stock, whilst goods stock is a mixture.

 

Just wondering how long some SR liveries lasted after nationalisation, we guess that there are always exceptions to the rule but generally what would have been the appearance of the period mentioned above? For example should we acquire an olive green gate set or was Lancing quick off the mark?

 

That’s it, thanks

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Some of the paint lasted long enough for some coaches to miss out crimson altogether and go into BR green next.

 

However, Southern branding would be erased and BR markings applied at the next revarnishing. That usually happened at 2 to 3 year intervals so any surviving to your cut-off date would be exceptional. Same probably applies to No Smoking signs. I've seen a few 1949 pics where the "SOUTHERN" has already gone but the SR number remains, with no added "S", so there might have been a concerted campaign to remove company branding even before the next works visit.

 

I'd also think it highly probable that at least one gate-set would have received BR crimson livery by 1952, so the one you have should be OK.

 

John

Edited by Dunsignalling
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The key reference for the liveries of individual Ex LSWR locomotives is the D. L Bradley series of books.

This gives full details of dates at which the changes were introduced on each locomotive.

For the M7s there is a broad range of possibilities, from Malachite and British railways with 30,000 number lasting on one locomotive until 1953, Through plain black with British Railways, with s prefix and 30,000 numbers applied from 1948 , to BR lined black from 1949 onwards.

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For coaching stock, the SR/BR(S) painting cycle was repaint after 6 years, revarnish with paint touch-ups after 3, although stock that was little used and whose paintwork remained OK would go longer. Obviously this hadn't been followed during the war years but I doubt whether much remained in olive green for very long after the post-nationalisation red livery was introduced in late 1949(?). Carriages that had been repainted in malachite would have retained that colour throughout your period although the insignia may well have been altered to one extent - there was real mis-mash of lettering and numbering schemes on stock at that time.

 

An M7 would have been in BR (not SR wartime) unlined black bearing the insignia BRITISH RAILWAYS, there may have been a handful in malachite with BRITISH RAILWAYS either in "sunshine" or on Gill Sans lettering - it depends precisely when they passed through works, unlettered is also a possibility as are s---- rather than 3---- numbers (and numbers on front buffer beams and bunker backs).

 

To be certain, you really need photos, but it does mean that it is difficult for someone to challenge what you choose to do unless they have photographic proof that you were wrong.

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Guest Jack Benson

Hi and thanks

Presumably, stock and locos that had received their BR livery would be relatively tidy whilst those still retaining SR livery would be less than pristine after six+ years of hard work?

 

Stay Safe

 

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1 hour ago, Jack Benson said:

 

Presumably, stock and locos that had received their BR livery would be relatively tidy whilst those still retaining SR livery would be less than pristine after six+ years of hard work?

 

Yes and no. Stock and (especially) locos could become quite dowdy in a few months if they weren't cleaned properly and we are talking about a period when manpower was becoming a significant problem. On the other hand, there was a lot of modern (Bulleid) rolling stock which had been painted in malachite just before the change to crimson and cream came in and considerable attempts do seem to have been made to keep those vehicles looking clean and tidy - indeed, most managed to survive in malachite until the change of BR livery policy in 1956 (which specified green for Southern Region stock) and so were never painted crimson and cream.

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Guest Jack Benson

Whilst books provide the bulk of information, contemporary images and films can be very useful but only if they can be found.

 

Thankfully, Douglas Seaton, the owner of the local Ford dealership began recording the railways of South Somerset and West Dorset in the ‘30s. Of particular interest are the sequences captured around Yeovil in the late ‘40-50s, many of the fleeting images are not mentioned elsewhere and provide an insight into the transition period, especially the odd variations in liveries. Douglas Seaton’s films were uploaded on DVD in the last 20 years and copies are occasionally available. 
 

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StaySafe

Edited by Jack Benson
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Guest Jack Benson

Thanks to everyone, the Hornby S&DJR set has been swapped for a CLC hi-window set* and the next question is goods stock. Thankfully, the Mike King books are helpful but brake van liveries are a minefield. Were dk brown and red ends standard throughout the existence of the Southern until ‘48?
 

Apologies for asking but no response from the HMRS to purchase their books and the Amazon price tag of £30+ for an ‘acceptable’ ex-library copy is beyond my wallet, neither is the local library open......

 

Thanks

 

StaySafe

 

*A comment on a Southern forum and webpage indicated that some Maunsell sets received CLC as early as ‘49. 
 

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Jack, I have the original edition of the HMRS livery register for the LSWR and Southern Railway. It makes no mention of any changes to dark brown and red ends, the only note about wartime changes being the decision in 1942 to reduce painting of wagons to a minimum and metal parts to be painted black. However, this book dates from 1970 so there must be more recent research!

 

Cheers,

 

Terry

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OPC's Southern Wagons Vol 4 includes brake vans. As late as 1942 it is clear brown w red ends was still standard for new construction, while a 1943 vehicle, shown in early BR days, with a BR number, is still stated to be in those same colours. 

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Guest Jack Benson

Presumably by ‘48, nine years of lost manpower, wartime austerity and materiel shortages, the stock would be somewhat careworn, by the same token those vehicles that had managed to receive their first BR livery would be a rather marked contrast? Our SR livery passenger stock will be weathered accordingly whilst the CLC Maunsells will just receive a slight dusting. 
 

I just need to change our pre-order of the KMRC road van in order to add some variety to the goods yard.
 

Before someone rushes to correct, it is realised that manpower and materiel shortages continued well into the ‘50s, my ration card still shows the issue of Florida orange juice until ‘57.

 

Thank you

 

StaySafe

 

 

 

 

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10 hours ago, Jack Benson said:

........ but brake van liveries are a minefield. Were dk brown and red ends standard throughout the existence of the Southern until ‘48? .....

 

The HMRS are having to work from home so your message may be on its way from one home to another where the books are stocked ..... I recently received two books from two different home addresses !

 

The nominally last-built 'Pillbox' brake - from 1948 - survives at the East Lancs. Railway and provided paint samples for John Harvey's book : samples plural = brown and red. ( It's since been restored with pre-war large lettering, unfortunately.)

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Guest Jack Benson

One final question,

any recommendations for illustrated books that feature the very early years of British Railways, colour would be an added bonus. My meagre collection of albums seems to commence in ‘53 whilst the years ‘39-50 hardly a mention except the locomotive exchanges and a few rather moody images of Bulleid new designs.

 

StaySafe

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