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Speed of transport of milk tanks' contents, 'from cow to Vauxhall'.


C126
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Sorry to be so dull-witted, but there is a big 'milk train following' on RMWeb, so I hope someone can answer a simple question for me:

 

How many days old was the milk in the tank trains from the West Country by the time it was discharged at the London terminals (particularly Vauxhall)?

 

The farm milks its cows twice a day (Day 1), morning and evening.  If a farm had its milk taken (say mid-day) on Day 1 to the nearest 'concentration depot', in Devon, for example, was it then loaded that evening to be taken by train over-night to London, and so unloaded/ discharged on the morning of Day 2?  Or would the 'supply chain' be slower?

 

I would just like to know when the milk tanks arrived to be loaded, to get up to London a.s.a.p.  I am planning a milk siding for my Southern Region layout ('Rule 1'); when must one 'slot in' the arrival of empty tanks (mid-morning?), and departure to Town of filled ones (early evening?).  All help gratefully received, and thanks as always for giving this your consideration.

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My recollection of the milk trains from Carmarthen and West Wales in the late 1960s/ early 1970s is that trains would be despatched from late afternoon onwards. The first used to pass Llanelli around 16:00, a second about 19:00 and a third, Conditional, working around midnight. The milk would not have gone direct from farm to train, as it would have to be cooled before its journey, but it should still be feasible for at least some of Day 1's milk to be in London for Day 2, and on the streets for Day 3. What I am uncertain of is at what stage pasteurisation would be done?

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1 minute ago, Fat Controller said:

My recollection of the milk trains from Carmarthen and West Wales in the late 1960s/ early 1970s is that trains would be despatched from late afternoon onwards. The first used to pass Llanelli around 16:00, a second about 19:00 and a third, Conditional, working around midnight. The milk would not have gone direct from farm to train, as it would have to be cooled before its journey, but it should still be feasible for at least some of Day 1's milk to be in London for Day 2, and on the streets for Day 3. What I am uncertain of is at what stage pasteurisation would be done?

 

Many thanks @Fat Controller for such a prompt reply.  I had forgotten to allow for the processes of chilling, pasteurisation, etc.!  However, that is just the sort of timings I need.

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What I remember of the time was that most Carmarthenshire and Cardiganshire dairy farms still loaded churns, rather than bulk tanks. To speed up turnaround, farmers were encouraged to build transit platforms at the junction with the main road, obviating the need to take a large vehicle into the constraints of the farm yard. Sadly, this cut down the opportunities for tea and gossip....

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I believe in SR days until the early 1960s the milk loaded to rail in the West Country in the morning of day 1 would be at Vauxhall or wherever by the early hours of day 2. 

Edit - One service that collected milk was the 3.17pm Eggesford to Crediton freight which attaches at Lapford. From Crediton the tanks were attached to a passenger service to Exeter Central.

On the SR main line from the West Country the main train ran up in the evening, departing Exeter Central at 18.48 and terminating at Clapham Junction in the early hours. From there tanks were tripped to Vauxhall, South Morden and elsewhere in the early morning. The empty tanks were collected at Clapham Junction and the main train back west departed at 3.54pm.

 

cheers 

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When I was a small boy, I sometimes used to watch all this, because the bottling-plant in our small town had "roll-up" shutter doors all round, and they'd often be left wide open, so that the whole thing was visible. What I don't remember is there being much "buffer storage" between pasteurising and bottling - I think they ran the plant in the evening or overnight and that the milk came from pasteurising, through "cooling radiators", straight to bottling. But, this was c1963, so I might have forgotten parts of it!

 

By the 1970s, the farm at the school where my father worked had cooled storage, and milk was collected by tanker two or three times each week, but before that it was churns to the dairy (the one at Sheffield Park station).

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19 minutes ago, Rivercider said:

would be at Vauxhall or wherever by the early hours of day 2.  

 

In the 1970s, the milk arrived at Vauxhall mid-morning, after the peak hours, and IIRC the same applied to Morden. The empties were then collated at Clapham Junction and I think left either just before or just after the evening peak. The milk train got to Waterloo for running-round at about 1100 or 1130.

 

 

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22 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

 

In the 1970s, the milk arrived at Vauxhall mid-morning, after the peak hours, and IIRC the same applied to Morden. The empties were then collated at Clapham Junction and I think left either just before or just after the evening peak. The milk train got to Waterloo for running-round at about 1100 or 1130.

 

 

Thanks for that. 

I have had a look through various of my books and info on milk traffic is scattered between them.

I have amended my earlier post to reflect West Country milk on the Southern Region route until the early 1960s.

The main milk train departed Exeter Central at 18.48, as a passenger and milk service to Yeovil Junction where the passenger stock was detached, and more milk attached before going forward to Clapham Junction.

 

cheers

 

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Starting at the farm end - my grandparents was a mixed farmers and had a herd of 30-40 milking Friesians.  Milking took place morning and afternoon but despatch/collection only took place once daily, normally in the morning when the milk was collected by Jobs.   In earlier days milk had been take to the nearest station but I suspect that also only happened once per day.

 

After milking the milk was cooled and then pout into churns so a milk from a cow milked in the morning would be collected with the milk from the previous afternoon.  Their milk ddn't go to London but went to Jobs dairy premises in Didcot where it was pasteurised and bottled.  Around 1960/61 Jobs tried to end farm collections in churns and - with soem resistance from farmers - managed to switch over to bulk collection from farms using tanker lorries which also meant the farm had to stoore the milk in bulk tanks although collections were still made daily.

 

I know that Jobs were despatching milk in bulk to London from Didcot but by the early - mid 1960s they used road tankers for that purpose.  That meant that a mixture of that morning's and the previous afternoon's milk was taken up to London overnight and then bottled for distribution.  So what was delivered to sombody's doorstep would have left the cow approximately either 24 hours or 36 hours previously.

 

It would obviously be different over longer distances -  in the 1966-67 WTT the evening trains from the West of England and South Wales arrived at Kensington between 03.00 and 04.00 but the 13,45 from Whitland was there before 23.00 and would probably be conveying milk collected from the farms that morning so would give a similar overall transit to milk sent up by road from Didcot.  It is quite possible that the 18.00 St Erth could be conveying milk that left teh cows that afternoon and if it could be quickly processed it might makea morning delivery in London the following day.

 

It is quite possible that 'Nearholmer' is not suffering from false memory if flows on the SR route were similar to those on the WR or if milk tankers were forwarded from Kensington to Vauxhall. 

 

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I’ve possibly confused things for the unwary by the way I wrote.

 

Arrive Clapham junction from West Country, before morning peak.

 

Trips from Clapham to Vauxhall and Morden  after the peak. Vauxhall train continued to Waterloo after unloading, ran round ‘just before lunchtime’, then back to Clapham.

 

Once Both trips arrived back, Marshall train and depart west.

 

Whether the transit from the west and return of empties was via SR or WR, I’m not totally sure - I thought it was via SR though.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

 

In the 1970s, the milk arrived at Vauxhall mid-morning, after the peak hours, and IIRC the same applied to Morden. The empties were then collated at Clapham Junction and I think left either just before or just after the evening peak. The milk train got to Waterloo for running-round at about 1100 or 1130.

 

 

I have found a reference to milk traffic on the Nine Elms Loco Shed - History site, a section on Torrington milk.

One correspondent mentions that between 1964-1967 on arrival at Clapham Junction the train was divided and one portion went straight to Vauxhall. This was due to a length limit and time limit at Vauxhall platform 1. Once empty this set then returned to Clapham Junction before the morning peak. After the morning peak the second section of milk tanks then went to Vauxhall.

 

cheers

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46 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

I'm going purely from memory of seeing the trains, which I did fairly often, so if someone produces a WTT that says differently, believe that, and that I am suffering from false-memory syndrome!

Having found more info on line it seems you were watching the second portion of the milk train being discharged each day. The tanks being split into two batches due to time and length limits at Vauxhall.

I imagine it must have been a pretty slick operation, not something they would want to overrun,

there would be a 'please explain' if they did!

 

cheers

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2 hours ago, nigb55009 said:

What a brilliant advertising slogan, " From cow to Vauxhall"

Having grown up and cut my amateur spannering teeth in rural Somerset, I can remember quite a few Vauxhalls to which that might have applied. 

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I also wonder whether the details varied over time, because when both trips were out, one to Vauxhall/Waterloo with a shunting loco, the other to Morden with a 73, I don’t recall seeing tanks ‘leftover’ at Clapham Junction, as they would have been if there had been an earlier trip to Vauxhall.

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I've linked to this photo before, but it is so evocative that I have to do so again https://www.flickr.com/photos/12a_kingmoor_klickr/6338078959

 

Just how I remember it, although the BILs on the Ascot service turned into VEPs over time, and exactly why I bought a Wrenn 08 and a few St Ivel tankers, and planned a layout based on a country milk branch (which I never built!). 

 

This one implies that the tanks were coming from the WR, but whatever the case the vans are interesting. what is the not-SR one? https://www.flickr.com/photos/nigelmenzies/12463491534/in/album-72157639626017906/

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

I've linked to this photo before, but it is so evocative that I have to do so again https://www.flickr.com/photos/12a_kingmoor_klickr/6338078959

 

Just how I remember it, although the BILs on the Ascot service turned into VEPs over time, and exactly why I bought a Wrenn 08 and a few St Ivel tankers, and planned a layout based on a country milk branch (which I never built!). 

 

This one implies that the tanks were coming from the WR, but whatever the case the vans are interesting. what is the not-SR one? https://www.flickr.com/photos/nigelmenzies/12463491534/in/album-72157639626017906/

 

 

 

Just as this was posted, I started trawling through Flickr for such images under the simple "milk train" search term.  Some lovely pics out there, and interesting info. from a user about moaning lorry-drivers stopping the reuse of Chard Jn by EWS in the '90's.  Many thanks to you all for this and all the contributions so far.  I will start drafting my time table on Saturday...

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Another interesting picture ........ this looks like its coming from the WLER, but it might be a shunt of some sort, or going west via Virginia Water to Woking.

 

I think the buffet car might be one of the "wired" buffets, used between TCs, which lived at Clapham Junction most of the time.

 

1972 - ED and 4-SUB at Clapham..

 

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6 minutes ago, C126 said:

 

Just as this was posted, I started trawling through Flickr for such images under the simple "milk train" search term.  Some lovely pics out there, and interesting info. from a user about moaning lorry-drivers stopping the reuse of Chard Jn by EWS in the '90's.  Many thanks to you all for this and all the contributions so far.  I will start drafting my time table on Saturday...

 

If you are referring to the same photo of a Chard Junction milk train that I am thinking about then Paul was a BR driver at a local depot at the time,

 

cheers

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The empties for the South Wales job came back down overnight, so were presumably available for collection at Kensington by sometime late in the previous evening.  This suggests that they were at the distribution depots in London for around 16/20 hours before being sent back out to the dairies, if they arrived in the wee hours or early morning.  A different set of tanks must have been working in the circuit, perhaps more than two. to maintain supply.  Day 1, milk collected from farm to processing plant and loaded into tanks, sent up line in the late afternoon or the evening.  Day 2, loaded tanks arrive at distribution depot London end (Kensington, Neasden, Morden, etc) in the very early or ealry morning, emptied by evening and the milk pasteurised and bottled, distributed for delivery, and the empty tanks available for collection by BR.  Day 3, empty tanks collected from London depots and returned to processing plant downline somewhere (Torrington, Whitland, Felin Fach etc).  Day 4, repeat process. 

 

This is conjecture on my part based on what I know of how the trains ran on the South Wales service.  We depostited empties and picked up loaded tanks from Marshfield, brought to the yard by road tankers from the plant half a mile up the road, around mid afternoon.  It implies at least 3 sets of tanks in circuits for each working, and in the days when they were used, at least 2 dedicate passenger brake vans.  The empties came back in freight trains, and the brakes were sent back downline in parcels trains, again circuit working.

 

A feature of milk tanks which happily cannot be modelled (actually, it can but I don't recommend it), is the spillage residue which clung to the outside of the tanks.  It stank.

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