Speed of transport of milk tanks' contents, 'from cow to Vauxhall'.

[br2975]

How to combine two threads, into one.

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During 1972, Canton had two Cl.25 Duties:-

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The first, worked 4C21 10:10 Cardiff - Pontypridd parcels, and return, before working the 6C45 14:50 empty milk tanks to Marshfield, whence it returned with loaded tanks via Newport (run round) to Cardiff General, from whence they would later be worked to 'the Big Smoke' by 6M16 13:40 Whitland - Kensington which was at Cardiff General 16:47 to 17:05.

The second Cl.25 worked L/E from Canton to Pontypridd, returning with the 4C24 21:10 Pontypridd-Cardiff parcels.

At Cardiff, both Cl.25s came together, and in multiple then worked the 1B30 22:30 Cardiff - Gloucester parcels, returning with the 02:20 Gloucester-Cardiff parcels, which I suspect started out at Peterborough.

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There was a later 6M12 20:25 Whitland - Kensington 'milk' which called at Cardiff between 23:44 and 23:59.

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Sundays saw the 6M16 16:00 Whitland - Kensington 'milk' which called at Canton Sidings (opposite the depot) between 18:43 and 18:50 only for a crew change.

This was 'fed' by the Carmarthen based Cl.35 (later Cl.37) duty (B71 or B72 /) that had once worked seven days on the 'milk branches' to / from Pont Llanio, Green Grove , Felin Fach etc.

.

And for good measure, just in case, there was a weekdays 6A15 16:15 Milford Haven - Paddington 'perishables'  which called at Canton Sidings (opposite the depot) between 20:12 and 20:32

Personally, I think this working was a bit 'fishy'

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There were also a brace of Fishguard Harbour - Acton/Paddington 'perishables' which were predominantly for the conveyance of imported Irish beef, in containers.....but, these were reduced once the Menai Bridge was repaired, and traffic drifted back to Holyhead.

 

Brian R

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PS

West Wales 'milk branches' the most neglected, 'under modelled'  area of the GWR / BR (WR) 

Edited February 25, 2021 by br2975

[Mol_PMB]

4 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

This one implies that the tanks were coming from the WR, but whatever the case the vans are interesting. what is the not-SR one? https://www.flickr.com/photos/nigelmenzies/12463491534/in/album-72157639626017906/

 

 

The second, 6-wheel van is an LNER Thompson BZ. A most interesting formation!

[br2975]

52 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

The second, 6-wheel van is an LNER Thompson BZ. A most interesting formation!

Both a  Thompson BZ and LMS BZ  appear in several photos of Southern Region London area milk trains, and IIRC appears in one of the LCGB Coaching Stock books by Messrs Mallaband & Bowles

A Thompson BZ also appears in a 1976 image by Alan Edwards of an MLV + BZ + BG combination at East Croydon.

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Edited February 25, 2021 by br2975

[Nearholmer]

3 hours ago, br2975 said:

West Wales 'milk branches' the most neglected, 'under modelled'  area of the GWR / BR (WR)

 

Is there a decent introductory book about these lines? They are off my mental map, and apart from a decent article in Modern Railways (I think) within the past couple of years, and a book of a railwayman's reminisces, which I read about forty years ago, I know nuffink.

[jonhall]

I wish I'd paid some attention to milk train records when I worked for the MMB, but alas I was more interested in the social club bar... which was GREAT.

 

The MMB (of England and Wales) pretty much had the right to buy every pint of milk produced, it then sold the milk as it saw fit, so if you were a dairy farmer who also owned a dairy, you had to sell your milk to the MMB at one price, then buy it back at a higher one!

 

The MMB's function was to even out supply, cows only produce milk when they have (or are going to have) calves to feed, and the amount they produce will vary seasonally with the quality of what they are fed, which leads to some periods when there is too much, and other times too little. Governments in the 1930's recognised the nations nutritional (and during the war, morale) need to put liquid milk on the table whatever the time of year, and that to achieve that, they also needed to be able to process the excess to cheese or butter in times of plenty.

 

There was immense complexity, all handled by what would have been an army of clerks, and later a state of the art computing section, at Thames Ditton. The basic fixed price was slightly varied with individual farms milk fat/protein/lactose contents, and there were labs all over the country that tested samples of it, it wasn't unknown for unscrupulous farmers to attempt to add water to drive their production volume up, but as it happens that's quite easy to detect, milk always freezes at -6.3°C. The MMB also spent significant resources against maintaining the health of the animal gene pool, tracking breeding lines, and conducting artificial insemination. 

 

The farmers got a predictable price for their milk, and a constant demand (and the promise of a daily collection, come what may), but unfortunately they always felt hard done by, and a fair few would no doubt have cheered when the MMB were abolished. I'm sure some old MMB hands will look at the farmers relationship with the big supermarkets these days, and wryly smile 'be careful what you wish for'.

 

In the context of the above, there would have been a fairly constant base load of milk to town bottling plants, but I imagine there was also significant seasonal traffic, taking it to be churned for butter or cheese, which could well have been in quite large factories, in different locations to the liquid milk dairies..

 

In later years Britain was one of the few members of the EEC that didn't contribute much to the famous butter or cheese mountains, because there was already a process for controlling output.

 

Jon

Edited February 25, 2021 by jonhall

[br2975]

1 hour ago, jonhall said:

 

The farmers ................................................... but unfortunately they always felt hard done by,

Nothing new there then ?

[wagonman]

20 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

I also wonder whether the details varied over time, because when both trips were out, one to Vauxhall/Waterloo with a shunting loco, the other to Morden with a 73, I don’t recall seeing tanks ‘leftover’ at Clapham Junction, as they would have been if there had been an earlier trip to Vauxhall.

 

As in "you drive all ze vay there, and vauxhall ze vay back..."

[DCB]

The awkward thing about modelling milk loading facilities is that the empties tend to arrive at the loading facility just before the fulls are taken away, thus both, or two out of three sets of tanks in the circuit are at the loading facility together. The brake and loco would arrive with the empties and leave with the fulls.  That gets expensive with the cost of stock.    I blatantly ignore prototype operation and my loaded train departs before the empties arrive,  That means I only need one set of tanks not two. Loaded tanks on my late 50s early 60s layout are a 6MT turn running at 60MPH maximum, the empties a 4MT turn at a slower schedule, the 4MT takes the newspaper empties back East as ECS as the next part of its rostered duty.

The stench of stale milk is something else.  In the early 80's my boss accepted a Wedge shaped BL Princess from a farmer as part exchange, 2 years old, one owner from new, sold by us, serviced by us immaculate, but he had transported and spilled milk in it and  it stank to high heaven. The Farmer couldn't smell it himself  We had all the carpets out, cleaned the spare wheel well, air freshener, it was bloody hopeless,  Had to go to auction where it sold for a pittance and he ended up several hundred quid down when he should really have made several hundred quid  on the deal.

I hope we have to wait for a year or two before anyone makes a tank wagon with a suitable odour RTR.

[Nearholmer]

Yep, I've had two bad experiences of 'off' milk:

 

- lid came off bottle in saddle-bag of bike, being a teenager at the time, i didnt wash it thoroghly, and thereafter it stank to heaven and soon went to the tip;

 

- a control room that I used to work at had an  "air-lock" security lobby, with CCTV, interlocking so that only one door could be open at a time, and wailing alarms if either door was open for more than a few seconds. No ventilation, and the floor was a rubber mat. Somebody dropped a pint of milk in there, and tried to clean it up, then used dilute bleach in an attempt to kill the smell, which interacted with the rubber mat. Upshot: stomach-churning stench of rotting milk and rotting rubber, in a space <2m square, forever!

[laurenceb]

14 hours ago, jonhall said:

 

 

 

The farmers got a predictable price for their milk, and a constant demand (and the promise of a daily collection, come what may), but unfortunately they always felt hard done by, and a fair few would no doubt have cheered when the MMB were abolished. I'm sure some old MMB hands will look at the farmers relationship with the big supermarkets these days, and wryly smile 'be careful what you wish for'.

 

 

 

Jon

No farmer that I knew was against the MMB we knew what would happen when it was abolished. And unfortunatly were proved right

[br2975]

2 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

- a control room that I used to work at had an  "air-lock" security lobby, with CCTV, interlocking so that only one door could be open at a time, and wailing alarms if either door was open for more than a few seconds. No ventilation, and the floor was a rubber mat. Somebody dropped a pint of milk in there, and tried to clean it up, then used dilute bleach in an attempt to kill the smell, which interacted with the rubber mat. Upshot: stomach-churning stench of rotting milk and rotting rubber, in a space <2m square, forever!

Very similar to the usual 'call over the air' - - - "don't forget to call at the dairy"

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Two or three 'hurry up' calls later, the bottles would be empty, and there would be a grey puddle in the footwell.

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Funny thing about milk spillages in 'the firms car' - it only started to smell when the person responsible was "on a rest day"

[C126]

May I just thank you all for contributing to this thread, the result being I have assumed my Milk Empties arrive at the siding by the station at around 09.30, and depart loaded for London at around 22.00.  All this is pure phantasy so far, having yet to find the desired milk tanks to buy, but there is no rush...

 

I hope the information has been useful to others as well.  With my best wishes to you all, and thanks again.

[roythebus1]

All this makes me wonder when the empty tanks were cleaned out; at the collection or delivery point? It seems they were never cleaned outside!

[SED Freightman]

7 hours ago, roythebus1 said:

All this makes me wonder when the empty tanks were cleaned out; at the collection or delivery point? It seems they were never cleaned outside!

I would guess they were cleaned at the unloading terminal before the residue dried and became harder to remove, although I wonder if some cleaning agent or water was left in the tank for the return journey so that it could swill around the inside in much the same way that water was put into the clay tanks at Sittingbourne before they were despatched back to Burngullow.

[SED Freightman]

While digging through some SR WTT's for the period 02/05/1977 to 07/05/1978 I came across the following milk services which may be of interest :-

 

6O19 1640 (SUN) St Erth ) to Morden South - Arr. 0430 (EWD)

6O19 0308 (MX) Acton    )

Worked by DL but no headcode shewn so presumably a WR loco.

Ran via West London Line, Clapham Yard (0351-0415), Earlsfield.

 

6019 1703 (SO) St Erth to Morden South - Arr. 0430 (SUN)

Worked by DL but no headcode shewn so presumably a WR loco.

Ran via West London Line, Clapham Yard (0351-0415), Earlsfield.

 

6V05 1500 (SX) Morden South to Acton - Arr. ?

Worked by EDL, headcode G2

Ran via St Helier (run round), Wimbledon, East Putney, Clapham Junction, West London Line.

 

Interestingly there were no return services shewn on SO or SUN.

 

The following services were shewn as 'Train suspended but path reserved for future use', did traffic to Vauxhall ever resume ?

 

6Y26 0936 (EWD) Clapham Yard to Waterloo - Arr.1253

Worked by DSL

Called Vauxhall 0948 - 1248.

 

5Y20 1320 (EWD) Waterloo to Clapham Yard - Arr.1340

Worked by DSL

 

6Y27 0750 (SUN) Clapham Yard to Waterloo - Arr.1107

Worked by DSL

Called Vauxhall 0803 - 1102

 

5Y20 1134 (SUN) Waterloo to Kensington Sidings (Clapham Junction) - Arr.1150

Worked by DSL

[C126]

Thanks to @SED Freightman for the timings.  I came across a photograph in 'BR Diesel freight in the traditional era' - OAKLEY, Michael, Truro : D. Bradford Barton, [n.d.], by F. R. Kerr, of 09 002 pulling a single milk tank and guard's van at Vauxhall (it is a zoom close-up from above, showing only the viaduct and running lines as surrounding).  There is a half-page of text explaining the routing via Waterloo, and how milk, "the aristicrat [sic] of general freight work", receives "special attention everywhere".

 

Just need those OO milk tanks to be delivered from China to purchase a.s.a.p.!

[Rivercider]

This may or may not be useful to the original query, but the Exeter Area local trip booklet 

gives details of the times that the milk depots were shunted with effect from May 1975, with some variation at the weekend. This is obviously in the WR era when milk traffic was attached at Exeter St Davids to the St Erth to Acton service, and not via the SR main line to Waterloo.

 

Chard Junction 15.55 - 17.00 (former SR)

Hemyock  16.19 - 16.57 (former GWR)

Torrington 15.55 - 16.25 (former SR)

 

cheers

 

Edited February 28, 2021 by Rivercider
clarification

[The Stationmaster]

On 25/02/2021 at 15:16, The Johnster said:

The empties for the South Wales job came back down overnight, so were presumably available for collection at Kensington by sometime late in the previous evening.  This suggests that they were at the distribution depots in London for around 16/20 hours before being sent back out to the dairies, if they arrived in the wee hours or early morning.  A different set of tanks must have been working in the circuit, perhaps more than two. to maintain supply.  Day 1, milk collected from farm to processing plant and loaded into tanks, sent up line in the late afternoon or the evening.  Day 2, loaded tanks arrive at distribution depot London end (Kensington, Neasden, Morden, etc) in the very early or ealry morning, emptied by evening and the milk pasteurised and bottled, distributed for delivery, and the empty tanks available for collection by BR.  Day 3, empty tanks collected from London depots and returned to processing plant downline somewhere (Torrington, Whitland, Felin Fach etc).  Day 4, repeat process. 

 

This is conjecture on my part based on what I know of how the trains ran on the South Wales service.  We depostited empties and picked up loaded tanks from Marshfield, brought to the yard by road tankers from the plant half a mile up the road, around mid afternoon.  It implies at least 3 sets of tanks in circuits for each working, and in the days when they were used, at least 2 dedicate passenger brake vans.  The empties came back in freight trains, and the brakes were sent back downline in parcels trains, again circuit working.

 

A feature of milk tanks which happily cannot be modelled (actually, it can but I don't recommend it), is the spillage residue which clung to the outside of the tanks.  It stank.

Actually there were two trains of milk empties to South Wales for many years.  The morning train left Kenny at 11.55 and in the 1966-67 service it ran to Cardiff while the train leaving Kenny after 20.00 ran to whitland.  But things changed over the years thus at one time the late morning/early afternoon train ran to Whitland.   The WR milk working was fairly heftily reorganised in, I think, the early 1960s and I know that in 1968 a lot of milk trains for which Control Office cards existed never actually ran as the cards would come back to the Train Office scored through for the entire week.

 

I can't recall when the Milk Controller's post went in the London Division Control but that was about the mid- late '60s - possibly a little later.  covid aside I still regyl ularly see on e of the last WR Milk Controllers and if I remember when our lunch group gets back together (whenever that is) II'll ask him.   I know him quite well as we first worked together in 1965, then again in 1968/9 (when he was in the London Division Control) then again c.1985-89 when i he was in RHQ oControl and  was the Chief Controllers deputy (but not a Deputy Chief Controller - weird things job titles).

[The Stationmaster]

19 hours ago, SED Freightman said:

I would guess they were cleaned at the unloading terminal before the residue dried and became harder to remove, although I wonder if some cleaning agent or water was left in the tank for the return journey so that it could swill around the inside in much the same way that water was put into the clay tanks at Sittingbourne before they were despatched back to Burngullow.

The last thing any driver wanted was anything swilling about in a train of milk tanks.  One hard brake application and loaded milk tanks would let a Driver forget about it for miles as the darned things alternately plucking and buffering up due to the milk swiling to & fro inside them.

[C126]

28 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

 

...

I can't recall when the Milk Controller's post went in the London Division Control but that was about the mid- late '60s - possibly a little later.  covid aside I still regyl ularly see on e of the last WR Milk Controllers and if I remember when our lunch group gets back together (whenever that is) II'll ask him.   I know him quite well as we first worked together in 1965, then again in 1968/9 (when he was in the London Division Control) then again c.1985-89 when i he was in RHQ oControl and  was the Chief Controllers deputy (but not a Deputy Chief Controller - weird things job titles).

 

If you can get him to 'download his brain' about this work, I am sure I will not be alone in being most grateful!

[caradoc]

57 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

I know him quite well as we first worked together in 1965, then again in 1968/9 (when he was in the London Division Control) then again c.1985-89 when i he was in RHQ oControl and  was the Chief Controllers deputy (but not a Deputy Chief Controller - weird things job titles).

 

My first Control job in Glasgow in 1984 was titled Assistant to the Deputy Chief Controller; The lowest grade in the office and often referred to as the clerk (the salary was between CO2 and CO3 rates). Some of my counterparts on the job however called themselves the Assistant Deputy Chief Controller, which sounded much more impressive !

 

Getting back to milk trains, I recall, although I cannot now find it, a photo in a magazine of the empty Vauxhall milk tanks at Waterloo; The train consisted IIRC of the tanks plus an ex-LMS BG, and was brought into Waterloo by one Class 09 and taken out to Clapham Jc by another, thus changing over the station pilot in the process. 

 

 

[Michael Hodgson]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

The last thing any driver wanted was anything swilling about in a train of milk tanks.  One hard brake application and loaded milk tanks would let a Driver forget about it for miles as the darned things alternately plucking and buffering up due to the milk swiling to & fro inside them.

Not much point in running them unless there is milk swilling about in them in one direction.

Did the tanks have baffles - or would that have resulted in a delivery of butter to Vauxhall? 

[The Stationmaster]

3 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Not much point in running them unless there is milk swilling about in them in one direction.

Did the tanks have baffles - or would that have resulted in a delivery of butter to Vauxhall? 

I had the impression that they didn't have baffles because as I said with a sharp brake application the contents definitely swilled to & fro.  Under normal braking and acceleration it wouldn't be a problem but something like a signal going back to danger and the plucking and buffering up was really serious. 

[Michael Hodgson]

Drivers don't like signal going back in front of them regardless of what the service they're on.

Tendency to need a clean pair of underpants!

[C126]

1 hour ago, caradoc said:

Getting back to milk trains, I recall, although I cannot now find it, a photo in a magazine of the empty Vauxhall milk tanks at Waterloo; The train consisted IIRC of the tanks plus an ex-LMS BG, and was brought into Waterloo by one Class 09 and taken out to Clapham Jc by another, thus changing over the station pilot in the process.

 

It is pl. 103, by "R. E. Ruffell", in Marsden's 'The diesel shunter - a pictorial record', 1981.  Caption: "A rather interesting scene photographed at Waterloo station on 30 June, 1973, when D4114, later 09 026, hauled the daily milk train from Clapham Junction to Vauxhall and thence Waterloo, formed of one GWR milk tank wagon and a BG coach.  D4111, later 09 023, has been attached to the country end to haul this train back to Clapham Junction.  The 09 on the rear will now take up the duties of station pilot."  The BG is certainly not a B.R. Mk. I, but I do not know enough to say if it is L.M.S. or not.  It is in B.R. blue/grey.

 

Interestingly, searching for this turned up another photograph by Ruffell on p. 69 of Pallant and Bird's 'Diesel and electric locomotives of the southern region', 1984.  Caption: "No. 74.001 and empty milk tank at Waterloo in March 1976.  An '08' class shunter normally worked this humble duty."  It is just a tank, and no van.

 

Edited February 28, 2021 by C126
Typo.