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new idea based on reinventing an old idea?


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Think about a world without Lego or Meccano, and you thought up the idea. Now how would you produce it. I think 3D printing would be a good method, but would you still produce the bit, then sell them, or offer the 3D print designs to people to print themselves.

The designs for individual bits would not be complex to print, but would probably have taken some effort to actually design, especially if they involved curves, straights together and angles mixed(I have been working on an idea so know how complex this can be).

Now digital may be best way to get designs out there, but I don't think giving them away is a good idea(apart from a few samples). If they are going to be paid for, how much would you be prepared to pay. Too high and one person buys then gives to everyone else, too low and it is no better than giving away. Get it right, and most will pay, as it would be less hassle than looking for somewhere to get a copy.

Now you would start with enough basic bits to get someone started, and then adapt and add more, so there should be an incentive to buy more design files. If the original designs have been worked out properly, it should not take too much effort to adapt designs, making it easier for the designer.

Now the idea I am actually working on, I don't want to say much, but it is something I have been thinking about for a while,and it is something achitectural which could be adapted for various scales, within limits.It won't be a simple case of just resizing designs, as each scale will need some adaptation.

So how much for that 'Lego' brick design?

Edited by rue_d_etropal
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  • rue_d_etropal changed the title to new idea based on reinventing an old idea?

Simon,

 

There lies the problem,  I don’t think there is any way to stop someone from sharing the CAD files with all their mates and anyone else on the internet.  If there was a way to do that I would be very tempted to sell some of my files for others to print themselves.

 

Cheers

 

Carl

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there is something in some download files to stop it, but nothing will stop it completely. This is why I am working on an system idea, with small designs which can be paid for, but only talking of a small fee for each design. As there will be a large number of designs making up the system I am working on, it will be necessary to 'buy' access to quite a lot of design to build anything(which is why I started with the Lego analagy), and I plan to offer variants of designs so overall it will be worhwhile for me, hopefully.

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I think someone who has been successful in selling designs that you then 'Print' yourself is John Wiffen of Scalescenes fame. He seams to have got the right balance cost wise ?  I know this is card rather than 3D but it shows in principle the method CAN be successful

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Odd thing is, there is nothing to stop people sharing designs, but that does not seem to be a problem.

The other issue is how to offer the downloads. I think some of those offering 2D print files, actually have to respond to orders and send them, but I would prefer them to be downloaded without me having to do anything. Again I assume this is how music , ebooks etc are downloaded.

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There are 3D Repositories out there, Some offer a place to find and download free files, Some offer a Paid service and some combine both. ? If You don't want the hassle yourself it might be worth exploring THAT avenue. Somewhere you can guide customers to where they can see your range and purchase files, Alright nothing is free and the site will take its cut, but it relieves you of the hassle of selling them yourself ?

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I was thinking that that would be the way, just need a good recomendation, based on quality of service, not price. That is why I have been using Shapeways as they take the hazzle of production and delivery for me. I already have my own website, so easy to list items in a way I want them, rather than a 'quick build/slow run/wrong results' way which s the way most database searches work (?) online.

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6 hours ago, rue_d_etropal said:

Odd thing is, there is nothing to stop people sharing designs, but that does not seem to be a problem.

The other issue is how to offer the downloads. I think some of those offering 2D print files, actually have to respond to orders and send them, but I would prefer them to be downloaded without me having to do anything. Again I assume this is how music , ebooks etc are downloaded.

I think John’s products are cheap enough for it not to be a huge issue, and I suspect that’s key. A few quid and people are more likely to take a punt. £20 and you may ask around the club if anyone has it already. £100 and you’ll probably appeal to the internet to try and get one. Whatever ‘it’ is. 

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that is what I am thinking.

2 hours ago, njee20 said:

I think John’s products are cheap enough for it not to be a huge issue, and I suspect that’s key. A few quid and people are more likely to take a punt. £20 and you may ask around the club if anyone has it already. £100 and you’ll probably appeal to the internet to try and get one. Whatever ‘it’ is. 

I am thinking almost giveaway price for each item, but with lots of items, to build something you will need quite a few different items, each one a separate 3D print file which ha to be downloaded.  Just need a reliable safe portal to put them on show.

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I think you need to be able to issue a one time pass key for the file. This could record the ip it’s sent to and possibly only allow the file to be used on the individual IP register. I for one would like to obtain readymade files as a way to increase my use of my printer. I am self teaching 3D design currently a rough Ffestiniog England loco in 7mm and a trolley coin. But for me it’s a slow process and of course I want it all now.... on the subject of the plastic brick my Daughter is a senior chartered engineer for a major mod contractor when graduates join the company the first thing they have to do to see how there skills are is to 3D design a compatible brick.

 

Keith

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Mission Impossible managed it many many years ago and it amazes me that there isn't a "self destructing after use" type of download to prevent file sharing, or maybe there is, or maybe that wouldn't suit the big software companies, like the everlasting car engine doesn't suit car manufacturers.

 

Mike.

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I use sketchfab but my models although 3D printable have a texture component rather than just the obj file and most downloads of them include the texture so I assume it's by 3D artists and designers rather than railway modellers.

 

That said it's a painless process once set up as a seller, though it's not automatic, you need to present a 'portfolio' for consideration first. Money goes into my paypal account automatically.

 

As for people pirating, what can you do really and it really doesn't happen that much if you are a small obscure designer like me

 It's been a 'problem' with created works long before the internet whether it's people lending each other books rather than buying their own copy or recording your mates new acdc album on cassette.

 

I take the view that if someone wants to pirate my stuff that must mean they think it's pretty good, a modern version of  'imitation is the sincerest form of flattery'. but I'm not trying to make a living off it then I might think differently I guess...

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On 27/02/2021 at 09:33, monkeysarefun said:

I use sketchfab but my models although 3D printable have a texture component rather than just the obj file and most downloads of them include the texture so I assume it's by 3D artists and designers rather than railway modellers.

 

That said it's a painless process once set up as a seller, though it's not automatic, you need to present a 'portfolio' for consideration first. Money goes into my paypal account automatically.

 

As for people pirating, what can you do really and it really doesn't happen that much if you are a small obscure designer like me

 It's been a 'problem' with created works long before the internet whether it's people lending each other books rather than buying their own copy or recording your mates new acdc album on cassette.

 

I take the view that if someone wants to pirate my stuff that must mean they think it's pretty good, a modern version of  'imitation is the sincerest form of flattery'. but I'm not trying to make a living off it then I might think differently I guess...

looks interesting, but it is still aimed at market for complete models(complex) rather than a system of simple designs which can be built up by people in real space(Lego style). Minimum prices looks to be 3 dollars, which is near to what I am aiming at.

I would need to be able to check out how their website looks from a designer point of view, as I would want to be able to direct people to my designs directly, as I currently do for Shapeways.

 

When it comes to trying to'copy protect' anything online, that is never going to be completely possible, as all files have a design and computers need that desiggn(file layout and file control info) and in effect string and unstring data, so if you have the info you can get into any file. Most people won't have that info, I don't for files these days, but someone will, and you can't stop them.I think they would be more interested in the complex designs, so hopefully I will not be noticed. Also small simple designs will be of less interest to those who do digital cutting up to make printing easier. I am aiming at the majority of people who just want to press a switch and something is printed, as happens with 2D printing  . Classic KISS.

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I think you are going to need an awful lot of testing to get this to work. 

 

The problem is less to do with the sales side and more to do with the range of possible materials and printers that are likely to be used by your customers. Lego bricks 'work' because they are moulded in ABS to tight tolerances in such a way that the bricks 'grab' each other. I seem to remember some Chinese Lego copies that were moulded in, probably, polystyrene which didn't stick to gather well. 

 

The problem with 3D printing is that there are many different printers with different characteristics and tolerances and each can use a number of different materials. To make your project viable you would have to test as many of the possible combinations of printers and materials you could think of, and you would likely still get some customers complaining because they used system you hadn't thought of. 

 

To answer you question about how musicians and artists deal with online sales, they use a combination of physicality and patronage. For musician this would be doing live gigs and using streaming services, and for artist it would mean sales of prints, books etc plus subscription services like Patreon. Online output then just acts as advertising for saleable product. 

 

I think the real problem that online sales of printable files is not so much that someone will print 200 and supply them to all his friends, but that a Chinese company will see the potential of your product and commercialise it without your knowledge or permission. I believe that this has happen to a number of people who have sold through Shapeways. 

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54 minutes ago, billbedford said:

I think you are going to need an awful lot of testing to get this to work. 

 

The problem is less to do with the sales side and more to do with the range of possible materials and printers that are likely to be used by your customers. Lego bricks 'work' because they are moulded in ABS to tight tolerances in such a way that the bricks 'grab' each other. I seem to remember some Chinese Lego copies that were moulded in, probably, polystyrene which didn't stick to gather well. 

 

The problem with 3D printing is that there are many different printers with different characteristics and tolerances and each can use a number of different materials. To make your project viable you would have to test as many of the possible combinations of printers and materials you could think of, and you would likely still get some customers complaining because they used system you hadn't thought of. 

 

To answer you question about how musicians and artists deal with online sales, they use a combination of physicality and patronage. For musician this would be doing live gigs and using streaming services, and for artist it would mean sales of prints, books etc plus subscription services like Patreon. Online output then just acts as advertising for saleable product. 

 

I think the real problem that online sales of printable files is not so much that someone will print 200 and supply them to all his friends, but that a Chinese company will see the potential of your product and commercialise it without your knowledge or permission. I believe that this has happen to a number of people who have sold through Shapeways. 

 

 

Actually I would look at this from the glass half full position. I think one thing that puts OFF a lot of people from 3D printing is Actually designing what they would WANT to print ! I know I've been tempted but the thought of spending hours sat at the computer trying out a multitude of different design packages to see which one if any I can get my head around and actually produce a workable design puts me right off. BUT I think they have a great future in our hobby and the more reasonably cheap designs that are out there will only encourage more people to get one and have a go ?

 Personally I would be quite happy paying a couple of quid for a file, that I could then print multiple times ( Just as my mention of Scalescenes designs)  The actual printing is reasonably cheap so printing, tweaking, printing again to hone my skills with the printer using a bought file would be a far  better use of my time In my opinion.mAs with Scalescenes kits, there are a miriad of different printers used, probably most printing slightly differently, but each user gets to know Thier own machine, and tweaks scale, colour balance, paper used, until they are happy with the results and then move on to more and more complex kits, adapting, kit bashing as they grow in confidence ? If it was ME I would be buying ONE small file and then practice, practice, Practice until I was happy I was getting the results I wanted

 

As to piracy, well the answer of course is Just don't do anything and no one can steal it ! But this kind of defeats the object doesn't it ? As Simon said small, cheap PARTS that build into a complete kit. If they even come across his designs, Is it really going to be worth the effort to steal all the files re produce and then somehow market them  ?  I would suggest there are far more marketable products out there to steal with a far wider audience

 

Just my thoughts

 

Matt

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19 minutes ago, Mattc6911 said:

As with Scalescenes kits, there are a miriad of different printers used, probably most printing slightly differently, but each user gets to know Thier own machine, and tweaks scale, colour balance, paper used, until they are happy with the results and then move on to more and more complex kits, adapting, kit bashing as they grow in confidence ? If it was ME I would be buying ONE small file and then practice, practice, Practice until I was happy I was getting the results I wanted

 

You've miss the point here. It is the tolerances of the printer/ resin combinations that are important. My printer over-prints ~0.1mm on all xz and yz surfaces, so if I want a 3mm peg to go into a 3mm hole I have to print the peg at 2.8mm ø and the hole at 3.2mm. If your printer over-prints at a different rate the peg either won't go in the hole or the fit will be slack. If you decide to print the hole at an angle and the peg at a different angle things get a lot more uncertain. There is no easy way for people without CAD skills to adjust small parts of a STL file to compensate for these problems. 

 

30 minutes ago, Mattc6911 said:

As Simon said small, cheap PARTS that build into a complete kit. If they even come across his designs, Is it really going to be worth the effort to steal all the files re produce and then somehow market them  ?  I would suggest there are far more marketable products out there to steal with a far wider audience

 

If I have read this idea correctly, it is the way components interact that is the core of this proposal. Just as it is the fit of the pins on blocks into the base of others that is the core basis of Lego. If Simon's ideas are sufficiently innovative then there will be interest from other manufacturers. 

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Well Bill you obviously have FAR more experience in 3D printing than I do and I'll bow to your superior knowledge, All I know is that your comments have put me off even trying !

 

Simon, give up, your doomed to failure :rolleyes:

 

I'm Outa here

 

Matt

 

 

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, billbedford said:

 

 

If I have read this idea correctly, it is the way components interact that is the core of this proposal. Just as it is the fit of the pins on blocks into the base of others that is the core basis of Lego. If Simon's ideas are sufficiently innovative then there will be interest from other manufacturers. 

It does surprise me that companies like Lego have not moved more in the direction of 3D printing. Lego already manufacture i different parts of the world to keep it more local to those markets in those regions, so 3D printing would be an obvious next step for them.

I had wondered if it was better to design something then see if there was interset from traditional companies but think that would be a dead end, so just looking at the design part for now, which only costs me time, which I have enough of at the moment, and I am learning more tricks with each new design.

I already have a couple of items which require parts to interact so adjust make pins slightly thinner than holes. Even them I would expect to do some fettling to printed items. Maybe this is one reason traditional manufacturers are sticking to traditional manufacture.

As I mentioned my designs are for small parts,which look simple but actually involve a lot of mathematics which is something I can do and enjoy.

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3 hours ago, rue_d_etropal said:

It does surprise me that companies like Lego have not moved more in the direction of 3D printing. Lego already manufacture i different parts of the world to keep it more local to those markets in those regions, so 3D printing would be an obvious next step for them.

Given the amount of product that Lego makes, printers just won't be able to cope. Still, once the patents run out, something like this is likely to be useful for small volume manufacturers, such as those making railway models. 

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I can’t see printing ever replacing injection moulding for the sort of mass production Lego are employing. It’s awesome for rapid prototyping or small production runs, but not for mass production IMO. 

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I think that Bill’s observation about the precision of 3D home printing is at the heart of how workable an innovative system might be. I have some new coach chassis designs which have required quite a few adjustments to the hole size for bogie pivots, and the socket aperture for the close coupler. Undersize holes can be reamed so no real problem, but a socket with 13 surfaces is a different matter. Going oversize on the socket solved it. I had a Shapeways credit so printed off a few of the first run file with minimal tolerances in versatile plastic. The result was absolutely spot-on and the added parts just clipped into the chassis. The Shapeways process was better adapted to printing the chassis parallel to the print bed which kept holes and 12 of the 13 socket faces vertical. Inclined printing in resin reduced the hole size and socket size.

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