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new idea based on reinventing an old idea?


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On 28/02/2021 at 23:21, njee20 said:

I can’t see printing ever replacing injection moulding for the sort of mass production Lego are employing. It’s awesome for rapid prototyping or small production runs, but not for mass production IMO. 

can we continue overproducing items in plastic, just in case someone wants it. it is not sustanable .

A shift towards producing to order might be possible for traditional injection molding, but 3D printing would be even better as it could either be done local to market, or by home users. As mentioned there is still a problem with home printing with respect to matching holes and pins, so for the moment I would hae to consider that.

As I suspect the problem is not a software one, it needs more development of the hardware, and only when people say that is more important will manufactures actually fix the problem.

 

Following on from this, just wondering how much undercut can be handled. I can work around it, and that would also help with the pin and hole issue.

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13 hours ago, rue_d_etropal said:

As mentioned there is still a problem with home printing with respect to matching holes and pins, so for the moment I would hae to consider that.

As I suspect the problem is not a software one, it needs more development of the hardware,

I think the issues with hobby/home printing goes a lot deeper than that.

 

Every different brand/model printer has its own characteristics and print tolerances which would need to be accommodated and often compensated for before printing. Any model I create, I do so with the constraints of the printer in mind but virtually anything downloaded from an online repository has to be amended for the printer.

 

There is also the constraint of the material being used, be that filament or resin. Different filaments and resins all have different properties which have to be factored into what you are producing and the material requirements for the purpose intended. Some objects require stability, others flexibility others will fail if brittle etc.

 

Once you have worked through those issues, you need to consider the slicer software being used as it is a critical component in producing an acceptable result. In the case of filament printers, tuning to adjust layers, print speeds etc and with resin printers, constructing an appropriate support structure and optimising print angle etc. In some respects, the slicer software is every bit as complex as the design process.

 

The platform for your idea already exists in GrabCAD where components and projects exist to download for commercial/home printing, either free or paid for, worth a look at as I find it a useful resource.

 

 

Edited by JimFin
To please monkeysarefun :)
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traditional manufacture produces stuff which is then sold, and there can be  a lot of waste when itis not all sold. Some businesses have done quite well ot of this, taking away excess stuff and then selling it 'cheap'. There is also the transport required, which all adds up. Now obviously 3D printing rquires material, but that can be grown(locally).

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8 hours ago, JimFin said:

print angel

 

Thats the Sheila with wings I thank every time I go down to my shed and see a 9 hour print happily suspended from the build plate in all its success. "Thank you print angel" I say.

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11 hours ago, monkeysarefun said:

 

Thats the Sheila with wings I thank every time I go down to my shed and see a 9 hour print happily suspended from the build plate in all its success. "Thank you print angel" I say.


At which my heart leaps with joy!

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I wonder if in the effort to be innovative you might overlook existing options? Have you considered the crowdfunding? I see quite a bit of activity on Kickstarter where people are funding STL file sets for tabletop wargaming and fantasy. They are often companies who then go on to sell more files (licenses, I suppose) on their own websites. The Kickstarter model means the creator gets a guaranteed amount of money by setting the minimum amount to fund the project, and provide incentives through "stretch goals" as the funded amount increases to set levels. The possibility of people "sharing" the files isn't eliminated, nor is the possibilty of an underground resale of printed designs (though most of the KS projects I've looked at also have commercial "licenses" which allow a buyer to legally sell the printed product). If you think of it as a cost of doing business (much like Shapeways taking their cut), the income from the project is guaranteed if the project goes ahead. Create each project with a theme - for example the NER - and include designs for some coaches, wagons, trackside accessories and even buildings, with stretch goals including additional items on the same vein.

 

You'll never eliminate the unscrupulous, but I think you can take heart that the majority who have the ability or local access to 3d printing would be willing to pay for your efforts. I know I would, but I have no desire to go the Shapeways route as I have my own printers, and their postage to Canada is awful.

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22 hours ago, jaym481 said:

I wonder if in the effort to be innovative you might overlook existing options? Have you considered the crowdfunding? I see quite a bit of activity on Kickstarter where people are funding STL file sets for tabletop wargaming and fantasy. They are often companies who then go on to sell more files (licenses, I suppose) on their own websites. The Kickstarter model means the creator gets a guaranteed amount of money by setting the minimum amount to fund the project, and provide incentives through "stretch goals" as the funded amount increases to set levels. The possibility of people "sharing" the files isn't eliminated, nor is the possibilty of an underground resale of printed designs (though most of the KS projects I've looked at also have commercial "licenses" which allow a buyer to legally sell the printed product). If you think of it as a cost of doing business (much like Shapeways taking their cut), the income from the project is guaranteed if the project goes ahead. Create each project with a theme - for example the NER - and include designs for some coaches, wagons, trackside accessories and even buildings, with stretch goals including additional items on the same vein.

 

You'll never eliminate the unscrupulous, but I think you can take heart that the majority who have the ability or local access to 3d printing would be willing to pay for your efforts. I know I would, but I have no desire to go the Shapeways route as I have my own printers, and their postage to Canada is awful.

that would be an idea for more complex designs, mainly for experienced 3d printers, but to really get a lot more people getting a 3d printer which they don't give up on because they find doing all the set up and conversion of files so difficult, it needs something simple, which can actually be used as part of a project. That is why I used the Lego idea as a comparison.

It has been an interesting idea to work through. In many ways designing something simple is more difficult than a complex design, as each part has to fit together in the real world.

I have one more component o work out, probably the most complex, but pretty sure will be the easiest to design.

There will then be a range of components from very simple to print(to get people started), up to more complex ones(but a lot simpler than most of the designs seen on 3d printing sites), but even the simple ones will build into something of interest, hopefully enough to keep interest in 3d printing. 

I have a couple of other ideas, one in effect something I have already designed, and had seriously thought of talking to a manufacturer about injection molding, but with the pandemic getting around not really an option. 

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My ability to deal with complexity has been compromised by a number of factors, but I was able to get this simple coach printed, even though it was frustrating separating the parts as it was originally a single file. Are your coach body designs more complex? I agree the "lego" concept is better, in that a project would be separate parts that could be printed individually or grouped for a single job at the whim of the person doing the printing. The benefit to you of doing something like a Kickstarter/myminifactory campaign is that you will see if you have a customer base that's adequate for providing the return you want, and if it is, you will get paid. It won't be dribs and drabs of file purchases over who knows how long, and people who "buy in" feel a part of the project, and are possibly less likely to "steal" you work.

 

Tooling for injection molding is horrendously expensive, and an up-front cost. Don't do it unless you know you have the customers.

 

Here's the little coach I printed from a file I found on Thingiverse a while ago. It's a OO file I simply reduced to 51.35% to get an N gauge model. The picture shows the attempt I made with FDM, and today's effort with resin.

IMG_2674.jpg

IMG_2672.jpg

Edited by jaym481
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To summarise the machine compatibility issue, are we saying that if you are going to buy a 3d drawing from a supplier, it would be best if one had the exact same printer as the seller and it needs to be configured in exactly the same way to enable a satisfactory print to be made?

To me as a computer era Luddite like me, this is starting to look like VHS/Betamax and DCC "compatibility" issue again.

 

Mike.

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Apart from the fact there are three different processes used in 3d printing, FDM -melted plastic threads, SLA/DLP-light cured liquid resin and SLS-laser melted powder. There is also the fact that there is a huge price range for printer, at least in the first two types. Amateur and prosumer machines will cost from a couple of hundred to a few thousand pounds and professional one will start at about £20k and go up to £250k. They all use the same file formats, but they all have slightly different characteristics.The analogy would not be with video recorders or DCC, but with cameras. Sure you can get OK pictures with a 50 quid camera, but if you want more control over the output you will have to pay a lot more than that. 

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time to reveal my idea.

One of my favourite designs has been the spiral staircase, and I have had requests for slight variations, so have been looking at some way of creating it in modular format. Now if I could make those modules/components easy to print, even for a novice, then it might make a good project for someone.

Iitially Iwas being both too simple(small parts) and complex(too many differnt bits), and fitting them together would be tricky, so had a rethink last noght and simplified design.

Each step made up of a flat plate(completely flat on one side), with supports for corners, again one side completely flat, and no undercuts .

The post are fancy, possibly a bit complex, but a simpler version could be designed.

The handrails are odd shapes so might need some work to get to print.

I plan to also do the steps as flat surface panels so walkways can be assembled(it was this that was making original design far too complex), and the various combinations of walkways and steps can be built. I keep thinking up new ways they can be combined.

Scale wize, these ones are in 1/12th scale. I think 1/6th scale would also be interesting, and could be used to build interesting dioramas fo 1/6th scale figures.  Going the other way, some dimensons will need increasin for smaller scales . 1/18th and 1/24 should be possible, and maybe down to 1/35th scale. Any smaller and it is starting to get difficult to make components that are strong enough to be fitted together, bu assuing components were glued together, then removing the pins and holes from designs migt make to possible.

I think it is better to concentrate on bigger scales.

 

I should add, that I have made a compromise on number of steps. Normal spiral staircases would have 14 steps(which is what I have on my original 3D printed staircase), which is not really so good for modular format, so reduced this to 12, which makes angles a lot easier.

 

 

modular-staircase1.jpg

Edited by rue_d_etropal
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17 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

To summarise the machine compatibility issue, are we saying that if you are going to buy a 3d drawing from a supplier, it would be best if one had the exact same printer as the seller and it needs to be configured in exactly the same way to enable a satisfactory print to be made?

To me as a computer era Luddite like me, this is starting to look like VHS/Betamax and DCC "compatibility" issue again.

 

Mike.

It would depend on what type of file is being sold, but most sellers of files offer STL or similar format, which can then be interpreted by whatever slicing software works best for a particular printer (sidebar for those who are unfamiliar- the slicing software is the application that is used to set up the file for the printer and regulate things like the layer thickness of the print). Printer configuration isn't too hard, and the variations needed between individual prints are generally minimal. Where problems might arise is when the user wants to make changes, such as what I did for the coach in the picture above. As it happens, that one worked fine when reduced from OO to N gauge, but if the original had some finer details or thinner walls, the reduction could make it problematic to print.

 

Back on topic, Simon, I can see how the idea would be good for larger scales. The level of detail that can be achieved would be very high. You could possibly achieve a good result with 1:76 scale, but smaller that that would definitely be better as a single print. So, please tell me if I have this summary of the idea correct:

You would design a model, like the staircase, using a number of separate files to create the various parts to be assembled after printing. The files would be purchased separately by the customer. Am I right in assuming you then mean to offer optional designs for the main components, for example step treads in metal or wood, and variations on bannister design?

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Back on topic, Simon, I can see how the idea would be good for larger scales. The level of detail that can be achieved would be very high. You could possibly achieve a good result with 1:76 scale, but smaller that that would definitely be better as a single print. So, please tell me if I have this summary of the idea correct:

You would design a model, like the staircase, using a number of separate files to create the various parts to be assembled after printing. The files would be purchased separately by the customer. Am I right in assuming you then mean to offer optional designs for the main components, for example step treads in metal or wood, and variations on bannister design?

 

I already have a spiral staircase invarious scales. In 4mm scale I still think complete staircases are better, and they print pretty well onShapeways in WSF, probably better than attempting to print in finer material,although I have done a finer print version.

You are right I could offer different designs, whichwould be an option in future.

I have been giving some thought to how to offer this design, and one of my 'raison d'etres' is something to teach novices how to 3D print, so something like a 'part work' format might work, startin with the step surfaces, then the supports, then the posts, and finally the handrails. Each step has increased complexity and helps build up skills of the person .

Mention 'part woek' on forums like this and sure to get groans, but partworks are based round 2 different ideas. One is purely collecting, one is about uilding. Now it might be possible to do the building without buying the part work collection, but a well designed part workcollection also teaches how to do something, starting from simple up to complex, and that is how I see my 3D print design working.

Complex 3D printed designs look superb, and I think a lot of people get tempted to buy a 3D prin machine to print thes complex designs, then have problems, so give up. The companies producing the machines are happy as they sell more machnes, and it is also compounded by newer better machines being introduced. What is doesn't do is actually drastically  increase number of competant 3D print people.

 

As to how to stop people just copying downloaded files, I have some ideas. They sound OK, but then many of my ideas sound OK when I have just woken up. In a nutshell, it would involve each download copy have a unique security code(s) embedded in it which is also on computer that downloaded it. You would 'buy' security credits and these would then be used when you download the print file . You would only be able to read that file on that computer, but anyone would be able to see those files existed, but if they copied them to another computer, they would not be able to actually access/read them on that computer. Each security credit would have a value, so a simple 3D print might only require one security credit, but a more complex one would require more than one. All the security codes would be embedded, and the chances of duplicate codes, especially the multi ones wold be virtually impossible. Checking codes could be done simply by basic data scanning of files,so the codes could be embedded anywhere. It might also be possible to date limit security credis so you would have to use them within a specified time.

It sounds too simple, but sometime we are trying to find something too complex. It uses ideas based on what was used on some computer systems in the past. There might be such a system already.

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19 hours ago, rue_d_etropal said:

 

Iitially Iwas being both too simple(small parts) and complex(too many differnt bits), and fitting them together would be tricky, so had a rethink last noght and simplified design.

Each step made up of a flat plate(completely flat on one side), with supports for corners, again one side completely flat, and no undercuts .

 

 

I should add, that I have made a compromise on number of steps. Normal spiral staircases would have 14 steps(which is what I have on my original 3D printed staircase), which is not really so good for modular format, so reduced this to 12, which makes angles a lot easier.

 

As a carpenter I shall just comment on Spirals rather than the 3D printing.

 

Spirals are actually very simple, each step has a ring which fits over a centre pole and a post for the handrail which makes them variable to each installation. handrails are bent to shape in situ.

Regarding the number of steps, there is no defined number as it has to suit the floor to ceiling height where installed. This is called the rise with the minimum & maximum rise between steps being 170mm-220mm

 

In 42 years of working I've fitted 4!  They're not that popular as they have a very restricted use.

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9 minutes ago, chris p bacon said:

 

As a carpenter I shall just comment on Spirals rather than the 3D printing.

 

Spirals are actually very simple, each step has a ring which fits over a centre pole and a post for the handrail which makes them variable to each installation. handrails are bent to shape in situ.

Regarding the number of steps, there is no defined number as it has to suit the floor to ceiling height where installed. This is called the rise with the minimum & maximum rise between steps being 170mm-220mm

 

In 42 years of working I've fitted 4!  They're not that popular as they have a very restricted use.

my original design was based on a classic Victorian metal staircase, with what looked like preformed parts. Style wise I think they fit in with traditional gothic design, probably steam punk as well, so from a modelling point of view they could be more interest.

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Without taking this too far off topic. Most Victorian Spirals were in Conservatories and the like which had a Mezzanine.  Victorian dress code precluded their use in lots of situations as too much ankle was on show which lead to ungentlemanly 'urges'

 

For Steampunk think of every possible decoration ....then double it! 

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On 07/03/2021 at 11:50, chris p bacon said:

In 42 years of working I've fitted 4!  They're not that popular as they have a very restricted use.

 

I've seen far too many when looking for a new house. Ridiculous idea in a domestic setting IMHO.

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On 08/03/2021 at 04:50, Crosland said:

 

I've seen far too many when looking for a new house. Ridiculous idea in a domestic setting IMHO.

We bought a house with one in - it was one of the first things that came out!

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I think it is a matter of personal opininion. Some like industrial style architectural items, some don't. It is as simple as that. In some locations the only choice is between a ladder and a spiral staircase.

Also my modular system is far more than spiral staircases, as it includes straight staircase sections, and walkways, and these can be combined . Again not to everyone's taste, but just because one person likes to model one theme and someone else wants to model another, then it is up to them.

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5 hours ago, rue_d_etropal said:

 In some locations the only choice is between a ladder and a spiral staircase.

 

Just to correct a common misconception,  Spiral staircases take up as much room as a 'normal' staircase and are not in anyway spacesaving. 

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