Ray Von Posted February 25, 2021 Share Posted February 25, 2021 (edited) Proud owner of one of these, which arrived this morning: Getting to grips with it ( mods please feel free to redirect if I'm in the wrong place, I can't find a "timetable" sub-forum though.) And I'm hopeful it will help me run an authentic-ish service to my fictional North Kent Coast layout... I thought I'd share some of my initial thoughts - just to confirm that I'm understanding correctly - and questions arising. Firstly, I love the book itself - it's in great condition and doesn't look it's age! Thanks to Gary at "British Railway Books" of Abergavenny. So here's what I've found to talk about: "Passenger, news and parcels ed350" this denotes an electro-diesel loco leaving Victoria at 03:10 and arriving Ramsgate 05:38. My only query arising here is one of ratio, how many passenger coaches to newspaper/parcel vans would there be - and therefore how many to the model rail scale? Secondly, there are some "ECS" - empty coaching stock, going to Frampton (Portsmouth?) "TO" - Tuesday's Only. I'm just wondering what the stop in Margate (16:42) is for? Lastly, there's a nice one coming all the way from Newcastle! A diesel at 07:21: Running only between these dates: Arriving at Margate at 16:20! Apologies some of these pics are sideways. Edited February 25, 2021 by Ray Von Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dungrange Posted February 25, 2021 Share Posted February 25, 2021 7 minutes ago, Ray Von said: My only query arising here is one of ratio, how many passenger coaches to newspaper/parcel vans would there be - and therefore how many to the model rail scale? I don't think you'll find this information in the Working Time Table. I think all the WTT does is define that a service of that description has been allocated a path over the network at the times stated. It may be that the precise formation of a train (particularly freight) would vary from day to day, but the WTT won't show that variation - just that there is a daily path (or whatever the frequency was). To answer your question, you'll probably need photographs, but since it's your railway and it doesn't represent an actual location, I think you can just use what you want. 7 minutes ago, Ray Von said: Secondly, there are some "ECS" - empty coaching stock, going to Frampton (Portsmouth?) "TO" - Tuesday's Only. I'm just wondering what the stop in Margate (16:42) is for? I've no idea why Empty Coaching Stock had a scheduled stop at Margate. Could it have been to pick up crew to start their work in Portsmouth, or alternatively returning crew back to their home depot in Margate? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisH-UK Posted February 25, 2021 Share Posted February 25, 2021 26 minutes ago, Dungrange said: I've no idea why Empty Coaching Stock had a scheduled stop at Margate. Could it have been to pick up crew to start their work in Portsmouth, or alternatively returning crew back to their home depot in Margate? If not for those reasons maybe allowing a higher priority train its path ahead of the ECS 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted February 25, 2021 Share Posted February 25, 2021 The 'Passenger, Papers and Parcels' working is probably a solitary coach, with a variable number of vans (to a total load of 350 tons, hence the three digits after the ED). There are documents called 'Carriage Working Notices' which show what vehicles are planned (diagrammed) for a given working. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted February 25, 2021 Share Posted February 25, 2021 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Fat Controller said: The 'Passenger, Papers and Parcels' working is probably a solitary coach Very likely, since that was standard southern region practice. IIRC, the coaches were often Brake Composites, made redundant from the western section when the ACE ceased to run. They usually contained print workers from fleet street, railway enthusiasts, and very, very drunk people (not totally exclusive categories), and the newspaper sorters would move to the coach for a kip once their work was finished. This article gives a very brief intro, and even contains a photo of newspaper train at Victoria at about your date. https://www.railwaymagazine.co.uk/6311/newspaper-trains-read-all-about-it/ EDs were preferred over 71s on these trains, because they could run on diesel through sections that were switched-off for engineering work, but temporarily 'given up' to let the train run through. I one oversaw a job where we had a deep trench dug across several tracks, and 'gave up the block' for a newspaper train that was then cautioned through at nominal 5mph. Edited February 25, 2021 by Nearholmer 3 3 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Von Posted February 25, 2021 Author Share Posted February 25, 2021 (edited) Cheers Nearholmer, that's a really interesting article! I just assumed they were only vans filled with newspapers, I didn't realise that there were staff inside. Wow! I have two such vans in my stock, looking forward to running them with a purpose now! Edited February 25, 2021 by Ray Von 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Long John Silver Posted February 26, 2021 Share Posted February 26, 2021 I travelled back once on the 03:50, returning from university one Saturday morning in 1977. It was a single coach, standing room only, and many of the passengers were military personnel returning to the Medway Towns. It was often referred to as "the Milk Train" in Sittingbourne at the time. 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted February 26, 2021 Share Posted February 26, 2021 10 hours ago, Ray Von said: Cheers Nearholmer, that's a really interesting article! I just assumed they were only vans filled with newspapers, I didn't realise that there were staff inside. Wow! I have two such vans in my stock, looking forward to running them with a purpose now! In my student days, back in the mid 1970s. my first landlady's eldest son was a packer on the Paddington- Bristol 'Papers'. He used to leave home in Bristol at about 17:00, then pass to London. The stock was stabled at Malago Vale during the day, I believe. He'd get back in around 04:00 the next day. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold young37215 Posted February 26, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 26, 2021 13 hours ago, Ray Von said: there's a nice one coming all the way from Newcastle! A diesel at 07:21: A dated SAGA train, essentially a holiday maker special. If you check the workings in the other direction there will be a return working comprised of the same rolling stock either later that day or possibly the day after. Lots of modelling potential with this. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Von Posted February 26, 2021 Author Share Posted February 26, 2021 12 hours ago, Nearholmer said: EDs were preferred over 71s on these trains, because they could run on diesel through sections that were switched-off for engineering work... I'm going off topic slightly but I'm just doing a bit of research, this turns up class 73-4's as the most likely candidate? I hope so as these (73's by pre-order at least) are available in N Gauge..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted February 26, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 26, 2021 74s never saw significant service on the SED. As Kevin said, on both SED and Central, EDLs (73s) were the usual loco of choice for the paper trains, which were the most closely monitored train of the day, every minute having to be accounted for. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Lurker Posted February 26, 2021 Share Posted February 26, 2021 1 hour ago, Long John Silver said: I travelled back once on the 03:50, returning from university one Saturday morning in 1977. It was a single coach, standing room only, and many of the passengers were military personnel returning to the Medway Towns. It was often referred to as "the Milk Train" in Sittingbourne at the time. yes, and a few years later in Tonbridge/Paddock Wood we used the same term; not that I was ever allowed to even contemplate being out that late....! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Von Posted February 26, 2021 Author Share Posted February 26, 2021 (edited) 23 minutes ago, Oldddudders said: 74s never saw significant service on the SED. As Kevin said, on both SED and Central, EDLs (73s) were the usual loco of choice for the paper trains, which were the most closely monitored train of the day, every minute having to be accounted for. Cheers, and I've just realised how contentious the issue of N Gauge 73's is - seems they've been in "preproduction" at Gaugemaster for a while now, and I can't see a BR Blue on the website, maybe I'll get an older Dapol/Lima off eBay..... Thanks again. Edited February 26, 2021 by Ray Von Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sulzer27jd Posted February 26, 2021 Share Posted February 26, 2021 The Carriage Working Notice (Loco Operated Trains) has the Parcels train as; Victoria 3.10 - Platform 8 1 BSK (MO) 1 BSK 1 BG 1 B 1 GUV 1 GUV - for Dover Priory 2 BG - for Dover Priory 1 BG - Sheerness on Sea The Newcastle set is listed as being 1 BG plus 10 ER Coaches John 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted February 26, 2021 Share Posted February 26, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, young37215 said: If you check the workings in the other direction there will be a return working At some dates. these trains ran strange circular routes to cover the Kent and East Sussex resorts, so the return journey may not be by the same route. IIRC, sometimes the return was via Hastings and Eastbourne, but I wouldn't like to be quoted on that. They were usually 33 hauled on the southern, sometimes one loco with twelve coaches, which is half as many again as a 33 was usually timed for. Just remembered - they have their own thread, although confined to the 1980s, which says that your ECS to Fratton was the SAGA rake going empty, ready to make a return run from Portsmouth, so the jigsaw puzzle begins to fit together. Edited February 26, 2021 by Nearholmer 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sulzer27jd Posted February 26, 2021 Share Posted February 26, 2021 Newcastle to Margate TO sets XC61 and 62 BG (NAV) 5x SK BSK 4x SK Mk1 VAC These worked a variety of duties to Margate, Torquay, Newquay, Portsmouth and Eastbourne. John 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Von Posted February 26, 2021 Author Share Posted February 26, 2021 Thanks again chaps, Forgive my ignorance, I'm relatively "au fait" with most of the abbreviations, but these two have tripped me up: 6 minutes ago, sulzer27jd said: BG (NAV) 19 minutes ago, sulzer27jd said: 10 ER Coaches BG is "Brake Gang-wayed" yes? But the NAV suffix isn't one I've come across as yet. "ER" - I'll stick my neck out and guess "Eastern Region"? If so, would this be a different livery than standard BR Blue/Grey? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium acg5324 Posted February 26, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 26, 2021 N is the type in this case the BG....N is probably for Newspaper. A is the sub type......A version will be the standard type B version will have some modification and so on.... V is the brake type, vacuum in this case. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Von Posted February 26, 2021 Author Share Posted February 26, 2021 (edited) I lifted the following from the thread that Nearholmer recommended, some interesting info, I notice that the Margate service is mainly TSO's but also has Restaurant/Buffet cars, maybe I'll be able to utilise mine after all!: "The following SAGA services / formations were in operation in 1979: 1V87 MO 08:23 Edinburgh - Torquay BSK-SK-SK-SK-SK-CK-CK-SK-SK-SK-SK-BSK 1S84 MO 12:02 Torquay - Edinburgh BSK-SK-SK-SK-SK-CK-CK-SK-SK-SK-SK-BSK 1V84 MO 07:21 Newcastle - Torquay NAV-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO-RU-BSO-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO 1E12 MO 13:35 Torquay - Newcastle TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO-BSO-RU-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO-NAV 1O43 TO 07:21 Newcastle - Margate NAV-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO-RU-BSO-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO 1E12 TO 09:55 Margate - Newcastle NAV-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO-BSO-RU-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO 1O21 WO 07:21 Newcastle - Portsmouth Harbour NAV-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO-RU-BSO-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO 1E12 WO 11:15 Portsmouth Harbour - Newcastle TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO-BSO-RU-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO-NAV 1O21 ThO 13:45 Birmingham New St - Bournemouth BSK-SK-SK-SK-SK-CK-SK-SK-SK-BSK 1M00 ThO 11:08 Bournemouth - Birmingham New St BSK-SK-SK-SK-CK-SK-SK-SK-SK-BSK 1V84 ThO 07:21 Newcastle - Newquay NAV-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO-RU-BSO-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO 1E12 ThO 09:20 Newquay - Newcastle TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO-BSO-RU-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO-NAV 1O43 SO 07:21 Newcastle - Folkestone NAV-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO-RU-BSO-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO 1E12 SO 10:02 Folkestone - Newcastle NAV-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO-BSO-RU-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO Additionally SAGA ran a couple of WR themed services but I don't have the relevant stock details to hand: 1B04 MO 14:48 London Paddington - Torquay 1A53 MO 09:45 Torquay - London Paddington 1B60 ThO 11:34 London Paddington - Newquay 1A69 ThO 08:35 Newquay - London Paddington" Thanks for the link, very useful! Edited February 26, 2021 by Ray Von Typo Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted February 26, 2021 Share Posted February 26, 2021 1 hour ago, acg5324 said: N is the type in this case the BG....N is probably for Newspaper. A is the sub type......A version will be the standard type B version will have some modification and so on.... V is the brake type, vacuum in this case. They're straight-forward TOPS CARKNDS; N is the general class of vehicle, in this case non-passenger-carrying coaching stock A is a Full Brake. This letter would change for different sub-types, and things like permitted maximum speeds; NNV for a Newspaper Packing Van V/A/B and X indicate the brake type fitted. These replaced the old BG/CCT/GUV type codes, which were not always consistent (CCT and GUV seemed to be almost interchangeable). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted February 26, 2021 Share Posted February 26, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Ray Von said: service is mainly TSO's but also has Restaurant/Buffet cars, maybe I'll be able to utilise mine after all! If you pick the right year - in other years it was SKs, and no feed-trough. The market that these trains were aimed at probably spent barely any money in the buffet, and a restaurant would have been beyond their imagination - this was the carefully-packed sandwiches, flask of tea, and a quarter of boiled sweets to last the day generation. Edited February 26, 2021 by Nearholmer 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted February 26, 2021 Share Posted February 26, 2021 6 minutes ago, Nearholmer said: If you pick the right year - in other years it was SKs, and no feed-trough. The market that these trains were aimed at probably spent barely any money in the buffet, and a restaurant would have been beyond their imagination - this was the carefully-packed sandwiches, flask of tea, and a quarter of boiled sweets to last the day generation. The SAGA trains weren't for day trippers. A Folkestone hotelier by name of De Haan had noticed that bookings at his , and other, hotels were falling as families were taking holidays abroad. Meanwhile, there was little provision for older people. He realised that BR had spare coaching stock available mid-week. He came up with a mid-week to mid-week 'package', with through trains from the North that avoided the need to drag luggage across London. Hence the once-a-week working from Newcastle to Margate. Saga is still around, though nowadays dealing mainly in foreign holidays, insurance and financial services for the 'more mature'. It's probably the biggest single employer around S E Kent, though it has reduced numbers significantly in the last year. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted February 26, 2021 Share Posted February 26, 2021 1 hour ago, Fat Controller said: The SAGA trains weren't for day trippers. I'm well aware of that. My point was those of the generation that had lived through at least one world war, and in many cases both, generally had frugal habits, and most probably didn't have the wherewithal to splash out on a restaurant car meal, even on the way to/from holiday. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivercider Posted February 26, 2021 Share Posted February 26, 2021 5 hours ago, Ray Von said: Thanks again chaps, Forgive my ignorance, I'm relatively "au fait" with most of the abbreviations, but these two have tripped me up: BG is "Brake Gang-wayed" yes? But the NAV suffix isn't one I've come across as yet. "ER" - I'll stick my neck out and guess "Eastern Region"? If so, would this be a different livery than standard BR Blue/Grey? The 1978 TOPS Wagon Code Guide shows:- NA Brake Van Bogie Gangway (Your NAV is a vacuum braked version of this) NB Brake Van Brute NC Brake Van News ND Brake Van Gangway dual heated 90mph NE Brake Van Gangway 100mph cheers 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hodgson Posted February 26, 2021 Share Posted February 26, 2021 2 hours ago, Fat Controller said: The SAGA trains weren't for day trippers. It used to be said the SAGA stood for "Send All Grannies Away" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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