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WCML coach formations circa early Eighties.


InterCitySpud
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On 28/02/2021 at 01:05, hexagon789 said:

The Oxford representation is correct, the red stripe stopped mid-coach. I think your probably thinking of HST TRUBs where the red stripe finishes where the seating started.

 

Generally the in earliest Mk3 days the Mk3s were booked to run en bloc but with Mk1 full brakes and catering vehicles, from about 1979/80 the sets tended to be booked as more mixed formations. Certainly use of a Mk2F FO was usual in Glasgow sets in the early 1980s between First Class Mk3s and the catering vehicle being used as the restaurant car and often one Mk2F TSO would appear at the end.

 

110mph came from May 1984, at first just two diagrams but from May 1985 all Euston-Glasgow were timed for 110mph so the sets became all Mk3 bar a full brake.

 

110mph running was not extended to other WCML services until May 1989.

So to model a Glasgow service circa May 1984 a full set of MK3as with a Mk1 BG 3xFO RUB 5xSO Class 87 with correct pantograph of course!

 

So who models the most accurate MK1 BG for 110mph working, assuming it would be  commonwealth bogies? Also which services would generally use a MK1 RKB? Currently the most difficult catering vehicle of the time to represent.

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Hallo,

You mentioned 1984, so this may help with formations of long distance services, although this was filmed further north, so the 'Splitter' at 5m52 would not feature on your layout. Notice that 85s were still permitted.

 

The local ones for your chosen area would be 310s.

 

This has been a favourite of mine for years 10yrs or so, you may know it already.

 

May help with your project

 

Es grüßt 

pc

 

 

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13 minutes ago, Padishar Creel said:

Hallo,

You mentioned 1984, so this may help with formations of long distance services, although this was filmed further north, so the 'Splitter' at 5m52 would not feature on your layout. Notice that 85s were still permitted.

 

The local ones for your chosen area would be 310s.

 

This has been a favourite of mine for years 10yrs or so, you may know it already.

 

May help with your project

 

Es grüßt 

pc

 

 

Pure joy! Thank you, I had never seen this video before.  Just as I remember from the time although this was obviously a lot further north.

 

South of New Street/Coventry we were never lucky enough to get cross country sets or HSTs, although I may run a HST under the wires on few occasions for the Holyhead route, although that never happened until after the 80s. Modellers licence!

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5 minutes ago, InterCitySpud said:

Pure joy! Thank you, I had never seen this video before.  Just as I remember from the time although this was obviously a lot further north.

 

South of New Street/Coventry we were never lucky enough to get cross country sets or HSTs, although I may run a HST under the wires on few occasions for the Holyhead route, although that never happened until after the 80s. Modellers licence!

 

There are a couple of shorties of NEA-FO-FO-RUB-5xTSO, 87s with both X-arm and BW, and even a Motorail (presumably) with GUVs between the loco and the NEA

You're lucky in 00 to have an RB, still waiting for one in N. Missing MK2D BFK in both 

 

es grüßt 

pc

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6 hours ago, InterCitySpud said:

So to model a Glasgow service circa May 1984 a full set of MK3as with a Mk1 BG 3xFO RUB 5xSO Class 87 with correct pantograph of course!

 

So who models the most accurate MK1 BG for 110mph working, assuming it would be  commonwealth bogies? Also which services would generally use a MK1 RKB? Currently the most difficult catering vehicle of the time to represent.

 

The first BG with CW bogies (923xx) was converted in December 1985. They were only ever 100mph NEX and allocated to parcels services. The 110mph rated NHA were all B4 bogies.

 

In addition to the Manchester Pullmann services, RKB were on stock on peak services where they needed to serve a lot of full meals in as short as time as possible e.g. services to/from north of Stafford but not not likely cross border.  They may have been used as maintenance spares. Only 11 made into 1983.

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14 hours ago, rodent279 said:

Agree. It's a bit like OHLE equipment.

Yes & some other common examples which annoy me..

PIN number

PAT testing

AC current / DC current - I remember my physics teacher discouraging this at school & told us that if we ever heard him say either, we should respond "Crackerjack".

Several weeks later, he said it & someone responded as requested. After a moment's pause, we all realised what had happened & the entire class (including the teacher) burst out laughing.

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15 minutes ago, Bomag said:

 

The first BG with CW bogies (923xx) was converted in December 1985. They were only ever 100mph NEX and allocated to parcels services. The 110mph rated NHA were all B4 bogies.

 

In addition to the Manchester Pullmann services, RKB were on stock on peak services where they needed to serve a lot of full meals in as short as time as possible e.g. services to/from north of Stafford but not not likely cross border.  They may have been used as maintenance spares. Only 11 made into 1983.

 

The ride in NHAs at 110mph was apparently very rough, which is why no passenger carrying Mk1s were permitted to run above 100mph.

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8 hours ago, InterCitySpud said:

So to model a Glasgow service circa May 1984 a full set of MK3as with a Mk1 BG 3xFO RUB 5xSO Class 87 with correct pantograph of course!

 

So who models the most accurate MK1 BG for 110mph working, assuming it would be  commonwealth bogies? Also which services would generally use a MK1 RKB? Currently the most difficult catering vehicle of the time to represent.

Almost - would be Mk1 BG (NHA) with B4 bogies, 2 Mk3A FO (not 3), Mk3A RFB (RUB with upclassed seating), 5 Mk3A TSO.

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11 minutes ago, hexagon789 said:

Almost - would be Mk1 BG (NHA) with B4 bogies, 2 Mk3A FO (not 3), Mk3A RFB (RUB with upclassed seating), 5 Mk3A TSO.

 

For May 84 there were 2 RFB (10015 and 10018) in IC livery the rest were still listed as b/g RUB. I don't think the 110mph BG were formally redefined as NH until late 84, before then they were NE with special maintenance. There is a lack of photo evidence so anything of the period is useful, particularly anything 110mph rated in blue grey.  

 

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47 minutes ago, Bomag said:

 

For May 84 there were 2 RFB (10015 and 10018) in IC livery the rest were still listed as b/g RUB. I don't think the 110mph BG were formally redefined as NH until late 84, before then they were NE with special maintenance. There is a lack of photo evidence so anything of the period is useful, particularly anything 110mph rated in blue grey.  

 

Thanks, that makes it a touch easier as I don't really want to go further with my catering vehicles than MK1 RBR, Mk3 RUB and the other two MK1 buffets used at the time 1980-84ish although as I mentioned they are a little harder to come by than just opening a box!

 

I'm not too sure when they started classifying the RUBs? I know they always had first class seating but when introduced no first class designation. I'm happy to concentrate my time period to before the yellow band and RFBs were introduced.

 

I often saw full MK3 sets (other than the BG/NH) with a MK2e/f BSO on the northern end, were any of these rated 110mph or were these just other destinations and not on 110mph workings I wonder?

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1 hour ago, Bomag said:

 

For May 84 there were 2 RFB (10015 and 10018) in IC livery the rest were still listed as b/g RUB. I don't think the 110mph BG were formally redefined as NH until late 84, before then they were NE with special maintenance. There is a lack of photo evidence so anything of the period is useful, particularly anything 110mph rated in blue grey.  

 

From what I understand, only one Mk3A was repainted in IC at launch with the May 1984 timetable. Through the course of 1984 more and more vehicles were turned out. So in the early months at least the 110mph sets would be mostly blue/grey coaches.

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18 minutes ago, InterCitySpud said:

Thanks, that makes it a touch easier as I don't really want to go further with my catering vehicles than MK1 RBR, Mk3 RUB and the other two MK1 buffets used at the time 1980-84ish although as I mentioned they are a little harder to come by than just opening a box!

 

I'm not too sure when they started classifying the RUBs? I know they always had first class seating but when introduced no first class designation. I'm happy to concentrate my time period to before the yellow band and RFBs were introduced.

 

I often saw full MK3 sets (other than the BG/NH) with a MK2e/f BSO on the northern end, were any of these rated 110mph or were these just other destinations and not on 110mph workings I wonder?

No Mk2s were passed for 110mph. They could only just about get away with the braking distances having the one tread braked Mk1 BG in the set as I understand it.

 

As I said previously from May 1984-May 1985 only two Glasgow services each way were 110mph timed, the other sets used were still booked with the odd 2F. From May 1985 when all the Glasgow workings became 110mph then only dated, relief and workings terminating at the likes of Preston, Lancaster or Carlisle would have Mk2s. You also had The Clansman which was usually all Mk2 until 1985/6 when it became Mk3 for a brief period.

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3 minutes ago, hexagon789 said:

From what I understand, only one Mk3A was repainted in IC at launch with the May 1984 timetable. Through the course of 1984 more and more vehicles were turned out. So in the early months at least the 110mph sets would be mostly blue/grey coaches.

That's a relief and thanks for dating the introduction of IC livery. I'm not really interested in mixed rakes but an ex-works something would be acceptable to be around at the time, if I get tempted by something shiny!

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4 minutes ago, InterCitySpud said:

That's a relief and thanks for dating the introduction of IC livery. I'm not really interested in mixed rakes but an ex-works something would be acceptable to be around at the time, if I get tempted by something shiny!

Hmm, the idea of a single shiny-as-a-new-pin vehicle standing out in a set of work-worn coaches appeals to me too! :)

 

I'm fairly certain that it was about early 1984 that IC first started appearing on the WCML; I think some 87s upgraded to 110mph running were painted first for the 110mph launch before coaches were similarly treated so that by the timetable change just one vehicle had been treated. 

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3 minutes ago, hexagon789 said:

Hmm, the idea of a single shiny-as-a-new-pin vehicle standing out in a set of work-worn coaches appeals to me too! :)

 

I'm fairly certain that it was about early 1984 that IC first started appearing on the WCML; I think some 87s upgraded to 110mph running were painted first for the 110mph launch before coaches were similarly treated so that by the timetable change just one vehicle had been treated. 

Yes that works for me as I really want to keep the period early eighties.

 

Fully ex works, shiny picked out springs, gloss black bogies, orange jumpers etc! Maybe even just tempting in a siding? It would stand out too as I weather almost everything BR Blue, has to be prototypical!

 

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16 hours ago, hexagon789 said:

Hmm, the idea of a single shiny-as-a-new-pin vehicle standing out in a set of work-worn coaches appeals to me too! :)

 

I'm fairly certain that it was about early 1984 that IC first started appearing on the WCML; I think some 87s upgraded to 110mph running were painted first for the 110mph launch before coaches were similarly treated so that by the timetable change just one vehicle had been treated. 

April 1984, 87012 inside Willesden shed being repainted into IC livery.

87012_WN_May1984_1

The finished product.

 

https://flic.kr/p/mg3TR4

 

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8 hours ago, Padishar Creel said:

And of course don't forget APT in a shortened Formation

 

es grüßt 

pc

 

 

Thanks again, another video I've not seen! Certainly a Glasgow rake after the APT (with an IC BG)

 

The planned layout is basically a very large 69' 3" foot oval to a scale mile with the two return ends hidden, if that make sense! So both exposed sides will be around 24'-25' feet with prototypical curves so the new Hornby APT is definitely part of the plans at a later date once I've completed the full standard sets for all my ACs.

 

With the space available I would be tempted to go for a longer APT now Hornby are producing the extra coaches they didn't with their first release.

 

I used to live just a few paces from the WCML near Roade cutting and can clearly remember the excitement when we knew the APT was due through. I also managed to see it from the station platform at Wolverton once, what a sight coming around that bend! Just wish i had been into photography back then!

 

Although I'm concentrating mostly on air con stock that went into Euston, I'll also need a 10 coach MK1 formation for the peak Northampton "Cobbler" services.

 

I gave away all my rolling stock back in 1988 so I'm starting completely afresh so need to buy upwards of 30 coaches and why I'm getting a little help from here!

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11 hours ago, hexagon789 said:

No Mk2s were passed for 110mph. They could only just about get away with the braking distances having the one tread braked Mk1 BG in the set as I understand it.

 

As I said previously from May 1984-May 1985 only two Glasgow services each way were 110mph timed, the other sets used were still booked with the odd 2F. From May 1985 when all the Glasgow workings became 110mph then only dated, relief and workings terminating at the likes of Preston, Lancaster or Carlisle would have Mk2s. You also had The Clansman which was usually all Mk2 until 1985/6 when it became Mk3 for a brief period.

 

@hexagon789 thanks for the explanation. Tell me, was there a particular reason why Glasgow used to get the 87s and Edinburgh 86s? As I understand it the 86 was upgraded to 110MPH and so should have been interchangeable with the 87, but the 'rule' seemed to be applied with almost religious devotion.

 

Until the twilight year or two of locomotive operation on WCML, I'd never seen an 86 with MK3s. Likewise I don't think I ever saw an 87 go to Edinburgh. (though quite frankly I don't think ANY AC should have gone to Edinburgh- I really rather miss the run out from Carstairs with a Brush 4.)

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6 hours ago, Derekstuart said:

 

@hexagon789 thanks for the explanation. Tell me, was there a particular reason why Glasgow used to get the 87s and Edinburgh 86s? As I understand it the 86 was upgraded to 110MPH and so should have been interchangeable with the 87, but the 'rule' seemed to be applied with almost religious devotion.

 

Until the twilight year or two of locomotive operation on WCML, I'd never seen an 86 with MK3s. Likewise I don't think I ever saw an 87 go to Edinburgh. (though quite frankly I don't think ANY AC should have gone to Edinburgh- I really rather miss the run out from Carstairs with a Brush 4.)

I don't believe the 86s were upgraded to 110mph, except possibly the three 86/1 that were on 87 bogies.  With all the problems of track damage caused by the 86s, I think the last thing they would want would be having them run faster!  

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10 hours ago, Derekstuart said:

 

@hexagon789 thanks for the explanation. Tell me, was there a particular reason why Glasgow used to get the 87s and Edinburgh 86s? As I understand it the 86 was upgraded to 110MPH and so should have been interchangeable with the 87, but the 'rule' seemed to be applied with almost religious devotion.

 

Until the twilight year or two of locomotive operation on WCML, I'd never seen an 86 with MK3s. Likewise I don't think I ever saw an 87 go to Edinburgh. (though quite frankly I don't think ANY AC should have gone to Edinburgh- I really rather miss the run out from Carstairs with a Brush 4.)

 

The 86 rated to 110mph (1989) were 101-103, 209, 224-225, 231.

 

As far as I am aware there were very few ICWC services to Edinburgh, they were generally ICCC - so once the line from Carstairs was wired you would get ICCA sector locos. Since Class 87s were allocated to IWCA and 86s to mostly IEBA (Brum) and ICCA this is the reason why 87s may have predominated to Glasgow and 86 to Edinburgh.

 

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