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WCML coach formations circa early Eighties.


InterCitySpud
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Thanks  @Edwin_m and @Bomag

 

I thought there were more 86s upgraded than that- thanks for the correction. I've been in the cab of an 86 doing over 100, so I assumed all the 86/2 had been so treated.

 

Speaking of the wires from Carstairs- I don't suppose you remember exactly where they stopped before through wiring, do you? I seem to recall it being near the first left bend by the old Mid Calder Junction- but whether on it, before it, after it, I cannot recall.


Thanks again.

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10 hours ago, Derekstuart said:

 

@hexagon789 thanks for the explanation. Tell me, was there a particular reason why Glasgow used to get the 87s and Edinburgh 86s? As I understand it the 86 was upgraded to 110MPH and so should have been interchangeable with the 87, but the 'rule' seemed to be applied with almost religious devotion.

 

Until the twilight year or two of locomotive operation on WCML, I'd never seen an 86 with MK3s. Likewise I don't think I ever saw an 87 go to Edinburgh. (though quite frankly I don't think ANY AC should have gone to Edinburgh- I really rather miss the run out from Carstairs with a Brush 4.)

 

The ill-fated 86211 running though Nuneaton on a MK1/MK3 rake, in July 1986. I have another somewhere of 86245 on Mk3 stock in December 1985, but I can't find it at the moment.

86211_Nuneaton_12071986

 

Edit:- found it. At least one vehicle is a MK3.

 

86245_Norton_Bridge_23121985

 

Edited by rodent279
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Seen quite a few trains so by memory appearred to be 10 or 12 vehicles, this is all early 80s

 

87 BG TSOx4/5 Buffet FOx4/5

 

BG B4 bogied NEA

TSO/FO 3A like Jouef

Buffet RB like the Mainline model or a RBK (15xx numbered one, Comet sides, or whole kit)

 

86/2 with similar but mainly 2F rather than 3A

 

2F do tend to occasionally replace 3A in 87 rakes.

 

I am building a Lima 87, bashed BG, Jouef 3A/Lima 2F Comet RKB set

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6 hours ago, Padishar Creel said:

Hallo,

Hope you do not mind yet another clip, this time Rugby 1984

es grüßt 

pc

 

 

Thanks again, this is a wonderful video, Rugby as I remember!

 

I have seen all these fantastic videos from Roy Harrison and I think this video emphasises perfectly not only the time period but also the coach formations I wish to model.  As almost all formations at the time were mixed blue/grey MK1,2&3 my question was which manufacturers, Hornby/Oxford/Bachmann actually look most convincing in a mixed rake?

 

To be accurate it's obviously Bachmann MK2f + Oxford MK3a and that's almost certainly the route I will go but I have just a small nagging doubt about the profile running together, height, colour, window recesses etc. For me this is most important when running full length 8-11 coach formations. It may be travesty to some but I could live with the wrong roevacs and removing the 125 etc from the Hornby MK3 if they look most convincing in a long rake by using the same manufacturer.  I really wish I was not 1000's miles away from a shop so I could line some up to be sure. Its a lot of buying blind I will be doing!

 

As I've mentioned before, so sorry if I'm repeating myself, but I've always wanted to model this location (southern end WCML) and time (1980-84) but have never been able to do so, having to scratchbuild all that OHLE, lack of decent ACs and stock so its been the lure of the diesels up to now but the Bachmann Class 85 kicked off this renaissance, Heljans new tooled 86 and SLWs new 25/3(wow) is just going to fit just perfectly and with promising news regarding wires its time to start!

 

From this video I can see there's still some missing links, a decent MK2b for occasions and of course the biggest problem of all, the ubiquitous Class 310. I'm going to need at least 3 sets!

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A little bit before the OP's time period, but relevant to this thread, if you search on Flickr for 86235 on the Royal Scot, June 1975, you should get a photo of said combo, showing the Royal Scot pre-mk3. It's all mk2e/f with a MK1 buffet of some description, and a mk1 bg.

 

a_Hillmorton Class 86 86235 Euston to Glasgow The Royal Scot June 75_J4355

 

 

 

On a slight, but related, tangent, the above photo shows 86235 with domino headcode. I don't think many other 86's got dominoes, I know from Flickr that 86251 was another. Does anyone have a definitive list?

Edited by rodent279
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On 02/03/2021 at 08:29, Edwin_m said:

I don't believe the 86s were upgraded to 110mph, except possibly the three 86/1 that were on 87 bogies.  With all the problems of track damage caused by the 86s, I think the last thing they would want would be having them run faster!  

 

I thought their track damage issues were solved by the mid-late 80s when the last of them received Flexicoil suspension & SAB wheels?

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13 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

I thought their track damage issues were solved by the mid-late 80s when the last of them received Flexicoil suspension & SAB wheels?

I think "reduced" would be a better word than "solved". They still knock 7 bells out of the track, just not so much.

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28 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

Were the 87s much different though? Were their motors bogie-hung rather than axle-hung or something?

Yes, class 87 motors were fully springborne, driving the wheels through a cardan shaft that runs through the axle. It's very similar to the arrangement used in HST's.

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Fascinating thread this. I’m going to spend some time later checking the differences on my mk1 catering vehicles later tonight. Visually the Mainline RBR and Bachmann RU seem to be minimal, but I haven’t been inside for a beer on either of them!

 

I’m also intrigued to know if you can actually buy any Bachmann mk2f TSOs at the moment, certainly in blue grey.  Very happy to be pointed in the direction of a supplier with stock! 

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On 02/03/2021 at 21:51, MJI said:

Seen quite a few trains so by memory appearred to be 10 or 12 vehicles, this is all early 80s

 

87 BG TSOx4/5 Buffet FOx4/5

 

BG B4 bogied NEA

TSO/FO 3A like Jouef

Buffet RB like the Mainline model or a RBK (15xx numbered one, Comet sides, or whole kit)

 

86/2 with similar but mainly 2F rather than 3A

 

2F do tend to occasionally replace 3A in 87 rakes.

 

I am building a Lima 87, bashed BG, Jouef 3A/Lima 2F Comet RKB set

I do remember buying a few Jouef MK3as when they were first released, good coaches but for me if I remember the blue was a little lighter than the Airfix MK2s and the excellent Mainline RBR. I preferred running with amended Lima Mk3s as they looked a little more convincing in a mixed rake despite being HST variants.

 

This is why now the time is right as it was far too difficult to model this region accurately in 1985 although as you pointed out Jim's Birmingham New Street is an inspiration to us all. I hope my rakes when completed would look at home rolling into platfrom 2 on his layout!

 

Really interested in anyone's experience of building the Comet RKB though. An important coach for the time to complete the catering stock and I would be very interested in putting one together. Ive attached a picture of a very chilly one between two MK3a's.

 

I'm also tempted to fill windows and add a counter to the Bachmann RB. (There's a thread on it here somewhere) I'm slightly surprised they haven't produced their model in the updated version too as they were extremely prominent throughout the 80's.

 

The Oxford MK3a RUB and the Hornby M1RBR are pretty much ready to go but there's still a lot of proper modelling required to complete the catering offerings.

 

 

Mk1 RKB.jpg

Edited by InterCitySpud
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16 hours ago, rodent279 said:

A little bit before the OP's time period, but relevant to this thread, if you search on Flickr for 86235 on the Royal Scot, June 1975, you should get a photo of said combo, showing the Royal Scot pre-mk3. It's all mk2e/f with a MK1 buffet of some description, and a mk1 bg.

 

a_Hillmorton Class 86 86235 Euston to Glasgow The Royal Scot June 75_J4355

 

 

 

On a slight, but related, tangent, the above photo shows 86235 with domino headcode. I don't think many other 86's got dominoes, I know from Flickr that 86251 was another. Does anyone have a definitive list?

Great shot! Hilmorton, so just south of Rugby near the canal just before the Northampton loop rejoins. I was only 4 years old then but probably watched it go past a few minutes earlier in absolute awe!

 

A little early yes as I want MK3s involved but it does emphasise the area I'm interested in, south of Rugby and stock into Euston only. All cross- country, NW/SW had disappeared by then. Sorry cant help with the dominoes! The buffet looks very much like an RBR though.

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M15xx so RKB so no RTR model

 

I will be using Jouef 3a because I have 5 or so, only 1 Lima (may sell) and nearly 2 rakes of Hornby HST, I do have 2 Lima 2F I want nowhere near my Airfix models both are slightly inaccurate* but put them together and them you understand.

 

All will be Laserglazed and similar.

 

Most of my stuff is WR but one rake was NW SW and swapped from ETH Peak to 86 at BNS, my 87 set is going to be a scratch 2F 3A set with BG and RKB as that fits with a few I saw.

 

I will be doing basically a double track main line no stations just for my small collection of WCML electrics.

 

* Get past the glazing (use Laserglaze) and the body proportions are different, Lima too short (2mm or 4mm can't remember), and too tall on body side (1mm), bogies not good, the gangways.

 

Airfix turn under not good, gangways need modifying, but less to do.

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3 hours ago, rodent279 said:

Are you going to try to do an accurate cobbler rake?

Yes, certainly plan to have a rake of MK1s for the peak Cobbler services. The Bachmann roarer was made for just this job!

I travelled on them a few times and from memory usually around 9-10 coach rakes of open seconds, a couple of composites and full brake, sometimes a BSK in there too. All will need super weathering as I never saw a clean rake!

 

Again no creep into IC livery or NSE, only grubby blue /grey for me.

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10 hours ago, InterCitySpud said:

I'm also tempted to fill windows and add a counter to the Bachmann RB. (There's a thread on it here somewhere) I'm slightly surprised they haven't produced their model in the updated version too as they were extremely prominent throughout the 80's.

 

 

 

The Bachmann is the RU (19xx), built without a counter.  I think Hornby now do an RB (16xx,17xx) which were built with counter. I am not certain what the RU in 00 is like but the early version of the Bach/GF RU they did as per the 1980's (including IC); when they retooled it  they only did the early version.

 

In terms of numbers there were something like 99 RBR(ex RB) and 23 RBR (ex RU). Given the allocation in the mid 1980's, on WCML services there was a split of about 25% ex RU and 75% ex RB

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3 hours ago, Bomag said:

 

The Bachmann is the RU (19xx), built without a counter.  I think Hornby now do an RB (16xx,17xx) which were built with counter. I am not certain what the RU in 00 is like but the early version of the Bach/GF RU they did as per the 1980's (including IC); when they retooled it  they only did the early version.

 

In terms of numbers there were something like 99 RBR(ex RB) and 23 RBR (ex RU). Given the allocation in the mid 1980's, on WCML services there was a split of about 25% ex RU and 75% ex RB

That would seem about right to me, certainly more of the built to suit RBRs of the Hornby/Mainline variety than of the refurbished RU.

 

I think, from hazy memory, I sat briefly in an Eastern region RU behind 55010 in 1980, it had no fixed seating but real wooden dining chairs. So more civilised!

 

The most obvious difference I can tell, is from the kitchen side. The RBR has a pantry door and a kitchen door, however the refurbished and counter added RB(R) RU have no pantry door but a kitchen door between the kitchen windows. I've mocked one up very badly to illustrate. I'm still probably getting something wrong somewhere!

bachmann buffet conv- .png

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I’ve been looking at the RBR from RU conversion too, as until yesterday I thought they were externally the same. I think you’re correct in your assessment that two windows and a door need plating over on the kitchen side. I don’t think any alterations are necessary on the corridor side (you can only see my layout from one side so there’s a cheap solution possible). 


I’ve found a couple of pictures of 19xx in the mid eighties on Flickr. The top one is the best I can do on the corridor side. The bottom one seems to match your mock up. 
 

I also never realised that there was inconsistencies in which came first, buffet or restaurant. 

 

Mk1 Buffet 19890700 @ Newton Abbot-1

 

 

M 1966

 

 

 

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These are not my photos so I do apologise but they do illustrate perfectly the two Mk1 buffets with seating (so excluding the RKB) that were used into Euston at the time.

 

Your top photo is corridor side of a 16xx or 17xx. The correct 19xx can be found below.

 

Very handily, the black and white shows both together, kitchen sides, the colour demonstrate the differences corridor side. You can now see what needs altering to make the Bachmann accurate.

 

Despite Bomags perfect explanation, I'm still slightly confused over the classifications and what went on where, all I know is I need these two buffets!

Screenshot_2021-03-05 Mk1 RBR M1710 M1965.png

Screenshot_2021-03-05 Mk1 RBR M1962.png

7548553582_ceb23a3570_b.jpg

Edited by InterCitySpud
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46 minutes ago, MJI said:

Top 2 modify Bachmann RU

Bottom 1 either new Hornby RB or old Mainline RB

Does the Hornby RB have a close coupling system compatible with the Bachmann 2fs?

 

The Mainline model looks a little dated next to the Bachmann now, but still stands up remarkably well for the age. Its lack of close coupling will ultimately see its demise on my layout. 

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18 minutes ago, 61656 said:

Does the Hornby RB have a close coupling system compatible with the Bachmann 2fs?

 

The Mainline model looks a little dated next to the Bachmann now, but still stands up remarkably well for the age. Its lack of close coupling will ultimately see its demise on my layout. 

 

No idea about the couplings, I am using a mix of Keen and manually closer coupled. Too much of my stuff is from years ago. I have over 20 Airfix aircons and are building Mark 1s using old Triang as a base simply because a lot cheaper and the basic dimensions are accurate. Replica flush glazing is great

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1 hour ago, 61656 said:

Does the Hornby RB have a close coupling system compatible with the Bachmann 2fs?

 

The Mainline model looks a little dated next to the Bachmann now, but still stands up remarkably well for the age. Its lack of close coupling will ultimately see its demise on my layout. 

The Hornby RB does not have a close coupling system, the couplings are bogie mounted.

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