A question about HOn30 in the UK?

[Keith Addenbrooke]

29 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

Hmmm I think that covers the oft modelled lines but there were actually a lot of small carriers in the early days that got swept away in the post WW1 era by trucks with the earlier spread of affordable road transport so were gone a long time before widespread photography. There were hundreds of small mining and logging operations that were very similar in style to the uk mining lines and a few small common carriers too in Maine and on the west coast where 2-3ft suited the budget. There’s an encyclopaedia of US narrow gauge I used to have and it was an eye opener of how many there were and there were so many useful inspirations for lines using the Bachmann stuff in On30. 
The book has relatively few photos so not really a modellers book but it does illustrate the variety that I knew nothing about previously. 

I don’t have a copy of Hilton, but Tony Koester gives it a strong recommendation in his Kalmbach Guide to (US) Narrow Gauge Modelling as the reference book to go for.

[PaulRhB]

3 minutes ago, Keith Addenbrooke said:

I don’t have a copy of Hilton, but Tony Koester gives it a strong recommendation in his Kalmbach Guide to (US) Narrow Gauge Modelling as the reference book to go for.

It’s certainly interesting but a bit dry on direct modelling inspiration. It does show how little we know about the smaller common carriers though under the shadow of the big NG systems. I found it more useful as a source to search the net for more info. 

[Nearholmer]

4 hours ago, Stoker said:

US and Canada didn't really have the quaint little Calthrop style narrow gauge common carrier railways that we think of as "narrow gauge" in the UK,

 

Yes they did, in Maine. OK, 24", rather than 30", gauge, but ideal inspiration for H0n30.

 

A layout that I always liked was this one https://www.modelrailroadacademy.com/video/travelling-bob-haydens-carrabasset-and-dead-river-railway-010814/# A few years old now, but the logic behind it is timeless.

 

As a side thought, it isn't that hard to scratch-build or kit-bash for H0n30, and I used to do so when I still had eyesight that could withstand the stress of such small components. An easy place to start is boxcars: I made mine by taking a suitably dimensioned block of hardwood, and gluing to it a skin of "scribed siding", plus a roof, then cracking-away with detailing. The bogies were commercial items, and I glued bolsters to the underside of the block, then simply screwed them in place. To create a Forney 0-4-4T, I used an N-gauge 0-4-0 switching engine with a tender as the basis, retaining not much more than chassis and boiler-casting, and one bogie from the tender, and building the rest in plasticard and brass.

 

The positive thing about US NG equipment is that it is all very simple shapes, except for carriage roof ends, nor cunning curly bits, so it is a lot easier to scratch/convert/bodge than a lot of British stuff!

 

If you want to stay exact to gauge, and want big networks, try Mexico, which had extensive lines built with US money, using US kit, which were in service until quite recently. For sheer wackiness this Mexican funeral train would take some beating 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/57492396@N04/5620555773/

 

 

 

Edited June 2, 2021 by Nearholmer

[Keith Addenbrooke]

On 02/06/2021 at 14:12, Nearholmer said:

 

Yes they did, in Maine. OK, 24", rather than 30", gauge, but ideal inspiration for H0n30.

 

A layout that I always liked was this one https://www.modelrailroadacademy.com/video/travelling-bob-haydens-carrabasset-and-dead-river-railway-010814/# A few years old now, but the logic behind it is timeless.

 

As a side thought, it isn't that hard to scratch-build or kit-bash for H0n30, and I used to do so when I still had eyesight that could withstand the stress of such small components. An easy place to start is boxcars: I made mine by taking a suitably dimensioned block of hardwood, and gluing to it a skin of "scribed siding", plus a roof, then cracking-away with detailing. The bogies were commercial items, and I glued bolsters to the underside of the block, then simply screwed them in place. To create a Forney 0-4-4T, I used an N-gauge 0-4-0 switching engine with a tender as the basis, retaining not much more than chassis and boiler-casting, and one bogie from the tender, and building the rest in plasticard and brass.

 

The positive thing about US NG equipment is that it is all very simple shapes, except for carriage roof ends, nor cunning curly bits, so it is a lot easier to scratch/convert/bodge than a lot of British stuff!

 

If you want to stay exact to gauge, and want big networks, try Mexico, which had extensive lines built with US money, using US kit, which were in service until quite recently. For sheer wackiness this Mexican funeral train would take some beating 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/57492396@N04/5620555773/

 

 

 

To add to @Nearholmer’s post if I may, for those with access to Model Railroader back issues, the Carabassett and Dead River (C&DR) built by Bob Hayden and Dave Frary was in the Nov ‘79 MR, with a second part on the cover and inside the Feb ‘80 MR.

 

Hayden’s plan to build a new C&DR was in the Nov ‘81 MR.  An artist’s rendering of his waterfront scene (inspired by Wiscasset) remains one of my all-time favourite model railroad images - one of those I never forget.  Hayden’s ‘finished’ model (which I think stayed true to his plan) was featured on the cover and inside the Sept ‘98 MR

 

I think Hayden and Frary had built a couple of models in HOn2 1/2 (as it was known then) prior to all this, which appeared in Railroad Model Craftsman (RMC) but I don’t have the details.  I believe one may have been called the Elk River?
 

In terms of scratchbuilding, these are the components for my half-term project build: a simple open wood-sided freight car:

 

I’ve got some Peco GR-106 (009) trucks (bogies) with integral NEM pockets and narrow gauge couplers to fit underneath.  As I’ve said elsewhere - if I can do it, truly anyone can!

Edited April 9, 2022 by Keith Addenbrooke

[PaulRhB]

The Frary and Hayden articles are all online somewhere as I have pdfs saved off the net. 
Here’s one of the later ones. 
http://www.hon30.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/CDR-1998-Sept.pdf

 

[PaulRhB]

Ok here’s the archive, click on the title “Ride the Carrabassett” etc and that takes you to another page with a link to each article. 
http://www.hon30.org/category/articles-ramblings/

 

[Nearholmer]

That's a memory stirrer!

 

After my H)n30 efforts, I built a fairly large H0 exhibition layout depicting a Maine waterfront, and robbed the colours of their 'Smith Bros. Fish' building for my 'Deepwater Towing' tugboat company.

 

Has Narrow Gauge & Shortlines Gazette been mentioned yet? It is fairly Colorado biased, but does contain a lot of very good modelling advice, and probably every second or third edition contains sub-3ft material of interest.

[Keith Addenbrooke]

I think I can safely say that the inspiration for my little freelance freight car attempt comes from the layouts such as the C&DR - I’m  just waiting for the glue to dry and then I can finish the painting and add the trucks:

 

 

Scratchbuilding is new for me: the aim of this build was to see how I get on with coffee stirrer technology, as I’ve got a bundle of 1000 to try some buildings with.

The main problem is coffee stirrers are 5mm wide (ideal perhaps for On30, but please don’t tempt me).  I scored them down the middle before painting to give 2.5mm planks (still quite wide at 8.5” to scale), but the first layer of paint almost filled the score lines.

 

I think I’ve also rather over-engineered the sub-frame trusses for this type of basic freight car - perhaps it was originally built as something else?  I’m just having fun experimenting 

Edited April 9, 2022 by Keith Addenbrooke

[Nearholmer]

You're on a roll!

 

A simple way to make the trusses is to do them as a sub-assembly on a piece of thin ply or plasticard. Put the two cross-beams on, then add the truss-rods using bent wire - the real things are probably only 1" diameter, so it can be thin, fine elastic thread might even work. On the real thing there are several truss-rods across the width of the car.

 

If you want to get fancy, you can buy invisibly tiny plastic castings for the turnbuckles that go in the centres of the truss-rods to tighten them up.

 

I found it a lot easier to get everything square on the sub-assembly than by working direct on the car.

Edited June 2, 2021 by Nearholmer

[Stoker]

 

4 hours ago, PaulRhB said:

There were hundreds of small mining and logging operations that were very similar in style to the uk mining lines

Yes I did already mention industrial systems which is where I feel HOn30 has its greatest potential. However one important distinction I'd make is that UK industrial tended to be much smaller in stature and length on average, being more of the temporary Simplexes and Rustons variety, while North American industrial had locos more in the 10-20 ton plus range. There was some smaller stuff of course, which in the early days was often referred to as the "baby gauge", but for the most part what they called a "small locomotive" would've by UK narrow gauge standards been considered to be on the larger side. Good case in point would be the 12 ton Plymouths at Statfold Barn, which dwarf practically everything else in the shed, if not by length at least in every other direction.

One of my absolute favourites in the HOn30 industrial category is this superb layout that somewhat follows the Hayden & Frary ethos, but to my eyes pulls off a much more believable appearance.

[Stoker]

4 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Yes they did, in Maine

Not really mate... maybe a passing similarity but even the shortest of the Maine "two-footers" would've been among the longest narrow gauge railways in mainland Britain. The SR&RL was equivalent in length to driving from Big Ben to Bristol via the M4. They were proper rough and ready real railways, that people relied on for their survival, not the biscuit tin Victorian curiosities of old Blighty.

Do what you want though mate! Rule number one! Slap a balloon stack and cowcatcher on Prince and call it a day if that's what suits you! The only person you rob is yourself.

[peach james]

Yes, one can get some quite big 2' gauge locos...
 

It's a 93 000 lb 0-4-0 on 2' gauge.  16 000 lb Tractive Effort...

 

[Nearholmer]

19 minutes ago, Stoker said:

Not really mate... maybe a passing similarity but even the shortest of the Maine "two-footers" would've been among the longest narrow gauge railways in mainland Britain

The Kennebec Central was five miles long, which even by English standards is exceedingly short.

 

Offensive I can handle; plain wrong is more difficult to shrug off.

[Stoker]

The Kennebec was also the exception and not the rule. It was built to serve a community of civil war veterans. Plenty of those around in Britain eh?

Like I said, think whatever you want, the only person your ignorance robs is yourself.

[Nearholmer]

Probably best we leave it to “the court of RMWeb” to decide which of us has given the more convincing testimony of our own ignorance and general crassness.

[PaulRhB]

There’s no need to be so high handed about slapping balloon stacks on etc, why not try a polite argument with facts and links rather than sarcasm? 

Most British lines were mainly serious industrial operations not curiosities, some with some small common carrier functions bolted on like the Festiniog and Talyllyn. 
3ft dominated in the US because that’s what you could buy off the shelf in those areas so they often built with the larger gauge because their ambitions outdid the reality of joining up with the bigger systems. Maine was established in 2ft and while they were a eventually a bigger system they’d never that flush with money that they’d consider wholesale upgrading as they expanded so they stuck with the gauge.  
Much of what inspires our models is the film, cartoon and theme park image and there’s nothing wrong with modelling that because modelling is about evoking memories of that fiction as well as Finescale reproduction and they can and should live side by side. Frary & Hayden really postulated what ifs especially Bob Hayden. 

I’m slowly modelling ‘serious’ Colorado in O and fictional F&C in HOn30 to scratch both itches so yes I have stick ‘silly’ balloon stacks on some!

 

 

 

 

 

[009 micro modeller]

1 hour ago, Stoker said:

They were proper rough and ready real railways, that people relied on for their survival, not the biscuit tin Victorian curiosities of old Blighty.

 

I think some of the people who lived alongside remote parts of the Ffestiniog or sent their cattle to market on the Welshpool & Llanfair might have disagreed with the implication that they didn’t rely on their local NG line for their survival.

 

However, you mentioned previously that 30” was much more common on industrial railways in the US. Really, the same is true for UK NG lines - there weren’t as many common carriers as there are in model form, most people building them are freelancing and most British NG lines were actually for industrial use. Would a similarly freelance (or prototypical but industrial) approach work for US H0n30?

 

 I don’t know whether it applies in the same way in H0, but I seem to remember reading that the Bachmann 0n30 range was something of a compromise, designed to take advantage of the more common 16.5mm gauge (whereas proper 0n2 or 0n3 would require hand-built track - I know that standards and probably some items already exist to help with this but it’s not quite the same).

 

Are the Chivers H0n30 kits (or successors to them) still around at all?

[PaulRhB]

1 minute ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Are the Chivers H0n30 kits (or successors to them) still around at all?

Oh yes in fact the freight stock is due this month and locos later in the year hopefully. 
Now under Matt Chivers guardianship as Roger has taken a step back from production although he’s playing with ideas still. 
it will appear here when it ready. 
https://www.five79.co.uk/009-Narrow-Gauge-Kits/

 

 

[PaulRhB]

Matt’s update on timescales. 

[009 micro modeller]

4 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

There’s no need to be so high handed about slapping balloon stacks on etc,

 

Apologies, it seemed too good an opportunity to resist posting this:

 

 

 

Moving swiftly on...

 

6 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

3ft dominated in the US because that’s what you could buy off the shelf in those areas so they often built with the larger gauge because their ambitions outdid the reality of joining up with the bigger systems

 

Wasn’t 3ft also generally what was available in Britain, prior to WW1?

 

Regarding the Minitrains F&C stock, I’m pretty sure it is literally based on a cartoon. Still looks better than the original Egger ‘Western’ loco. Or you could have a go yourself, as seen here: https://www.egger-bahn.de/english/workshop-03.htm

[Stoker]

36 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Probably best we leave it to “the court of RMWeb” to decide which of us has given the more convincing testimony of our own ignorance and general crassness.

Good lord mate this is a model railway forum, sounds like you've completely lost perspective. "The court of RMweb" really! How overdramatic and silly. 

Come on mate you're better than that. Now let's get back to helping this chap with his models, shall we? I'm sure he's heard quite enough comparisons about how the great untamed frontier of Victorian Maine was really just like the rolling hills of sheep-strewn Wales!

The real crime here is that I linked to this fantastic piece of HOn30 work 3 posts ago and not a word has been said about it...

[Nearholmer]

Its a cracking layout.

 

Perhaps the OP might be tempted to model the Monson RR, a 2ft slate-hauler and common carrier in Maine, at just over 6 miles long it would be more compact than the Festiniog at something over double that length. 

[Stoker]

30 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Would a similarly freelance (or prototypical but industrial) approach work for US H0n30?

Well that was my point in my original post, there were so many of these systems across North America (which to be clear, includes Canada, USA, and Mexico) and so many went under the radar, that you have that "plausible deniability" so to speak. So 20th century US industrial narrow gauge is in my opinion one of the most broad subjects in it's creative scope... it's just such a great canvas, and HOn30 allows you to fit a huge amount in a small space.

Another favourite of mine that I've not really seen very much of at all, is TTn3, which uses 9mm gauge track and 3mm scale to represent true 3 foot gauge. I've thought for a while now that Walthers slightly underscale blast furnace would be "just right" at 3mm scale, and an excellent focal point for a typical 3 foot gauge steel plant railway. Judicious use of a 3D printer with some N scale mechanisms would make it a very accessible niche.

Edited June 2, 2021 by Stoker

[PaulRhB]

38 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Regarding the Minitrains F&C stock, I’m pretty sure it is literally based on a cartoon.

It’s based on the Joe Works models the only connection with the Fiddletown & Copperopolis cartoons is really the name  The F&C cartoons are based on the real Colorado 3ft too so the locos featured are a mix of older 2-8-0’s and 4-4-0’s. If you like US ng though they are rather fun  

[Keith Addenbrooke]

Just had a catch-up.  I’ve not come across Nick Pautler’s layout before (referenced above).  Very good.
 

Very useful to see the Five79 video from Matt Chivers (I’d heard the HOn30 range was set for relaunch, but not the timescales).  Given various issues with importing to the UK these days, a UK-based range could be really useful.

 

My threads and questions don’t tend to generate much debate, but I think common ground has emerged in that a degree of freelancing (which I’m quite happy with) opens up numerous possibilities for US narrow gauge, with the Maine two-footers as a good start point.  I think that’s a conclusion I’m happy with.  Keith. 

Edited June 2, 2021 by Keith Addenbrooke