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early BRITISH RAILWAYS loco decals


Guest Jack Benson
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Guest Jack Benson

978A942C-F849-4A6C-90CF-2F0F5BB45ADE.jpeg.6f15766fabbd4d8b8c5eb62a5c1f8332.jpeg
 

At the start of BR, some locomotives carried BRITISH RAILWAYS on the tender or tank sides, I cannot seem to find a source of 4mm/12” decals for this these words. 
 

Any ideas? Thank you

 

StaySafe

 

 

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If you want the Western Region GW style Egyptian Serif ‘BRITISH RAILWAYS’ used between 1/1/48 and 31/5/48, these can be found on the HMRS GWR loco and coach insignia sheets.   The Sans Serif BRITISH RAILWAYS lettering was used between 1/6/48 and 30/9/49, at which point the unicycling lion emblem came into use.  
 

Does anyone know where I can source 4mm scale ‘Grotesque’ GWR lettering, as used at Caerphilly Works between 1942 and 45?

 

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As Phil mentioned, Fox transfers do sell them. I've found 3 transfers on their website. they are originally intended for van sides but they could be used on locomotives. 

 

https://www.fox-transfers.co.uk/british-railways-large-lettering-for-van-sides-70518

https://www.fox-transfers.co.uk/british-railways-large-lettering-for-van-sides

https://www.fox-transfers.co.uk/british-railways-small-lettering-for-van-sides

 

Hope this helps

 

James

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Guest Jack Benson

OK, lots of rabbit holes, mosty dead ends.

Those from Fox Transfers are only suitable for 3mm and 2mm because they are too small for 4mm locos. HMRS are out of stock at both Eileens and HMRS with no forecast for restocking, CCT don't sell these items but Modelmasters offer G201 Large sheet of B.R steam loco lettering & numbering, in stock and order placed :D

 

g201.jpg.4d49e054963ba33006f36c2bfbaf2cad.jpg

 

Yes, I am a happy bunny, Welsh Cakes for tea and am wearing a daffodil for St. David's Feast Day.

 

Thanks to everyone who offered help, much appreciated.

 

StaySafe, StayIndoors

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That's odd, Fox definitely do make the right size and style BRITISH RAILWAYS lettering for M7 side tanks because I have used them in the past.  They are described as LNER style for some reason though but the lettering is correct.

30241b.JPG.7328e9c906f442451d74fd9503fe3e6e.JPG

30243d.JPG.83c6a40e5cb97a7a35fb004b3b1f9305.JPG

 

Good luck with your order with Modelmaster....

Edited by John M Upton
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Guest Jack Benson
23 minutes ago, John M Upton said:

That's odd, Fox definitely do make the right size and style BRITISH RAILWAYS lettering for M7 side tanks because I have used them in the past.  They are described as LNER style for some reason though but the lettering is correct.

Good luck with your order with Modelmaster....

That is odd, they denied offering them on the other hand they also denied offering Southern National decals in 4mm,,,,,,,,,,and yes, I certainly need good luck.

I ordered a spare set from Fox FRH4000 either 92 or 10", please note that Fox apologise but the filters of their website do not function correctly thus giving false readings but a 'phone call aways works.

Edited by Jack Benson
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They are LNER style, in the sense that BR adopted the LNER Gill Sans lettering as standard in June 1948; I believe this was in accordance with lettering used for all the British Transport Commissions businesses, and included British Road Transport and British Waterways.  It was a modern art deco style icon and had been since before the war; Gill was a gifted artist and stylist but a horrible man, a ####### bully who sexually abused his daughters, considering this his right as their father.  It is a shame that he made a lot of money out of the LNER and the BTC, but one cannot deny the attraction of the lettering, or the ease of reading it.  The 'BRITISH RAILWAYS' lettering in the unicycling lion and the ferret and dartboard emblems is also Gill Sans.

 

I will investigate the possibility of having the GWR 'grotesque' transfers made as a commission from Fox.  They are needed for my 2721 pannier, 2761, withdrawn from Tondu 31/3/50 and photographed on the reception roads at Swindon in  August of that year.  The loco is dirty, but not so as to obscure the livery, which is Caerphilly Austerity Grotesque Black, no sign of BR smokebox number plates or shedcode plates ever having been fitted, and retaining GW buffer beam numbers.  Once this is done, and fluted coupling rods fitted to replace the fishbellies on the Bachmann 57xx chassis, I will probably have done as much as I can to work this loco up;  I've fitted new chimney, dome, and safety valve cover, recovered from a scrapped Westward 64xx, new buffers, lamp bracket irons, cab floor, crew, real coal, and spectacle plate glazing, as well as Railtec number plates.  Oh, and a new cab roof and whistles are needed as well.  She runs in 'drophead coupe' mode, with a canvas weather sheet made from alu foil.

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On 01/03/2021 at 13:39, John M Upton said:

They are described as LNER style for some reason though but the lettering is correct.

The LNER (London and North Eastern Railway) used the Gill Sans lettering and BR (British Railways) adopted it. This is probably the reason why they are described as LNER style. Most "big four" and BR standard steam locomotives carried the words "BRITISH RAILWAYS" on their tender\tank sides at some point in their lives before scrapping or preservation. 

The new numbers that locomotives received under BR which they carried on their cab sides and smokebox door were also in this lettering. I'm pretty sure the shed codes were too. 

 

However, I am unaware if any locomotive, other than new build Peppercorn A1 60163 Tornado (top) and Peppercorn A2 60532 Blue Peter (bottom) has carried "BRITISH RAILWAYS" while in preservation. 

 

 

Tornado.jpg.98642f80ae05245420b8daf43b9f7408.jpg

 

image.png.104336f3c4be7bc0b9a9e1043e5b0e12.png

 

 

 

Edited by 6990WitherslackHall
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On 01/03/2021 at 13:12, Jack Benson said:

OK, lots of rabbit holes, mosty dead ends.

Those from Fox Transfers are only suitable for 3mm and 2mm because they are too small for 4mm locos. HMRS are out of stock at both Eileens and HMRS with no forecast for restocking, CCT don't sell these items but Modelmasters offer G201 Large sheet of B.R steam loco lettering & numbering, in stock and order placed :D

 

 

 

 

 

Don't hold your breath.

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4 minutes ago, philsandy said:

 

Don't hold your breath.

I think that's a little unfair. Yes, MM can be slow in delivering, but a phonecall goes a long way to speeding things with Jim. I ordered some from him over Christmas and he rang me to say they were on the way. Took about 3 weeks, but I experienced a friendly and helpful service 

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Guest Jack Benson
3 hours ago, 21C1 said:

Early Ex SR locos had the lettering in 'Sunshine' style.  This should be on the HMRS SR Bulleid sheet.

Please look at the first image,

 

Thank you

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5 hours ago, 6990WitherslackHall said:

Most "big four" and BR standard steam locomotives carried the words "BRITISH RAILWAYS" on their tender\tank sides at some point in their lives before scrapping or preservation. 

Not quite, Witherslack.  Only Big 4 designs that were repainted or outshopped new between 1/1/48 and 31/9/49, the first 6 months of which period saw them being lettered in whatever style the previous company used.  Gill Sans was of course used for locos coming out of former LNER workshops as that had been the previous style.  The unicycling lion was used on locos outshopped post 1/10/49.  This is of course subject to the provision that the grade of overhaul included repainting; not all did.  By the time the first of the BR standard locos, Britannia, emerged from a paintshop in 1951, the unicycling lion was well established and what Britannia carried both in her initial plain black livery and in fully lined out green shortly afterwards.

 

No BR standard ever carried Gill Sans BRITISH RAILWAYS lettering, and those built after 1958, all 9Fs I believe, never carried the unicycling lion either; they were given the ferret and dartboard emblem used at that time.  I have no figures but I would guesstimate that about a third of large tender locos and more like a quarter of tanks carried any form of BRITISH RAILWAYS lettering.  Overhauls were done on a mileage run basis and tank locos tend to rack up mileage more slowly than the big main line beasts; an A4 or Coronation would require shopping more frequently than a 61xx or 2P, which would in turn as a generalisation accrue mileage more quickly than a Jinty or Pannier. 

 

Many locos would have 'missed out' on liveries altogether, going straight from their last big 4 livery to unicycling lion, or even Big 4 style early BR to ferret and dartboard.  We are used nowadays to the idea that branding is important, and of stock being rapidly given new liveries and  logos when it changes ownership or when a rebranding occurs, but in those days repaints into new liveries were only done when the loco came up for it's mileage based full overhaul.  This had been practice for many years, and was not simply a result of the parsminoney enforced by the post-war austerity economy, which lasted until 1951. 

 

Livery changes, only applying to locos having full overhauls or brand new locos, were instituted on the dates instructed by head office dictat at Marylebone, 'The Kremlin'.  There was no 'using up of old transfers, the change occurred on the date stipulated.

 

It is one of the reasons that I model this particular period, as the variety of liveries for locos and stock is fascinating and a lot of fun.  I make it a rule that no two locos of the same class carry the same livery, but all can justifiably run together.  Other livery variations, such as red background number plates on WR locos, can be incorportated to faclilitate this as well.  Fun!

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13 hours ago, 6990WitherslackHall said:

The LNER (London and North Eastern Railway) used the Gill Sans lettering and BR (British Railways) adopted it. This is probably the reason why they are described as LNER style. Most "big four" and BR standard steam locomotives carried the words "BRITISH RAILWAYS" on their tender\tank sides at some point in their lives before scrapping or preservation. 

The new numbers that locomotives received under BR which they carried on their cab sides and smokebox door were also in this lettering. I'm pretty sure the shed codes were too. 

 

However, I am unaware if any locomotive, other than new build Peppercorn A1 60163 Tornado (top) and Peppercorn A2 60532 Blue Peter (bottom) has carried "BRITISH RAILWAYS" while in preservation. 

 

 

Tornado.jpg.98642f80ae05245420b8daf43b9f7408.jpg

 

image.png.104336f3c4be7bc0b9a9e1043e5b0e12.png

 

 

 

 

In preservation?

 

43924. 47324 and 44932 did. I'm sure there are others.

 

https://preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com/43924-lms-3924-br-43924/

 

https://preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com/47324-lms-16407-lms-7324-and-br-47324/

 

https://preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com/44932-lms-4932-br-44932/

 

Apart from LMR and SCR the other region's locomotives didn't get shedcode plates until late 1950 when the BRITISH RAILWAYS logo had been more or less discontinued.

 

As an aside I think 45337 is the only locomotive to have carried LMS style BRITISH RAILWAYS lettering in preservation. It's even ran with it's M5337 identity. I think the only preserved locomotive to carry a prefix number apart from Bulleids (obviously).

 

https://preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com/45337-lms-5337-br-45337/

 

https://driver-john.com/2011/08/19/other-things-i-have-driven-1-ex-lms-stanier-black-five-m5337/

 

 

Jason

Edited by Steamport Southport
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