Looking Brighter at Llangollen

[neal]

Late to the party on this one, absolutely gutted.  I hope they can pull through.

 

From happier times whilst staying at Berwyn...

 

[papagolfjuliet]

I note that the Trust has put all three of its steam engines - 7754, Austin No.1, and Jennifer - on the market. https://www.therailwayhub.co.uk/59551/llangollen-railway-plea-to-save-welsh-heritage-line/

[papagolfjuliet]

Two of the Llangollen-based LNER carriages have joined the LNERCA's collection and will be moving to Embsay: http://www.lnerca.org/home/news-and-updates/?fbclid=IwAR365y00_Fuaw3oVfMUc1aNykM4DDcne5fSdb1nh__gTtA7WuaxPSaAbpU0

 

In addition, the PLC-owned items which are to be auctioned have been listed here: https://www.lsh.co.uk/assetadvisory/online-auctions/llangollen-railway-plc-auction?fbclid=IwAR1_-TCAfLfAxsa_8ZhB86TkGDXjMbdUO8LR9Q4fPmcCiIo7YejFKkqiFEo

 

NB: The 'Mk. 3A' is actually a Mk.1 on 3A bogies, and the 'Class 13' is ex-ICI English Electric Class 11 lookalike 'Davy.'

Edited April 16, 2021 by papagolfjuliet

[woodenhead]

How many coaches are at LLangollen, losing 10 Mark 1s is going to hurt unless the Trust is going to successfully bid for them.

 

The rail borne plant will also be missed.

[papagolfjuliet]

6 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

How many coaches are at LLangollen, losing 10 Mark 1s is going to hurt unless the Trust is going to successfully bid for them.

 

 

By my reckoning the remaining operational Mk.1s consist of three suburbans and seven corridor coaches, which should be enough to maintain the LlR's usual two train service. I dare say the DMUs could also be used as hauled stock in warm weather, much as the NYMR used to do with its Gloucester units.

Edited April 16, 2021 by papagolfjuliet

[AMJ]

Most DMU's have heaters that do not need the engine running.  We used to use them on our coaches but they take quite a lot of electrical juice compared to the modern truck heaters.

 

Think that the majority of DMU's are owned by a group based at the railway and unsure if they would be willing to have stock used as hauled vehicles.

[PenrithBeacon]

What is implied in the phrase 'the right to use the railway'?

Edited April 28, 2021 by PenrithBeacon

[phil-b259]

3 minutes ago, PenrithBeacon said:

What is implied in the phrase 'the right to use the railway'?

 

Ordinarily I would assume that that means the Trust has taken over responsibility for the Light Railway Order / Transport and Works Act from the PLC which is a legal pre-requsite for the railway to run.

 

However my understanding was that the entity which has gone into liquidation is the PLC and they weren't the holders of said orders in the first place precisely because of the need to protect the railway if the PLC went under!

 

The trackbed is owned by the County Council (leased to the trust, not the PLC), the Trust own the track and associated railway infrastructure so no issues there.

 

The PLC does own quite a lot of passenger rolling stock which would be helpful in running the railway but even there the trust do own some rolling stock of their own accord.

 

Thus its probably just a journalist putting their own spin on a press release without knowing the full background details.

[john new]

21 minutes ago, PenrithBeacon said:

What is implied in the phrase 'the right to use the railway'?

My past management experience suggests it is exactly what it says. The PLC had within their remit the necessary rights to directly operate the railway; therefore an asset of the PLC. This was a logical situation separating business operating risks from the historical side, and all hunky-dory until something goes wrong and the PLC fails financially. (Not commenting on that issue). If the Trust want to continue to run they had to buy those railway running rights from the Administrator who's job it is to try and get money for the disposable assets in order to try to satisfy the creditors.

 

Edit - however @phil-b259 in his reply typed whilst I was typing this suggests the statutory rights were not with the PLC; therefore perhaps it was some other form of operating agreement. Whatever it was though the implication is it had to be bought by the Trust in order to secure running rights, or to cancel/buy out a contract that some other entity might also have bought.  All in all though it appears good news so we don't need to know the exact why and wherefore, just be pleased it has been achieved.

 

Edited April 28, 2021 by john new
Added the extra note.

[Brinkly]

I have just donated the cost of a fare to them. It is such a horrid situation they find themselves in. I have only travelled on the line once as a kid, but remember being incredibly taken with Llangollen station in its BR WR paint scheme. It really inspired my interest 1950s Western Region steam. 

 

Be such a shame if it went. 

 

Nick.

[phil-b259]

7 minutes ago, Brinkly said:

 

Be such a shame if it went. 

 

Nick.

 

It won't (as a result of the PLC going bust)

 

But thats why its prudent that Heritage railways structure themselves correctly.

 

In most cases you vest ownership of the infrastructure, locos, etc and the LRO / TWA in a Trust and have the PLC merely as an operating arm.

 

Again leases for stuff like the trackbed where owned by 3rd parties should also be done through the Trust.

 

From what I remember the Llangollen has followed this model and although its going to be slightly short of carriages plus workshop capacity (I assume the workshop assets will be sold off by the liquidators)  the bulk of the line is safe and more importantly enough equipment is available for the trust to run a train service.

[Brinkly]

13 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

It won't (as a result of the PLC going bust)

 

But thats why its prudent that Heritage railways structure themselves correctly.

 

In most cases you vest ownership of the infrastructure, locos, etc and the LRO / TWA in a Trust and have the PLC merely as an operating arm.

 

Again leases for stuff like the trackbed where owned by 3rd parties should also be done through the Trust.

 

From what I remember the Llangollen has followed this model and although its going to be slightly short of carriages plus workshop capacity (I assume the workshop assets will be sold off by the liquidators)  the bulk of the line is safe and more importantly enough equipment is available for the trust to run a train service.

 

Thanks, Phil. That is good to know. I must admit, I only came across this thread today and was completely unaware of their situation. I've donated to the Swanage line a couple of times since the first lockdown, as I know they were struggling at one point. 

 

All the best,

 

Nick.

[phil-b259]

1 hour ago, john new said:

My past management experience suggests it is exactly what it says. The PLC had within their remit the necessary rights to directly operate the railway; therefore an asset of the PLC. This was a logical situation separating business operating risks from the historical side, and all hunky-dory until something goes wrong and the PLC fails financially. (Not commenting on that issue). If the Trust want to continue to run they had to buy those railway running rights from the Administrator who's job it is to try and get money for the disposable assets in order to try to satisfy the creditors.

 

 

 

I don't dispute that something may need to have been bought back off the PLC - but whatever it was, it wasn't a 'make or break' thing for the railway as a whole.

 

For example if the LRO / TWA had been in the hands of the PLC then I understand that the Trust would have had to have applied for a new one from the ORR (such things cannot legally be transferred from one party to another IIRC) which would have taken an awful lot of time and money decimating any chance of opening over the summer.

Edited April 28, 2021 by phil-b259

[adb968008]

Serviceable mk1’s in good condition aren't the easiest things to find.

I suspect there will be some competition for them.

That said if the jewel is the catering car at £30k, the rest aren't exactly eye watering amounts...

 

most important thing is to secure the stock.

if funds are short, I suppose individual members could pool resource, buy them, and maybe set up a lend-to buy arrangement with the railway so the line can acquire them back as resources permit ?

 

i’m sure they could find several members with less than an annual ISA’s worth of cash for such an arrangement ?

[uax6]

Out of the auction list l found the machine tools the more worrying items up for sale, without these maintaining any sort of vehicle at the railway will be more difficult, as you will have to contract out for all sorts of easy jobs...

 

Whether they need a 50T crane is open to debate, but certainly the workshop needs machines.

 

Andy G

[Mike Bellamy]

4 minutes ago, uax6 said:

the workshop needs machines.

 

Agreed - but are these now surplus to requirements with the closure of the contract engineering side of the business where there were questions raised about the quality of work done - for example the new build Patriot - which led to the financial claims against the company.

[phil-b259]

57 minutes ago, Mike Bellamy said:

 

Agreed - but are these now surplus to requirements.....

 

Are they?

 

Who was doing all the regular maintenance / repairs / restoration on the home fleet ? I doubt Llangollen had two completely separate workshops for contract work and the home fleet!

 

Imagine the Severn Valley or the Bluebell with their loco workshops stripped bare - its not going to be easy to keep the railway going for long.

 

Granted some of the equipment and tools the PLC owned may well have fallen into the 'nice to have' rather than 'essential' category but even so I would imagine that there is some stuff the Trust will need to buy back from the administrators to help keep the railway running.

 

 

[Zomboid]

You don't need a lot of equipment to keep up with basic maintenance. A lot of railways don't have the capacity to do major work and overhauls, so they'll just have to contact that stuff out.

 

I think that if the rolling stock in question is owned privately then it would normally be the owners' responsibility to arrange overhauls and major repairs (based on the few examples I have any knowledge of), depending on the agreement with the host railway. I would speculate that any operating agreements were with the operating company - i.e. the PLC, so presumably wouldn't be valid now that the PLC has folded.

[RJS1977]

The maintenance equipment appears to be quite low-priced and individual items certainly not beyond the reach of 'average income' individuals. Perhaps the Trust could arrange a scheme where individuals could agree to try to buy certain items for the railway to avoid the prospect of would-be donors bidding against each other for them!

[Wheatley]

17 hours ago, PenrithBeacon said:

What is implied in the phrase 'the right to use the railway'?

Good question. As per mine of 2nd March (before the discussion turned into a pasty-fest), the DfT appear to think the Trust already held the TWO

 

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/wsi/2010/2136/contents/made

[AMJ]

You should find that all railways have trust/society and a Ltd/PLC to keep legal and financial limitations away from the society/trust which is why when you look at Elsecar site they are working in the background upon ways to continue.

[Steamport Southport]

6 hours ago, uax6 said:

Out of the auction list l found the machine tools the more worrying items up for sale, without these maintaining any sort of vehicle at the railway will be more difficult, as you will have to contract out for all sorts of easy jobs...

 

Whether they need a 50T crane is open to debate, but certainly the workshop needs machines.

 

Andy G

 

The crane is the priority. As is the Mark 3 functions car and disabled access Mark 1. The rest of the coaches are next in the line if funds permit.

 

The workshop tools were from the engineering side of the business. They weren't for normal use and aren't vital. Any needed can be replaced at a later date.

 

Anyone wanting to give, here's the Rolling Stock Appeal. Which is separate to the other appeal.

 

https://llangollenrailway.enthuse.com/cf/rolling-stock-appeal

 

 

Jason

Edited April 29, 2021 by Steamport Southport

[Siberian Snooper]

I  would say that the very basic machine tools, would be a lathe and a vertical mill. nice to have  a radial arm drill, horizontal mill and a shaping machine. These can usually be bought for reasonable sums of money from, yes you've guessed it, bankrupt stock sales.

[96701]

On 29/04/2021 at 13:46, Steamport Southport said:

 

The crane is the priority.

 

 

Jason

I would suggest that the Atlas and the 12t Plasser Crane would be more versatile for railway maintenance than a 50t crane.

[Steamport Southport]

On 04/05/2021 at 01:46, 96701 said:

I would suggest that the Atlas and the 12t Plasser Crane would be more versatile for railway maintenance than a 50t crane.

 

Suggest all you want. I'm not in charge of purchasing.   

 

I was just passing on information garnered from people I knew when I was a member, so that people are a bit more informed and not speculating. I haven't been a member for nearly twenty years so I'm certainly not speaking with any official voice.

 

I was told the priority is the coaches with disability access and the crane. With the strange function coach with BR Mark 3 parts being higher than the normal Mark Ones as it was used for things like weddings which was a big form of income.

 

 

 

 

BTW the RMB has already gone. Spotted going east. No idea of destination but I believe it's the Spa Valley. Not a railway I'm familiar with.